Breaking into rooms, stirring discontent, both NOW BANNABLE

Oldman Robustin · Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:41 am

>Fresh round
>You assistant now
>Type in "RIOT!" then run off to see if something inspires you

*BWOINK*

Stickymayhem: Don't do that, it might inspire greytiding, greytiding is illegal now
Me: ...

>See conference room
>Get inspiration
>Break in and steal carpet
>Announce to others that we're going to carpet the bridge
>False-wall into the bridge and begin removing tiles
>Myself and 2 others are killed in large explosions without further warning
>Bridge and conference room now have bomb-sized hull-breaches

Stickmayhem: I told you greytiding is against the rules.
Stickmayhem: This is a new policy, we all agreed that greytide is shit and needs to go

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not even sure I can string together a coherent, appropriate sentence for how unbelievably short-sighted and shitty this is.

There has always been a relatively clear line between Greytide Lite(TM) and Grieftide. I could accept previous crackdowns against greytide since they were at least rational, breaking into the brig FNR can be frustrating as security, stealing critical equipment and then disappearing into maintenance is really dickish, disabling power in an area is a level of hostility you should only expect from antags...

But this? PLAY NICE, DONT SAY REBELLIOUS THINGS, DONT BREAK ANYTHING, DONT TOUCH ANYTHING WITHOUT PERMISSION, DONT MOVE CARPET, DONT ALTER THE STATION, DON'T ENTER UNAUTHORIZED AREAS, ETC... is beyond the pale of reason. Which team of fucking mental athletes on the adminbus determined that this was the best balance for tgstation without consulting or informing a single member of the actual fucking community?

Between this and the feedback thread incident, I'm rapidly losing faith in the ability for admins, coders, moderators, etc. to self-police. Every other decision I've seen come down the pipe lately look like someone took a random spin on the wheel of "LETS FUCK UP SHIT THAT PERFECTLY FINE BEFORE".

I'll also preempt the shittiest most cliched excuse I've heard for greytide crackdowns. I've probably played security more than anyone responsible for making this awful decision. When greytide became grieftide, I agree, it was a detriment to the ground... but I actually ENJOY security roles more when I get some variety in my work. Between hunting grizzled murderers lurking in maint, I actually HAVE FUN(TM) busting low level offenders who aren't going to try and kill me when I make an arrest. If a greyshirt is trying to dodge security after stealing a monkey from genetics, I'm going to "EXPERIENCE POSITIVE FEELINGS"(C) chasing him down and catch him. It breaks up the monotony of so many rounds where you can go 30 minutes without getting a report of actual hostile, criminal activity.

I mean is it even that hard to maintain a common sense policy on this, or are we just going to throw logic out the fucking window and ban all crime as GREYTIDE? (WHICH UNLIKE THE NAME IMPLIES, APPARENTLY EXISTS IN A BLACK AND WHITE UNIVERSE WHERE TIDING FOR BRIG GEAR AND TIDING FOR CARPET ARE SEEN AS EQUALS)

Low-level crimes are part of SS13's lifeblood and it makes my round on both sides of the conflict more enjoyable. I am not going to have fun as assistant or security if all crimes are now bannable by admins and I'm left for changelings alone to create an interesting 90-minute round for me. Please exercise some common sense, the mere fact that bridge was fucking blown up to punish us indicates that the people enforcing this rule could use a refresher on it.

For posterity, this is now the punishment for stealing carpet on SS13, this reeks of rational decision making and an educate change in policy based on consensus between players and administrators:

mrpain · Post by **mrpain** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:54 am #33072

I think threatening to greytide and actually greytiding should be considered two different things

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:57 am #33073

I agree at least in that a lot of decisions seem to have been made and are pending that are, like you said, adding restrictions to things for no reason.

I agree that we have to be really careful about how we perceive some of the chaos that happens on the station, that we should actively try to protect and promote some of it as random fun.

But I do have some misgivings with your argument, mainly that

I mean is the arithmetic here even that hard?

IF PERSONAL ENJOYMENT OF AN ACTIVITY > TOTAL DETRIMENT TO OTHER PLAYER'S ENJOYMENT OF ROUND = ACTIVITY SHOULD NOT BE BANNED, LET SECURITY DEAL WITH IT IF IT VIOLATES SPACE LAW.

is incredibly self-centered. It seems to say to me that as long as I am REALLY enjoying the damage I am causing more than it's pissing someone else off, it's okay! As long as my personal enjoyment of THING is more than the suffering I cause as a result of THING, it's okay.

And that's a really, really shitty attitude to bring to the table.

I mean, it's almost psychopathic if you think about it. I can murder you and skin you alive because you only die once but I'll laugh and remember how much fun I had doing it to you for the rest of my life!

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:03 am #33074

im calling the fucking cops holy shit

Oldman Robustin · Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:03 am

An0n3 wrote: IF PERSONAL ENJOYMENT OF AN ACTIVITY > TOTAL DETRIMENT TO OTHER PLAYER'S ENJOYMENT OF ROUND = ACTIVITY SHOULD NOT BE BANNED, LET SECURITY DEAL WITH IT IF IT VIOLATES SPACE LAW.

is incredibly self-centered. It seems to say to me that as long as I am REALLY enjoying the damage I am causing more than it's pissing someone else off, it's okay! As long as my personal enjoyment of THING is more than the suffering I cause as a result of THING, it's okay.

And that's a really, really shitty attitude to bring to the table.

I mean, it's almost psychopathic if you think about it. I can murder you and skin you alive because you only die once but I'll laugh and remember how much fun I had doing it to you for the rest of my life!

I should edit it to say that I only meant this to cover low-level offenses. Directly harming someone or placing them in a round-ending position, shouldn't work even if it's the best moment of your goddamn life.

Basically give assistants some leeway in creating "FUN" on the station, even if someone has to repair the glass afterward.

youngbuckliontiger · Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:06 am

admins blow up bridge because someone unauthorized is in there?
dat admin abuse doe
thats like ic issue and security should be sent in to deal with that shit...

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:06 am #33077

Pretty sure nuking the bridge isn't the solution here.

Post by **MMMiracles** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:14 am #33079

I was one of the few observing that round this happened, and from what I saw:

Round started with the 'RIOT" thing, a few started prying up tiles randomly in the storage. It migrated into breaking into the side room above the HoP office, still prying tiles.
Even after the first warning with the 'cookie' message from central command, they still insisted on false walling into the bridge and continuing to pry up tiles. Then the gibbing happened.
The explosions were too much, though.

Probably could of been handled a lot better by the admins that were online at the time, but it -really- doesn't give the excuse that you should have some sort of leeway to cause shit just because you're an assistant. Even if the intentions in the end were to remodel like you said, it still looked a hell of a lot like 3 shitlers in gray deciding they feel the need to pry up tiles and break into the bridge just for the fun of it, at least from my perspective.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:16 am #33080

I know recently there's been talk about rediscovering the "teleport to admin prison" function so hopefully going forward there wont be people creating holes to space in vital areas of the station to punish players.

Oldman Robustin wrote:I should edit it to say that I only meant this to cover low-level offenses. Directly harming someone or placing them in a round-ending position, shouldn't work even if it's the best moment of your goddamn life.

Basically give assistants some leeway in creating "FUN" on the station, even if someone has to repair the glass afterward.

Right, and I'm taking that math to a really far out extreme. A way to reword your sentiment (or what I think is your sentiment) might simply be "If enough people are enjoying something crazy, it's okay if a few people aren't."

And that's kind of been the underlying philosophy behind admin events? I think? That it's okay to disturb the round and maybe even get a couple people killed in the ensuing carnage if the event is spectacular enough and entertains enough people.

The difficulty is in how you might try to alter server culture and get more people to warm up to the idea of that chaos. What would be the difference between an "assistant event" vs. "grey tide". I mean, after all what's the actual difference between an "admin event" and "admin abuse"?

How much fun everyone has with it.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:29 am #33081

Bombing aside, the mob-mentality on sibyl is fucking garbage.
There's a reason screaming AI ROGUE for no reason is against the rules, because at least 3 people will believe you and parrot it themselves, eventually causing the rest of the station to believe it and arm up to go on a witch hunt. Meanwhile absolutely nobody even cares to check it themselves, card it, or reset the AI. Nope, gotta valid the shit out of the AI.
Same shit happens with "GREY TIDE!"
Tards will start smashing everything around the place because someone threw the folding chair.

Oldman Robustin · Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:41 am

Saegrimr wrote:Bombing aside, the mob-mentality on sibyl is fucking garbage.
There's a reason screaming AI ROGUE for no reason is against the rules, because at least 3 people will believe you and parrot it themselves, eventually causing the rest of the station to believe it and arm up to go on a witch hunt. Meanwhile absolutely nobody even cares to check it themselves, card it, or reset the AI. Nope, gotta valid the shit out of the AI.
Same shit happens with "GREY TIDE!"
Tards will start smashing everything around the place because someone threw the folding chair.

As someone who routinely would yell chants in support of greytide, I can assure you "critical fucking mass" for greytide is getting 2 other people to commit the lowest level of criminal infraction with you.

I wish I could detach myself from reality and pretend that even the smallest source of rabble-rousing in radio resulting in an unstoppable snowball effect of shitty griefing, but that's simply not the truth... no matter how convenient it is for you to believe it.

The most "AI ROGUE" will ever get you is a bored RD who will ask for a lawcheck in radio and then move on when it spouts asimov. I'm not even trying to defend that actual behavior here, I'm just attacking what you're using to support banning all rabble-rousing.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:49 am #33085

Anecdotes are cool and all, but i've banned people post core breakin to laser the AI and the person who started screaming about it twice in recent memory. Again, theres a reason its even in the rules. If it wasn't a problem it wouldn't be there.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:50 am #33086

Yeah, if you want to start a something wacky and fun for the station starting out by screaming for everyone to start going nuts in their own way...not really getting that off on the best foot.

I'm going to keep using the admin event comparison because I feel like it's relevant in a lot of ways. Here's the rub:

A brand new admin who has never had the chance to push the buttons before but played the game a lot is probably going to have a lot of ideas for fun events, but they obviously lack experience in how to balance them out. And that's really the heart of it, is making sure the challenge is stiff enough to be a battle but lax enough to not be a massacre...how many initial xeno players is just right? How many TC's do I give this guy? Making sure the weird roleplay thing involves enough players and has a big enough impact that it's worth the distraction, but doesn't ruin the whole round.

How do you learn that? By trying and failing. You'll know if something was right when enough people are happy something happened and the sticklers are either in short supply or just tolerant enough to not care.

Causing a shitstorm as an assistant is kinda similar in that, if you want to do it right you should be thinking about the situation you're creating and who it'll involve and what they're likely to think about it. But of course a brand new player isn't going to know how to do that right. That's why someone appears for the first time, beats someone to death with a fire extinguisher or roleplays "the serial killer" and thinks they were doing some neat and interesting but it turns out no that was only neat and interesting for yourself.

What I'm getting at is: I believe there's a really thin razor's edge you can ride, where you CAN run around causing trouble and being a shitty assistant but you do it in a way that is ACTUALLY fun for other people. And we should have at least some flex room for people to try to be that good at it. Because when it works it's fucking hilarious, and a HUUUUUUGE portion of all of our best "One time I saw the funniest shit happen when..." stories involve someone attempting that kind of fuckery and nailing it.

The bottomline is that a lot of people are just plain selfish and terrible in their attempts at hitting it. And it makes people not want to give that kind of humor a chance. Because everyone is tired of people trying and failing three million times over four years, for the handful of times it worked.

If you want to be an assistant and grey tide to create some chaos on the station ostensibly to entertain others, you should be planning that more and thinking about how people are likely to respond to it. You're up on stage playing to a crowd when you do that. If the audience doesn't like it you don't get to say "well it was just over their heads" or "they're too picky!". You're just not doing the thing. Now get off the stage.

Arete · Post by **Arete** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:59 am #33089

Cracking down on greytide in general is something that's necessary to improve the quality of play on the server, but it might be a good idea to draw the line at "interferes with other people's round." Like, if the CMO wants to check the crew monitoring console without having to worry about greytiders pickpocketing him, he should be able to shout "Everyone out!" with the understanding that it doesn't become an OOC issue unless they refuse.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 3:04 am #33091

It's a little depressing to think about how much wasted potential there is in the tools and things we have vs. the execution of those ideas.

Stomping Ian to death to piss off the HoP is stupid and leads to a manhunt.

Kidnapping Ian and sending the HoP pictures of a bunch of assistants in balaclavas pointing guns at him demanding a ransom for his precious dog is probably also going to lead to a manhunt, but at least you tried to do something.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 3:08 am #33092

Oldman Robustin wrote:>Fresh round
>You assistant now
>Type in "RIOT!" then run off to see if something inspires you

*BWOINK*

Stickymayhem: Don't do that, it might inspire greytiding, greytiding is illegal now
Me: ...

>See conference room
>Get inspiration
>Break in and steal carpet
>Announce to others that we're going to carpet the bridge
>False-wall into the bridge and begin removing tiles
>Myself and 2 others are killed in large explosions without further warning
>Bridge and conference room now have bomb-sized hull-breaches

Stickmayhem: I told you greytiding is against the rules.
Stickmayhem: This is a new policy, we all agreed that greytide is shit and needs to go

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How did the bridge explode? The OP implies that Sticky exploded the bridge to stop some assistants having some fun.
griffon banhe

Oldman Robustin · Fri Oct 03, 2014 4:02 am

I should've implied it even heavier then. One of the admins present did gib all of us in multiple hull-breaching explosions.

Bluespace · Post by **Bluespace** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 4:09 am #33106

>spawn as assistant
>there is lke 15 assistants, people are going oh god because there's so many
>Oldman Robustin says "RIOT RIOT BREAK THINGS!"
>Mayan Steve says "YES RIOT"
literal definition of greytide. stop. you are better than this.
not mayan he's just bad but you do not need to go the route of bryce pax mister oldman.

also i'm fairly certain gamarr dropped the bombs because he kinda seems like the person who would do that.

Brotemis · Post by **Brotemis** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 4:39 am #33108

Start banning chuckle fucks who go "Riot!" At roundstart. Greytide a shit.

And simply laugh at those who claim "I didn't actually do anything! I just said to riot :^)"

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:29 am #33116

whats with all the word crimes now
saying "riot" or "ayy lmao" will get you instantly banned
i cant tell if thats hilarious or just pitiful

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:50 am #33121

Oh thank god somebody is actually enforcing the rules now.

Bombing was a mistake though, in my opinion. Bannu for 15 minutes instead.

You people who complain about coders and admins completely forget, all the fucking time, that there is almost always another party in the conflict.

As a security player, it's terrible to deal with a bunch of fuckers breaking into places, who then proceed to fight back and scream "HUR DUR WE DIDN'T DO ANYTHIN" when I try to get them the fuck out of secure areas.

I don't even know why you people always pretend that blatant griffing is "no big deal", "we don't do anything", "inspiration" and overall completely normal.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:00 am #33123

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:As a security player, it's terrible to deal with a bunch of fuckers breaking into places, who then proceed to fight back and scream "HUR DUR WE DIDN'T DO ANYTHIN" when I try to get them the fuck out of secure areas.

Screaming for all the assistants to start rioting at roundstart is kinda how this whole greytiding thing started in the first place, or at least the period of time from which we coined the term. It's bad.

Like Sae said, it's functionally the same as screaming BORGS ARE ROUGE just to see what happens.
And what happens in that situation is you get banned.

But if Oldman's version of events is true, he didn't fight back against anybody or even come into conflict with any other players over his actions. He busted into the bridge and ripped up some floor tiles.

mrpain · Post by **mrpain** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:01 am #33124

Oldman Robustin wrote:
Saegrimr wrote:Bombing aside, the mob-mentality on sibyl is fucking garbage.
There's a reason screaming AI ROGUE for no reason is against the rules, because at least 3 people will believe you and parrot it themselves, eventually causing the rest of the station to believe it and arm up to go on a witch hunt. Meanwhile absolutely nobody even cares to check it themselves, card it, or reset the AI. Nope, gotta valid the shit out of the AI.
Same shit happens with "GREY TIDE!"
Tards will start smashing everything around the place because someone threw the folding chair.
As someone who routinely would yell chants in support of greytide, I can assure you "critical fucking mass" for greytide is getting 2 other people to commit the lowest level of criminal infraction with you.

I wish I could detach myself from reality and pretend that even the smallest source of rabble-rousing in radio resulting in an unstoppable snowball effect of shitty griefing, but that's simply not the truth... no matter how convenient it is for you to believe it.

The most "AI ROGUE" will ever get you is a bored RD who will ask for a lawcheck in radio and then move on when it spouts asimov. I'm not even trying to defend that actual behavior here, I'm just attacking what you're using to support banning all rabble-rousing.

I've been lynched plenty of times as an Asimov AI without anyone ever bothering to card me. Sometimes I'd plead with them to card me and instead they'd laser me to less than 10% integrity.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:08 am #33127

An0n3 wrote:But if Oldman's version of events is true, he didn't fight back against anybody or even come into conflict with any other players over his actions. He busted into the bridge and ripped up some floor tiles.

That doesn't really matter. He opened up a big possibility that at least SOMEBODY will fight back, kill pets, steal things, whatever. At the very least the responsibility for mob's actions should be on instigator as well.

I won't believe in the slightest that if you put a bunch of high-risk items in front of such mob, they won't get stolen, for example.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:24 am #33128

That sets a wacky precedent. But maybe there's already some ruling for that?

I'm pretty sure in the past someone had shouted for the borgs to get blown for "fun" and it resulted in two or three asimov borgs getting blasted. That player ended up getting banned for the number of days as if he had killed that many number of players FNR. I think the RD got some kind of lecture not to do that if they didn't have a better reason than "someone randomly told me too".

That's a little different though, because it's a quick single mistake with huge ramifications. Push one button because you think the station is in danger, it's easy to see the person who made the false call is responsible for that.

A person running around looting and rioting and being a shit because someone yelled over the radio for them to do it? There's a lot more personal agency involved with that.

I see an apple and an orange, but I can kinda see how someone could see two apples.

Oldman Robustin · Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:25 am

Bluespace wrote:>spawn as assistant
>there is lke 15 assistants, people are going oh god because there's so many
>Oldman Robustin says "RIOT RIOT BREAK THINGS!"
>Mayan Steve says "YES RIOT"
literal definition of greytide. stop. you are better than this.
not mayan he's just bad but you do not need to go the route of bryce pax mister oldman.

also i'm fairly certain gamarr dropped the bombs because he kinda seems like the person who would do that.

Don't put me in quotes if you're just going to make up what I said

I literally said one word "RIOT!" and ran off.

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Oh thank god somebody is actually enforcing the rules now.

Bombing was a mistake though, in my opinion. Bannu for 15 minutes instead.

You people who complain about coders and admins completely forget, all the fucking time, that there is almost always another party in the conflict.

As a security player, it's terrible to deal with a bunch of fuckers breaking into places, who then proceed to fight back and scream "HUR DUR WE DIDN'T DO ANYTHIN" when I try to get them the fuck out of secure areas.

I don't even know why you people always pretend that blatant griffing is "no big deal", "we don't do anything", "inspiration" and overall completely normal.

@Brotemis and Lo6a, you guys are bordering delusional here. Are you all that intent on completely divorcing this server from reality? OH GOD SOMEONE SAID SOMETHING THAT MARGINALLY INCREASED THE LIKELYHOOD THAT SOMEONE ELSE WILL COMMIT MINOR SPACELAW INFRACTIONS!!! BANS AND ADMIN INTERVENTION ARE THE ONLY WAY WE CAN DEAL WITH SUCH A MASSIVE THREAT TO THE WELL BEING OF THIS SERVER!

MY GOD, FUCKING PETS MIGHT EVEN GET HARMED, BREAK OUT BLUESPACE ARTILLERY, BLOWING OPEN THE BRIDGE AND KILLING 3 CREW MEMBERS IS CLEARLY THE ONLY FUCKING WAY WE CAN PREVENT THIS "CARPET REDECORATION MADNESS" FROM SPREADING AND POSSIBLY KILLING PUN PUN.

I'm convinced some of these admins are just posting the most inane, idiotic, bullshit statements they can muster and seeing how far they can push it until someone calls them out. Lo6A is seriously using minor theft and pet killings to justify banning/exploding players?!

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:26 am #33130

If you want to be a rev head, roll for it and do it in a rev round.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:28 am #33131

No matter your opinion, I think essentially calling in a NT Battleship and firing on the Bridge to kill three people who are redecorating it is way over the line and overkill.

I mean, why not be more subtle and just put a bounty on their heads and tell Security to capture them, or just teleport them away. Instead you blow up the bridge which effects the entire crew, or at least the entire command staff.

Over some bloody carpet.

Oldman Robustin · Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:43 am

An0n3 wrote:That sets a wacky precedent. But maybe there's already some ruling for that?

I'm pretty sure in the past someone had shouted for the borgs to get blown for "fun" and it resulted in two or three asimov borgs getting blasted. That player ended up getting banned for the number of days as if he had killed that many number of players FNR. I think the RD got some kind of lecture not to do that if they didn't have a better reason than "someone randomly told me too".

That's a little different though, because it's a quick single mistake with huge ramifications. Push one button because you think the station is in danger, it's easy to see the person who made the false call is responsible for that.

A person running around looting and rioting and being a shit because someone yelled over the radio for them to do it? There's a lot more personal agency involved with that.

There is a startling lack of logic in this thread, I'm glad someone with a purple name is still bringing some to the table.

Of course I'm opposed to both aspects of my admin interaction here. Punishing people for fucking rabble-rousing on radio is the absolute quickest way to kill 50% of the silly, entertaining shit that happens on this station. Why? Because you honestly think 20+ assistants are all going to rise up in unison and blow up the brig because someone typed something fucking stupid in common chat?

The other aspect is the "minor crime = greytide = ban" aspect. The fact that weve expanded bannable greytide to "stealing carpet and putting it on the bridge" is just unfathomable. The fact that admins are sitting here seriously trying to make coherent arguments for banning carpet theft is beyond the pale of reason. We've already had multiple sec players (as opposed to admins who can count their security games on one hand, cough) testify that low-level infractions from non-antags keep the round interesting and add variety to my job. I could go one for pages about how relying exclusively on antags to generate conflict on the station is a horrible idea that takes an interesting and dynamic interaction on the station and brutally flattens it to one dimension - but that really should be self-evidence to anyone who actually plays this game. If admins want to go full gestapo on the playerbase, there should at least be a fucking discussion with the communtiy first - to see if thats really what the playerbase (or security) wants, as opposed to secret policy changes pushed through the adminbus without any warning or dialogue.

Oldman Robustin · Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:46 am

Pandarsenic wrote:If you want to be a rev head, roll for it and do it in a rev round.

AKA I only read the title and here is my stunning contribution to this dialogue

/golfclap

Equivocating classic greytide "bust open the brig, loot the weapons, kill anyone who fights back" with what happened here "Lets break into conference room, steal carpet, and then put that carpet on the bridge instead" as the same fucking thing is the kind of idiotic black-white stupidity that baffles me.

scaredofshadows · Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:51 am

I'll be having a chat with stickymayhem about the usage of admin explosions in this situation. For now, he's been bumped down to observer temporarily.

This is my quick take on this situation - I want people to be able to greytide. I want people to be able to form a mob and do something interesting or hilarious. I think everyone here agrees that a greytide mob murdering everyone can't be allowed. The point of disagreement is where do we draw the line with greytide? Do we allow an army of assistants to break into the bridge? What happens when the admins nudge security into handling the greytide in-character and it results in a bloodbath with tons of ban appeal and ban request threads?

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:04 am #33142

Smashing open the bridge can cause actual problems, CJS. You know it can. As big as Sticky applying random boom to the problem? No, not really that severe. But ruining shit for random other people, even heads of staff, unprompted, is a little.... like, "Dude, what?"

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:08 am #33147

Oldman you're literally bryce pax: sybil edition

Except bryce doesn't usually cunt on the forums outside of his ban appeal threads

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:42 am #33161

Oldman Robustin wrote:I should've implied it even heavier then. One of the admins present did gib all of us in multiple hull-breaching explosions.

Bluespace wrote:also i'm fairly certain gamarr dropped the bombs because he kinda seems like the person who would do that.

If Sticky, Gamarr, whomever, was not an admin. For sake of discussion, let's say they were a toxins scientist. The RD, just so they can go on the bridge, again, purposes of discussion. So the RD walks onto the bridge and sees a few assistants, maybe three(?) tearing up the floor. One's crowbarring it up, one's running around doing nothing, and the third is...putting down carpet?
The three assistants see the RD and chant "GREY TIDE! GREY TIDE!" in unison, but continue to tear up floortiles, run around, and lay down carpet. Nobody's even throwing the ample floor tiles at the RD.
So the RD decides that he's had enough of this shit, especially that fucker Oldman Robustin, and he throws a bomb. Five adminPMs later, the RD is banned from Science and Command for a week and the game for three days, both for grief. You can't just throw bombs around willy-nilly at the slightest sign of maybe-trouble, y'know.

In case you're too lazy to read that and think about it, then...

Oldman Robustin wrote:I should've implied it even heavier then. One of the admins present did gib all of us in multiple hull-breaching explosions.

Translates directly to

Paraphrased wrote:"One of the admins present used a paper-thin excuse to detonate multiple explosions on a vital area of the station"

Then, even more, almost none of the admins in-thread acknowledged that. Not in-post, not when I pointed it out. Not a word until Scaredofshadows, the server host himself, said

I'll be having a chat with stickymayhem about the usage of admin explosions in this situation. For now, he's been bumped down to observer temporarily.

Somebody shit the bed. Hard. Definition of Grief hard. Bannable offense hard. Violating Rule One hard. And nobody even batted an eye.

Oldman Robustin · Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:43 am

Pandarsenic wrote:Smashing open the bridge can cause actual problems, CJS. You know it can. As big as Sticky applying random boom to the problem? No, not really that severe. But ruining shit for random other people, even heads of staff, unprompted, is a little.... like, "Dude, what?"

The simple answer to this is: SS13 is more interesting when station has to deal with problems that are more complex and exhibit greater social dynamics than "JOHNNY MURDERBONER IS EBOW'ING PEOPLE IN MAINT".

The worst I've seen (besides bluespace artillery) happen to a bridge intrusion is a melee between assistants and security, with every fucking assistant fully aware that harming security would result in a hard ban. It can be disruptive, but I get disrupted more on a daily basis slipping on fucking janitor puddles while a blob/nukeops/wizard is killing the station than by some harmless greyshitter who doesn't fuck with you when shit hits the fan.

I know I'm a broken record on this by now, but I'm not the only security player who enjoys breaking the tide. It's one of the few interesting things that security can participate in that doesn't involve valid-hunting in maintenance.

scaredofshadows wrote:I'll be having a chat with stickymayhem about the usage of admin explosions in this situation. For now, he's been bumped down to observer temporarily.

This is my quick take on this situation - I want people to be able to greytide. I want people to be able to form a mob and do something interesting or hilarious. I think everyone here agrees that a greytide mob murdering everyone can't be allowed. The point of disagreement is where do we draw the line with greytide? Do we allow an army of assistants to break into the bridge? What happens when the admins nudge security into handling the greytide in-character and it results in a bloodbath with tons of ban appeal and ban request threads?

I'm glad to see another even-handed response, especially from the head honcho. I think the best answer would come with drawing clearer lines for Greytide.

Invading the bridge can often produce the most entertaining and memorable events that often take place in an entire round, without causing any serious or lasting harm to the station (the bridge itself is largely symbolic) - but the Greytide need to understand what happens when security shows up. That means making it clear that doing anything that has a serious detriment on a security player's round (killing/critting them, stealing their ID, stripping them) should not be tolerated and if the Greytide get dunked they should understand they brought it upon themselves. Escalation to lethal by security should only occur as a last resort and with advanced warnings/opportunities to surrender, otherwise long brig sentences should be expected.

I don't see a problem with the above policy. It's relatively intuitive and allows assistants to create unique and interesting conflicts that don't have to end with a massive bodycount. If an admin is watching the situation play out, a Centcom warning that "Harmful actions against security will not be tolerated" would go a long ways to warn greyshirts that invading the bridge just let them murder security when they fight back. Likewise security should be cautioned if their first reaction is to gather the armory and spray lasers through the doors until nobody is left standing. Eliminating those extreme events would go a long way to encourage a happy middle ground and get rid of excuses from overzealous admins to outright ban a huge, sweeping category of behavior that is an overall positive addition to SS13 gameplay.

Of course this doesn't imply to critical areas like the brig or AI upload, there have already been precedents set for these and most players understand that invading these areas is possibly rule-breaking and will definitely not evoke mercy from security. It doesn't take much intelligence to see the difference between these cases and apply policy accordingly.

Incomptinence · Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:50 am

I think idle crew antics goes beyond into unlicensed antagonism when they actively fight one of the departments. Usually it is security they clash with but really no one should be treated so terribly.

A nice way to resolve this would have been giving them carpet for their dumb gimmick, but why spawn items when you can spawn explosions.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:55 am #33165

Here's my problem with that in particular.

It actually states in the rules lethal force is to be used against mobs too large to handle.
This however will inevitably lead the greyshits to escalate directly lethal force in (re?)-retaliation, and considering they easily outnumber sec 5-1 on average... its no contest.
Then you get the random ones off in other parts smashing windows with his tribal spear because he heard the word "grey" over the radio, invariably leading to more conflict with the crew as the people stationed there try to get them to fuck off out of their department.

Escalation is the problem. Fuck that, i'd rather see assistants actually fucking assisting than trying to play mini-rev outside of its (fucking awful garbage shitty clusterfuck) round type.

Yes yes, hypothetical/anecdotal situations aside these are things we've had to deal with before and are much more likely than you think.

I'd like to nominate CJS for adminobserver for about a week to just watch the brig.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:15 am #33167

Reflooring the bridge is assisting. It's just not asking first.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:17 am #33168

If this was honestly only about reflooring the bridge with no other variables involved, everybody in this thread should banned, me included.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:38 am #33172

What, then, is it about? Saying "Riot!" first thing? Breaking into the bridge? The ever-heinous unforgivable crime of vandalism?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:43 am #33174

Vandalism being escalated into a bloody Warship firing on the stations bridge to kill three vandalising assistants instead of getting Security to deal with it (Or the Sec Borg that is in Oldman's screenshot).

I play Security almost exclusively, and three dumb assistants remodelling the bridge should not be hard for a few Security Officers and a Sec borg to deal with in my expert opinion.

mrpain · Post by **mrpain** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:56 am #33175

scaredofshadows wrote: This is my quick take on this situation - I want people to be able to greytide. I want people to be able to form a mob and do something interesting or hilarious. I think everyone here agrees that a greytide mob murdering everyone can't be allowed. The point of disagreement is where do we draw the line with greytide? Do we allow an army of assistants to break into the bridge? What happens when the admins nudge security into handling the greytide in-character and it results in a bloodbath with tons of ban appeal and ban request threads?

OOC I dont mind it, to a certain point, but IC, if someone is being an annoying little shit, just keeps breaking into my area and just will not leave, I'm going to do something to him to make him either unwilling or unable to return, and I don't want to be punished OOC for doing that.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:58 am #33178

AFAIK you can already do almost anything to a intruder who is breaking into your department aside from killing them.

mrpain · Post by **mrpain** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 9:02 am #33180

Steelpoint wrote:AFAIK you can already do almost anything to a intruder who is breaking into your department aside from killing them.

I know Deuryn was a huge proponent of that, but I'm not entirely sure if he's really around anymore.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 10:30 am #33202

The problem is not vandalism itself, the problem is potential major things that can occur, such as fighting security who legitimately try to stop you or stealing important assets.

At the very fucking least the instigator should be responsible for everything the mob does. In addition, of course, to punishing people who actually do whatever it is they did.

Another problem is antagonists using this bullshit to kill someone and potentially start a bloodbath with other mobsters supporting them and security thinking of it as mob's doing, not individual's. I think this also should fall on the shoulders of instigator.

And you can laugh at pet killing all you want, but it can start bloodbaths. I've been killed multiple times because somebody somewhere killed a pet, not joking. It's enough for one asshole (or antag) to scream "CAPTAIN KILLED IAN" and all shit will break loose from that innocent mob you started.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 10:50 am #33206

mrpain wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:AFAIK you can already do almost anything to a intruder who is breaking into your department aside from killing them.
I know Deuryn was a huge proponent of that, but I'm not entirely sure if he's really around anymore.

That is the active policy. By extension, breakers-in at robotics may be considered volunteers for borging, etc.

My concern is (and this is going to be less than coherent at 3am), assistants running around breaking into places they don't really have any business because its "interesting" to fuck with other people is a total mystery for me. It gives the impression that assistant as a role is only interesting when you're breaking into places, stealing things, or otherwise provoking sec to chase you around. Its like a diet antag in that they can run around and break/steal shit but because they're not initiating conflict directly via combat, its fine. If we are working on the assumption that security will respond to deal with these things, are those same greys going to resist arrest? How much are they allowed to do to "defend themselves" from sec? I've met two greys out of countless that responded to arrest or attempted arrest with anything but saxing and "dindunuffin." (Who am I kidding, I've seen antags caught with ebows pull the same shit.) As nice as it is occasionally for sec to have some filler material, I'm not excited about the culture that says "rolled assistant, time to griff" and that includes towing the line with things that aren't looting armory and literally rioting but still amount to breaking into shit fnr etc.

As it is, "greytiding" will allways be a function of assistant numbers and as long as "maint crawling hobo" is a roundstart job that takes up 1/3 or more of server population, its not going to go away.
#removeassistant

Stickymayhem · Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:17 pm

Let me just start by saying I'm sorry for the explosions. They were overkill and hypocritical. I should have handled the matter OOCly. I repaired the holes very shortly afterwards. I just wanted to stop it after Oldman ignored my warning. I've had a chat with SoS about the use of the bombs and I regret handling it that way.

The actual actions you took were still unacceptable and would have been more appropriately punished with an assistant tempban or a server ban. SoS has said there will be a discussion on greytiding at some point.

Here are the logs: http://pastebin.com/UX99JMtM

We spoke in deadchat about it afterwards. Please read the logs if you care about what happened at all.

Sorry this post is far shorter than usual but I really must attend a lecture. I'll be happy to discuss everything further in a few hours when I return.

Antonkr · Post by **Antonkr** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:24 pm #33216

Just imagine something like this happening in real life.

"Uh hey aircraft carrier this is the destroyer we see some fucks have been uh putting carpet in your bridge but they are low rank enlisted who shouldnt be there."

LETS LIGHT UP THAT BRIDGE WITH AN EXOCET!

I have nothing of actual content to say minus that it's a hillariously bad reaction to an IC issue

Brotemis · Post by **Brotemis** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:43 pm #33221

Don't call me delusional then proceed to strawman argument.

The process goes 'Act like a greytiding idiot' > 'Get invariably killed or arrested' > 'Bitch and moan how you didn't even do anything harmful' > 'Leave a sour taste in EVERYONE'S mouth.'

I guarantee that just as salty as you are, there are far more people saltier about the regular bullshit they have to deal with because of individuals like you. Now tell me which is more important, one player being passed because they got their shit slapped for greytiding or multiple people/Security for having to put up with you or people like you every round every day.

Hibbles · Post by **Hibbles** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:00 pm #33241

Next time please put this in an admin complaint thread or something.

I'm on it.

EDIT: ADMIN LOG: HotelBravoLima/(Myriam Rathens) has added a ADMIN_TEMPBAN for stickymayhem (10080 minutes) with the reason: "(MANUAL BAN) Making the bridge explode and blowing up like three people in-game, a player who bombed would get at least this much if not more. " to the ban database.