Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

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Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby Dr_bee » Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:35 pm #393693

Revs, Clock Cult, and Blood Cult are some of the most despised round types. They dont really have a place on the server with how rarely security is staffed anymore.

Lack of security is only one problem, each mode has its own problems besides the fact that conversion as an ability is too powerful. mass conversion is basically the be all end all strategy.

Clock Cult is basically mass conversion with a free unassailable space base right now, and the coder in charge of the mode has mentioned being burned out working on it. With the glaring problem of mass conversion leading to 10 minutes of just waiting for the damn round to end.

Blood Cult has been foolishly buffed by giving the cultists full blown wizard spells as well as taser reflection shields that you can throw to AOE stun people as well as traitor bolas that cant be used by non-cultists. This basically has made the problem of calling the shuttle the moment that blood cult is called even worse, as with the current culture of no security as well as poorly thought out changes makes fighting the cult a fools errand.

Rev rounds have always been administrative nightmares as half the time non-revs murder each other out of pure paranoia and if the rev round does go normally the round is over in 15-20 minutes, making many of the jobs on the station pointless to do. If Rev rounds go poorly they can be hour long boring slogs of people whining in dead-chat while the last rev head or head of staff hides behind a hidden wall. The argument to keep revs as being a way for the server to "Blow off steam" is a poor one, as the server has been trying to move away from low RP team deathmatch bullshit for awhile.

Conversion modes arent really the direction the server needs to be going in anymore if balanced, fun, medium RP is what is desired. Removing them from rotation and making them admin only rounds until they can be changed to actually be fun and balanced, or the problem of people not playing sec is solved, would honestly be an improvement.



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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby leibniz » Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:49 pm #393695

We could actually consider doing a poll about removing conversion modes from one of the servers.
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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby EvilJackCarver » Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:04 pm #393700

tl;dr lower the weighted theoretical average of CA rounds, rework clock


I have made my view of conversion antag rounds pretty clear many a time already: I absolutely do not like them. During them, it is absolutely necessary for Security to become the Allgemeine-Schutzstaffel in order for a crew victory to be possible, which goes against the "medium RP" that was once the norm - you can't exactly do much roleplay when the officer comes in, silently Tases you, beats your head in with a stunstick, forces holywater down your throat, slaps an implant (or two) in you, then throws your ass out.

Clock cult and revs are the worst of the two in my opinion; I haven't seen much of bloodcult except that I know it's a little bit FNG-unfriendly.

Clockwork cult, in its current form from my observations (and I observe quite a bit1) is entirely skill based, and has a bit of a difficulty curve. Thus, it's more or less required that you seek out and get the most skilled players as soon as possible, which ends in one of two ways:
  1. You go to get the skilled player, are not skilled/not robust enough/cock up in some way, get the entire thing blown open in five minutes, and the crew wins.
  2. You successfully get the skilled player, that skilled player goes to get another, so on and so forth until you've converted all but five players in the entire round while the rest sit in deadchat for ten+ minutes wondering whether to be impressed or saddened at the crew's attempt to fight back2.

Revs is a 5-second game mode where revheads flash you and then you rush the heads of staff with the fireaxe and pray you get them horizontal before they get you horizontal. If it lasts longer than the damn shuttle call, it becomes a war of attrition (which loyalists and heads of staff will lose).

HOWEVER.

Despite my absolute disdain for conversion antags and my feeling that it does turn the RP down a bit, I still feel as if it's a necessary evil to mix the roundtypes up (even if it does feel like it happens a little bit often). Without it, it'd literally be nothing but traitor±ling, nukies, wizard, and extended.

It's not even a majority of rounds that there's a conversion mode going, either; the weighted theoretical average for conversion antag rounds at midpop is about 41%, but that still feels a little too often.

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2: Happened the round before I posted this response (round 85420).

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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby Shaps-cloud » Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:16 pm #393701

Rev is fine as is, its mercy is that it doesn't drag on for an entire hour most of the time and leads to some pretty good battles. The others... eh
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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby Dr_bee » Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:27 pm #393704

Shaps-cloud wrote:Rev is fine as is, its mercy is that it doesn't drag on for an entire hour most of the time and leads to some pretty good battles. The others... eh


Well it can always be repalced with the version that activates the nuke at 30 minutes in.

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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby EagleWiz » Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:40 pm #393748

Dr_bee wrote:Well it can always be repalced with the version that activates the nuke at 30 minutes in.


You know, we used to have a low RP deathmatch game mode that was great for blowing off steam, and that whichever team was ahead could win pretty quickly once they got a decently large advantage. It was called gangs.

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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby PKPenguin321 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:05 pm #393755

EagleWiz wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:Well it can always be repalced with the version that activates the nuke at 30 minutes in.


You know, we used to have a low RP deathmatch game mode that was great for blowing off steam, and that whichever team was ahead could win pretty quickly once they got a decently large advantage. It was called gangs.

Gang was inherently flawed but was good occasionally because when it worked the finale and payoff was great. I disagree with the notion that it was always quick though, it had a tendency to drag on when gangs were too hesitant to plant a dominator.

Dr_bee wrote:Rev rounds have always been administrative nightmares as half the time non-revs murder each other out of pure paranoia and if the rev round does go normally the round is over in 15-20 minutes, making many of the jobs on the station pointless to do. If Rev rounds go poorly they can be hour long boring slogs of people whining in dead-chat while the last rev head or head of staff hides behind a hidden wall.

You say this as a non-admin. When I admin a rev round, usually the only ahelps are things like "hey why is this guy attacking me I'm the CMO!" which they quickly come to understand on their own. There are occasionally big messes with ahelps, but that happens regardless of roundtype. If somebody is stalling and delaying the round, admins can give the round a nudge forwards (since I think we can all agree that stalling by hiding like that is pretty lame).
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PostThis post was deleted by Dr_bee on Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:11 pm.
Reason: Fucked up the quote

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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby Dr_bee » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:11 pm #393759

PKPenguin321 wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:Rev rounds have always been administrative nightmares as half the time non-revs murder each other out of pure paranoia and if the rev round does go normally the round is over in 15-20 minutes, making many of the jobs on the station pointless to do. If Rev rounds go poorly they can be hour long boring slogs of people whining in dead-chat while the last rev head or head of staff hides behind a hidden wall.

You say this as a non-admin. When I admin a rev round, usually the only ahelps are things like "hey why is this guy attacking me I'm the CMO!" which they quickly come to understand on their own. There are occasionally big messes with ahelps, but that happens regardless of roundtype. If somebody is stalling and delaying the round, admins can give the round a nudge forwards (since I think we can all agree that stalling by hiding like that is pretty lame).



I only say that because I have heard complaints before. take it with a grain of salt.

My primary problem with it is that it is kind of a boring TDM round that ends to early for any interesting progression to happen on the station and usually ends up as mass ghost chat salt if it doesnt end quickly.

If you die on nuke ops you at least get the joy of watching the nukies. Half the time rev rounds that go on for long enough are just the heads of staff camping the brig like assholes.

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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby Nilons » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:20 pm #393762

Conversion rounds aren't fun no matter what team you're on. Security:. Spend the whole round arresting and buckle cuffing people who just wanna play the game or die. Crew: get buckle cuffed for possibly the whole round within the rules. Antag: have less fun than if you rolled any other antag and make everyone else miserable
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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby PKPenguin321 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:24 pm #393764

CosmicScientist wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:the finale and payoff was great.

It was silent with the words SYSTEM OVERRIDE COMPLETE. That was maybe the only flaw in gang I couldn't see an equivalent to in other game modes.

I mean the finale itself, as in the siege as the entire crew converges on the dominator's location and the gang had to fight them off. It was a rush for both sides. Of course it didn't happen every time since sometimes the gang would wait an hour to convert or kill the entire crew before even planting the dominator (this was one of the known flaws (and also happens with clock cult hmm)) but when it did happen it was honestly such a good time.

Dr_bee wrote:My primary problem with it is that it is kind of a boring TDM round that ends to early for any interesting progression to happen on the station and usually ends up as mass ghost chat salt if it doesnt end quickly.

So you hate it when it's too short, but you also hate it when it goes too long. Not sure what it is you want.
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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby Dr_bee » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:31 pm #393768

PKPenguin321 wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:My primary problem with it is that it is kind of a boring TDM round that ends to early for any interesting progression to happen on the station and usually ends up as mass ghost chat salt if it doesnt end quickly.

So you hate it when it's too short, but you also hate it when it goes too long. Not sure what it is you want.


You are focusing on the length and not the fact that it is TDM. I hate the fact that it is just fucking TDM in a game that is supposed to be about roleplaying.

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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby oranges » Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:10 pm #393786

I hate the fact that it is just fucking TDM in a game that is supposed to be about roleplaying.


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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby Gigapuddi420 » Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:21 am #393996

EagleWiz wrote:You know, we used to have a low RP deathmatch game mode that was great for blowing off steam, and that whichever team was ahead could win pretty quickly once they got a decently large advantage. It was called gangs.


Hahaha, we must not have played the same mode. Gangs typically dragged out for a hour of suffering, both old gangs and robustins no security gangs. Basically it's a huge team death match where people didn't put down dominators until they had eliminated any possible opposition. Then you wait 5 minutes for the game to confirm what you already knew. Fuck gangs.
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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby Cobby » Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:44 am #394004

Cult was never a problem when conversion was difficult.

The problem with every conversion mode but rev is that it's arm racing against itself between "attack abilities need to be strong on their own in case cult doesn't have the numbers" and "conversion needs to be easy so you can start using the attack abilities". It's not even open-source autism because we've given an implied creative authority to both Robustin (blood) and Xhuis (clockcult).

"oh you need a stun since not a single person in a group of 5 can subdue someone while you convert him" "Oh yeah sometimes people don't coop and strip while you stun the guy so you need to soft-mute him too" "oh yeah sometimes having so many numbers makes it difficult to get by so you also need a surefire way to put cuffs on, here let me give you a spell that cuffs them" "Oh yeah sometimes other people spot you so you need a way to fight them here have some good armor" "Oh yeah sometimes you choose not to run away for some reason so here have a shield that blocks attacks and can be thrown to stun that also autorecalls to you haha"

...
...
...
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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby ShadowDimentio » Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:36 am #394011

Conversion has its flaws but they're excellent as a change of pace if nothing else, and that's pretty much the whole point of having multiple modes.
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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:35 am #394020

Revolution is the only fun conversion game mode I have played. As someone who mains security / heads, the pure fun of it is that it essentially is Team Deathmatch. Pure and simple Team Deathmatch. I'm not going to mince words here. It's Team Deathmatch.

What makes Revolution the most fun Team Deathmatch mode, however, is that there are NO gimmicks. Headrevs have a flash and a HUD. That's it. Revs get to use exclusively what is currently around them and nothing else. There are no magic antag powers (other then the flash conversion). Headrevs can be outed by deconverting revs and forcing them to list who converted them. Headrevs are forced to be active to get more conversions. Heads are forced to fight if they want a decent chance to win (and to avoid admin wrath). As long as you're fighting Implanted (or provably loyal) vs Non-Implanted, anything else goes.

People will whine about the long rounds, but I find them to be absolutely the most magical. The rounds where brig is gone or barely inhabitable. You have to be constantly moving to survive, against a horde that is undoubtedly better in numbers then your own. You have to use purely your wits and your robust combat skills to survive as possibly the sole remaining fighter, possibly against an AI that hates you as well, people who might have all access and the disposal of the most dangerous aspects of their department they can muster.
I've played an hour and a half long round where I was the HoS, brig was quickly lacking mostly in air, and I had to rely mostly on virus healing to not die, and had to endure a brig siege for the better part of an hour before I was the only one left (with my brothers in arms dying to keep me alive). Having to constantly battle both the clever revs and an AI that worked tirelessly to annoy me because muh human harm by depowering and bolting everything it could. Eventually I had to steal a space suit off a rev corpse to finally escape the brig, go manually subvert the AI, on its own sat, by myself (Delta upload woo), for 15 minutes having to take out every turret and break in from space, while fighting revs who came to the AI sat to similarly beat my shit in, before I finally got the AI on my side and only then could I begin to turn the tide back against the revolution to eventually come out on top and win. It was the most fun I've ever had on SS13.

As long as it isn't a case of "go hunt down the last remaining head that is embedded in a wall because noadmins" or something, rev can be fun.


However, I can't say the same about either cult mode. In its essence, cults are just revs but they get free gimmick shit to make it easier for them. Fighting clock cult especially is unfun because of their ability to teleport nearly anywhere and cause sabotage more or less undetected and it can make the station a fucking hellhole very quickly, with an un-callable shuttle and a 50 minute timer for the fucking round to end, and it's almost always one-sided as an ending because either the first four cultists were immediately caught or the entire station is cult and the station is blown up, filled with plasma, and depowered, and you have no chance to win.

Blood Cult is bad right now because it's simply hilariously overpowered in its current state and it's baby piss easy mode for bloodies to win unless you code red the shuttle exactly 20 minutes in and pray.
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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby WarbossLincoln » Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:42 pm #394352

Yakumo_Chen wrote: the station is blown up, filled with plasma, and depowered, and you have no chance to win.



So a regular traitor round, or extended. Though I agree that Revs are fun but both cults can be pretty lame. Mostly cause I don't want to learn how either cult works, so if I get converted I'm basically just a rev who hangs around and attacks people who fight fellow culties.
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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:55 pm #394449

Traitor doesn't force you to twiddle your thumbs on the station for 50 minutes to delay the inevitable. At least on traitor it's one dude who probably can't teleport all over the station constantly.
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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby oranges » Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:24 pm #394453

Revolution is basically conversion modes stripped down to the purest elements, which is why it's so easy to pick up, no gimmicks, no powerplay but items available on the station, a simple race against time to cut the rev off before it grows too large to contain.

Cult and Clockcult are overly complex, fiddly and have all these techniques and methods you need to use to win.

They're just worse copies of rev IMO.
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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby darkpaladin109 » Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:37 pm #394456

Conversion modes are a necesarry evil, they balance out game-modes like wizard and nuke ops where the average crewmember serves as little more than cannon fodder against the antags. Of course, having them too often can be a problem, and weightings should be rebalanced if that is the case.

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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby onleavedontatme » Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:23 pm #394539

oranges wrote:Revolution is basically conversion modes stripped down to the purest elements, which is why it's so easy to pick up, no gimmicks, no powerplay but items available on the station, a simple race against time to cut the rev off before it grows too large to contain.

Cult and Clockcult are overly complex, fiddly and have all these techniques and methods you need to use to win.

They're just worse copies of rev IMO.


I agree. Rev builds on SS13 to let players use all the various systems in the game to try and one up each other, clock cult and cult instead try to make another game within SS13, and have to cancel a bunch of SS13 systems out with various immunities to stop them falling apart.

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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby DemonFiren » Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:24 pm #394541

that is an extremely insightful citruspost
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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby Dr_bee » Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:57 am #394555

I would kill for a hard-mode traitor round type being in rotation but that is kind of beyond the scope of the thread.

Clock cult can most likely work without conversion with some careful balancing, more of a focus on using static defenses and sabotage and less on mass conversion and murder.

I cant see blood cult working without conversion. There is no reason to fight the cult, at all. Calling the shuttle and hoping for a better round type is pretty much the only response the crew had even before Robustin's buffs to cultists.

I can see the argument for keeping Rev now, I concede that it should probably stay.But the round's balance assumes a full security force which is becoming rarer and rarer. But that isn't a problem with the mode itself and can be solved via other means. Doing something to make security more attractive to play might be something worth brainstorming but that can be its own thread on the ideas forum.

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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby oranges » Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:31 pm #394759

Kor wrote:
oranges wrote:Revolution is basically conversion modes stripped down to the purest elements, which is why it's so easy to pick up, no gimmicks, no powerplay but items available on the station, a simple race against time to cut the rev off before it grows too large to contain.

Cult and Clockcult are overly complex, fiddly and have all these techniques and methods you need to use to win.

They're just worse copies of rev IMO.


I agree. Rev builds on SS13 to let players use all the various systems in the game to try and one up each other, clock cult and cult instead try to make another game within SS13, and have to cancel a bunch of SS13 systems out with various immunities to stop them falling apart.

This is such an excellent post, you're right, the very heart of the problem is the other modes try to modify ss13 to fit the mode, whereas rev just works within the bounds of the game.

I was trying to state this but you've done it much more clearly.
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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby BeeSting12 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:15 pm #394963

oranges and kor just summed up my thoughts on it. i understood blood cult when i first started but im about tired of keeping up with all the changes to it. i used to like blood cult but now i wouldnt be sad to see it go. i havent even bothered understanding clock cult. used to get it but too many changes to it and the moment i get something it gets changed anyway so whats the point
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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby Rustledjimm » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:45 pm #394974

I like rev.
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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby CPTANT » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:56 pm #394978

Rev is a lot better than cult/clock because rev actually has a goal for the loyalists to work to.

You can't feasibly destroy a blood/clock cult because there is nothing to indicate that the cult is really gone. With blood cult the only way to actually win is to call the shuttle and with clock you are just waiting for the Ark.

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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby cedarbridge » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:44 pm #395015

BeeSting12 wrote:oranges and kor just summed up my thoughts on it. i understood blood cult when i first started but im about tired of keeping up with all the changes to it. i used to like blood cult but now i wouldnt be sad to see it go. i havent even bothered understanding clock cult. used to get it but too many changes to it and the moment i get something it gets changed anyway so whats the point

This isn't helped by the fact that a small group of coders can't keep their hands off the mode for more than 3 minutes in the interest of "balancing" the win-loss ratio of a game mode in a role-playing game.

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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby Rustledjimm » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:05 pm #395193

There is currently a poll going up regarding game modes. Please do answer it.
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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby PKPenguin321 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:14 pm #395202

Yakumo_Chen wrote:Pure and simple Team Deathmatch. I'm not going to mince words here. It's Team Deathmatch.

this is incredibly pedantic but team deathmatch is where you win if your team gets the most kills on the other team but you get absolutely nothing as a rev for killing random non-rev people so no, it's not team deathmatch, but i get what you mean
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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby CitrusGender » Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:40 pm #395418

I watched a round of clockcult the other day and I just want to say that I'm really not pleased with the current state of clockcult.

Perhaps it is the fact that I have been out of the loop for awhile, but I don't think a game mode that ends up with 10-20 antags within the first 10 minutes and the ability to become an A.I. that can then teleport down in seconds is good game mechanics. It was alright when it first game out, but the game has a 65% win rate as of now and the fact that the crew either curb stomps the clock cult or the clockies win by having literally half the station as their converts. I see no reason to keep clockcult on the list.

The meta has been solidified and it is near unbreakable at the moment. I do not find a game that literally changes the entire dynamic of the game and forces the round to continue to a certain time to be something the game currently needs right now. Really, the question has become whether or not we should remove it outright or change the percentage down to extremely low.
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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby D&B » Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:14 pm #395427

D&B wrote:The mode isn't even going to be polished anymore by the coder that revived it, why even keep it around when half the player base (and some change) don't enjoy it?
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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby captain sawrge » Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:18 pm #395429

Blood cult isn't quite as egregious as CC but it falls into the same trap of smaller game in ss13 rather than ss13 gamemode and is generally just revs but miserable to play against

Would be cool if like 80% of the mode was gutted and it ended up as themed revs I guess
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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby pubby » Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:22 pm #395432

or change the percentage down to extremely low.


"here's a complicated, nuanced gamemode that takes dozens of rounds to learn... oh yeah, and it only shows up once every 100 games"

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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby SpaceInaba » Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:37 pm #395436

just remove both cults :)
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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby CitrusGender » Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:40 pm #395437

Bloodcult is going to remain to see if Robustin can make it any better.

CC is on the chopping block as of now.
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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby SpaceInaba » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:14 pm #395442

at least fake brass is a thing now so I can still rock the CC aesthetic
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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby oranges » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:11 pm #395577

[12:03] oranges: I'm saying I don't think it's possible to make a conversion gamemode that is more likeable than rev,

Rev is easy to pick up, ends relatively quickly and fits with the rest of the game by not using special mechanics for attack/defense


[12:04] oranges: and remember
[12:04] oranges: we've seen this shit play out twice


[12:04] oranges: with cult
[12:04] oranges: and clockcult


Not to say rev is a good game mode, but there's no need to have both it and two shitty clones of it that don't work

prove me wrong.
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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby Bombadil » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:19 pm #395579

Bloodcult is the far better conversion mode. It can end relatively quick in some cases and everyone gets to get in on the action. Blood cultists actually have to hunt down targets and try to stay low because if they get caught station wide manhunts will happen. I'm not sure why people are saying blood cult is as bad as clock cult.


Clock cult is teleport in grab a person with little resistance and teleport out and get easy converts or just sacrifice security. Then you have to go through a MEGAFORTIFIED space that the cuck cultists have had an hour to build up. You can do literally nothing to fight them until the portals open up (30 or 40?) minutes in. Fuck that game mode. Clock cultists don't need to worry about getting caught after all the station can't harm their base in any way. Clock cultists are 100% immune to bombs, and atmospheric damage such as fire while blood cultists are EXTREMELY vulnerable to such attacks. Not to mention clock cult prevents calling the shuttle whatsoever.
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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby oranges » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:28 pm #395583

bloodcult is rev but with over complicated mechanics that make it hard to pick up, which is why rev is superior.
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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby Nilons » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:37 pm #395585

I liked blood cult more before robustin started fucking with it
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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby Dr_bee » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:50 pm #395586

Bloodcult is shitty to fight against even before Robustin started making it even more pooly balanced simply because trying to convert people with mindshield implants just means they get a simplemob instead of a deconvertable cultist for free, effectively making implants have no point, as they arent even a good measure of loyalty as they dont even deconvert.

When it comes to clock cult and blood cult, the aesthetic and lore of both cult modes is interesting. If they can be repurposed into non-conversion versions of the modes they really should be. Conversion is too powerful of a game mechanic to give to any antag where it isnt the only tool they have.

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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby Bombadil » Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:00 am #395587

I think Blood Cult could definitely work out as a team antag who have to sacrifice multiple high priority targets in order to summon nar'sie. Then it's just a defense of the summoning point and instead of having a rune you need 9 people on it's just the guy doing the ritual explodes into nar'sie as the rest of the cultists defend against people fuckign the ritual. Maybe high priority targets get converted into soulstones as a reward?


Kind of like stealth ops in a way? Because if they get caught they are turbofucked now that they don't have conversion
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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby Nilons » Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:11 am #395588

If blood cultists were treated more like a group of stealthy wizard apprentices instead of a conversion group that is armed to the teeth with op shit it would be interesting
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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby PKPenguin321 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:55 am #395607

remind me why we changed old bloodcult where you had a tome and word researching and make a little base in maint and have 3 people to convert and only one reliable stun paper
i feel like it worked pretty well, then it got complicated and made into a big mess that we have now
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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby EagleWiz » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:36 am #395615

PKPenguin321 wrote:remind me why we changed old bloodcult where you had a tome and word researching and make a little base in maint and have 3 people to convert and only one reliable stun paper
i feel like it worked pretty well, then it got complicated and made into a big mess that we have now


I think its because people were bad at it? That and the summoning time was really low, so once you got 9 cultists it was pretty much over

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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby ShadowDimentio » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:08 am #395629

PKPenguin321 wrote:remind me why we changed old bloodcult where you had a tome and word researching and make a little base in maint and have 3 people to convert and only one reliable stun paper
i feel like it worked pretty well, then it got complicated and made into a big mess that we have now


I fucking hated that system, I had no idea how it worked and "researching" was just trying random word combinations until you got a static rune color. It wasn't fun.

Modern cult has a bit much excess baggage in the tools available to the cult, but it's still very functional and fun.
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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby Rustledjimm » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:59 pm #395710

Rev is the only good one to be honest.
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Re: Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Postby Bombadil » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:15 pm #395714

PKPenguin321 wrote:remind me why we changed old bloodcult where you had a tome and word researching and make a little base in maint and have 3 people to convert and only one reliable stun paper
i feel like it worked pretty well, then it got complicated and made into a big mess that we have now


Because unless you actually knew how to research it took cults half an hour or more to do anything. Most of the time they'd fuck off and make spacebases to do the research so they wouldn't get caught. You would have to combien the words together into strings of 3? To make the rune you wanted


But TBH I just prefer when tomes gave all the runes instead of these stupid daggers the tomes are iconic
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