Remove Conversion Modes From Rotation

Dr_bee · Post by **Dr_bee** » Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:35 pm #393693

Bottom post of the previous page:

Revs, Clock Cult, and Blood Cult are some of the most despised round types. They dont really have a place on the server with how rarely security is staffed anymore.

Lack of security is only one problem, each mode has its own problems besides the fact that conversion as an ability is too powerful. mass conversion is basically the be all end all strategy.

Clock Cult is basically mass conversion with a free unassailable space base right now, and the coder in charge of the mode has mentioned being burned out working on it. With the glaring problem of mass conversion leading to 10 minutes of just waiting for the damn round to end.

Blood Cult has been foolishly buffed by giving the cultists full blown wizard spells as well as taser reflection shields that you can throw to AOE stun people as well as traitor bolas that cant be used by non-cultists. This basically has made the problem of calling the shuttle the moment that blood cult is called even worse, as with the current culture of no security as well as poorly thought out changes makes fighting the cult a fools errand.

Rev rounds have always been administrative nightmares as half the time non-revs murder each other out of pure paranoia and if the rev round does go normally the round is over in 15-20 minutes, making many of the jobs on the station pointless to do. If Rev rounds go poorly they can be hour long boring slogs of people whining in dead-chat while the last rev head or head of staff hides behind a hidden wall. The argument to keep revs as being a way for the server to "Blow off steam" is a poor one, as the server has been trying to move away from low RP team deathmatch bullshit for awhile.

Conversion modes arent really the direction the server needs to be going in anymore if balanced, fun, medium RP is what is desired. Removing them from rotation and making them admin only rounds until they can be changed to actually be fun and balanced, or the problem of people not playing sec is solved, would honestly be an improvement.

Lazengann · Post by **Lazengann** » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:39 pm #395718

I loved old cult, there was nothing quite like being the last living cultie and fucking off to the Derelict chapel to research and summon ghosts to assault the station.

Lazengann · Post by **Lazengann** » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:41 pm #395719

Then again space travel isn't static any more which is GAY

Aloraydrel · Post by **Aloraydrel** » Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:36 pm #395736

*sits in the corner of the zlevel putting in random words into the tome with a medibot on my tile*

Dr_bee · Post by **Dr_bee** » Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:42 pm #395739

Aloraydrel wrote:*sits in the corner of the zlevel putting in random words into the tome with a medibot on my tile*

Say what you will it at least provided a time buffer to prevent the cult from steamrolling the station in under 20 minutes like it can do now.

ShadowDimentio · Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:38 pm

Dr_bee wrote:
Aloraydrel wrote:*sits in the corner of the zlevel putting in random words into the tome with a medibot on my tile*
Say what you will it at least provided a time buffer to prevent the cult from steamrolling the station in under 20 minutes like it can do now.

There's nothing stopping one clown with a banana and an extinguisher from steamrolling the station, sealing the clown's banana behind 20 minutes of random password guesses to open the box it's in isn't fun for anyone.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:55 pm #395826

you can't genuinely believe the shit you're typing here, shadowmemes

Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:01 am

ShadowDimentio wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:
Aloraydrel wrote:*sits in the corner of the zlevel putting in random words into the tome with a medibot on my tile*
Say what you will it at least provided a time buffer to prevent the cult from steamrolling the station in under 20 minutes like it can do now.
There's nothing stopping one clown with a banana and an extinguisher from steamrolling the station, sealing the clown's banana behind 20 minutes of random password guesses to open the box it's in isn't fun for anyone.

not only was it not totally random (it was more deduction) but you could also get words by just sacrificing people

Shadowflame909 · Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:32 am

Traitor Lings is just as hated as clock cult, and revs. More so than the last one for me. Secondly, It isn't good to make generalizations like this. No one wants to experience the same type of round. Or people will get burned out!

EagleWiz · Post by **EagleWiz** » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:51 am #395867

Yeah, but ling has undergone far less changes then clock or blood cult, and it could be fun if it was a sneaky identity changing antag with powers to make it slippery, as opposed to an immortal teamworking antag with powers to make it a murder machine

RandomMarine · Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:35 am

EagleWiz wrote:Yeah, but ling has undergone far less changes then clock or blood cult, and it could be fun if it was a sneaky identity changing antag with powers to make it slippery, as opposed to an immortal teamworking antag with powers to make it a murder machine

That's what they were between the great parasting removal and when the armblade was added. They weren't fun.

Swagbringer · Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:36 am

What if Bloodcult was balanced around instant shuttle calls?

Putting a 30 minute max on it would ensure cultists play aggressively, which is how they are designed anyway, while not infuriating regular crew when a head is a cultist and continuously recalls.

Post by **Cobby** » Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:11 pm #395993

We already have non-immersion breaking ways of handling that (it gives you the location of the console) but ofc cult needs a way to do this without having to convert a priority target so we gave them a "use this anywhere to delay the shuttle haha!" item.

Dr_bee · Post by **Dr_bee** » Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:37 pm #396060

Cobby wrote:We already have non-immersion breaking ways of handling that (it gives you the location of the console) but ofc cult needs a way to do this without having to convert a priority target so we gave them a "use this anywhere to delay the shuttle haha!" item.

Bloodcult is living proof of the disadvantages of an open source codebase with little overall design direction.

All these tiny little changes to solve problems a single coder perceives add up to the overpowered monstrosity we have today.

Bloodcult needs a freaking design document and overall design goal. What are the win conditions to each faction? what avenues of attack does each faction have? what are each factions weaknesses and strengths?

Asymmetric game balance is hard enough WITH coherent design. Without any overall direction to the game mode you end up with the power creep city we have today.

somerandomguy · Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:16 pm

Cobby wrote:We already have non-immersion breaking ways of handling that (it gives you the location of the console) but ofc cult needs a way to do this without having to convert a priority target so we gave them a "use this anywhere to delay the shuttle haha!" item.

And of course they just use the delay item to recall even when the shuttle's practically there

Rustledjimm · Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:30 pm

clock cult has had it's chance set to 0.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:49 pm #396704

Rustledjimm wrote:clock cult has had it's chance set to 0.

by request!

Dr_bee · Post by **Dr_bee** » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:38 am #396709

Xhuis wrote:
Rustledjimm wrote:clock cult has had it's chance set to 0.
by request!

Despite being the one who made this thread, I do hope that Clock Cult can still be salvaged in the future.

Dr_bee · Post by **Dr_bee** » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:16 am #396732

To futher prove just how fucking broken Blood cult is currently, a cult base was raided by sec only for every officer who was in the raid to be instantly gibbed by cultists.

Seriously, who the fuck thought runes that gib people with implants that have no delay to use and can be used by 1 mobile cultist and 2 stunned and cuffed cultists was a good idea.

No fucking delay insta-death with no chance of cloning! PERFECT IDEA

If blood cult has any hope of being even marginally fun, the fucking conversion rune needs to not do shit to people with implants or the dead.

You used to have to capture people ALIVE as a cult to get converts. Now you can just murder them and get a free fucking construct out of it.

GOD DAMN is it unbalanced right now.

Fix it or remove it from rotation.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:48 pm #396895

Dr_bee wrote:To futher prove just how fucking broken Blood cult is currently, a cult base was raided by sec only for every officer who was in the raid to be instantly gibbed by cultists.

Seriously, who the fuck thought runes that gib people with implants that have no delay to use and can be used by 1 mobile cultist and 2 stunned and cuffed cultists was a good idea.

No fucking delay insta-death with no chance of cloning! PERFECT IDEA

If blood cult has any hope of being even marginally fun, the fucking conversion rune needs to not do shit to people with implants or the dead.

You used to have to capture people ALIVE as a cult to get converts. Now you can just murder them and get a free fucking construct out of it.

GOD DAMN is it unbalanced right now.

Fix it or remove it from rotation.

That's the blood boil rune the hardly used but most op rune in the game. It's been the most powerful rune since it was introduced years ago

SpaceInaba · Post by **SpaceInaba** » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:14 pm #396901

i like them being able to emp the entire station for free

Dr_bee · Post by **Dr_bee** » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:55 pm #396952

Bombadil wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:To futher prove just how fucking broken Blood cult is currently, a cult base was raided by sec only for every officer who was in the raid to be instantly gibbed by cultists.

Seriously, who the fuck thought runes that gib people with implants that have no delay to use and can be used by 1 mobile cultist and 2 stunned and cuffed cultists was a good idea.

No fucking delay insta-death with no chance of cloning! PERFECT IDEA

If blood cult has any hope of being even marginally fun, the fucking conversion rune needs to not do shit to people with implants or the dead.

You used to have to capture people ALIVE as a cult to get converts. Now you can just murder them and get a free fucking construct out of it.

GOD DAMN is it unbalanced right now.

Fix it or remove it from rotation.

That's the blood boil rune the hardly used but most op rune in the game. It's been the most powerful rune since it was introduced years ago

Sadly it wasnt, it was the white rune, blood boil just crits people.

The fact that you can instantly gib people with the fucking basic rune is stupid.

Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:43 pm

This is not the blood cult feedback thread

onleavedontatme · Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:47 pm

PKPenguin321 wrote:This is not the blood cult feedback thread

Blood cult is now one of two conversion modes, so it more or less is.

Rustledjimm · Post by **Rustledjimm** » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:27 pm #397032

Blood Cults situation is different form Clock Cult. There is someone actively working on it and willing to try and make it better. I suggest if you have severe issues with it you post on the coding feedback thread for blood cult so we can at least work towards making it a better mode. You can still talk about it here but specific issues are best posted in coding feedback.

Post by **oranges** » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:18 am #397098

if by better you mean actively making it worse then yes

Nilons · Post by **Nilons** » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:40 am #397102

oranges wrote:if by better you mean actively making it worse then yes

this

it was better before robustin turned it into deathmatch

Karp · Post by **Karp** » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:50 am #397124

the two above me but unironically

Xeroxemnas · Post by **Xeroxemnas** » Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:01 am #397126

Why not take Blood Cult out of rotation (temporarily) then? Everyone clearly sees it as broken as fuck and in its current state isn't really fun for anyone.

Nilons · Post by **Nilons** » Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:22 am #397132

Karp wrote:the two above me but unironically

this but post-ironically

Dr_bee · Post by **Dr_bee** » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:25 am #397161

Xeroxemnas wrote:Why not take Blood Cult out of rotation (temporarily) then? Everyone clearly sees it as broken as fuck and in its current state isn't really fun for anyone.

This is exactly why I made the thread. Take it out of rotation, Let robustin make changes and test them in rounds that are manually set for the mode. Right now blood cult balance is so lopsided as to be unfun to fight.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:02 am #397169

Dr_bee wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:To futher prove just how fucking broken Blood cult is currently, a cult base was raided by sec only for every officer who was in the raid to be instantly gibbed by cultists.

Seriously, who the fuck thought runes that gib people with implants that have no delay to use and can be used by 1 mobile cultist and 2 stunned and cuffed cultists was a good idea.

No fucking delay insta-death with no chance of cloning! PERFECT IDEA

If blood cult has any hope of being even marginally fun, the fucking conversion rune needs to not do shit to people with implants or the dead.

You used to have to capture people ALIVE as a cult to get converts. Now you can just murder them and get a free fucking construct out of it.

GOD DAMN is it unbalanced right now.

Fix it or remove it from rotation.

That's the blood boil rune the hardly used but most op rune in the game. It's been the most powerful rune since it was introduced years ago
Sadly it wasnt, it was the white rune, blood boil just crits people.

The fact that you can instantly gib people with the fucking basic rune is stupid.

You dipshits ran over sacrifice runes? You deserve it. Should of thrown a cleaner grenade

Blood boil used to gib people.

Dr_bee · Post by **Dr_bee** » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:49 am #397177

Bombadil wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:To futher prove just how fucking broken Blood cult is currently, a cult base was raided by sec only for every officer who was in the raid to be instantly gibbed by cultists.

Seriously, who the fuck thought runes that gib people with implants that have no delay to use and can be used by 1 mobile cultist and 2 stunned and cuffed cultists was a good idea.

No fucking delay insta-death with no chance of cloning! PERFECT IDEA

If blood cult has any hope of being even marginally fun, the fucking conversion rune needs to not do shit to people with implants or the dead.

You used to have to capture people ALIVE as a cult to get converts. Now you can just murder them and get a free fucking construct out of it.

GOD DAMN is it unbalanced right now.

Fix it or remove it from rotation.

That's the blood boil rune the hardly used but most op rune in the game. It's been the most powerful rune since it was introduced years ago
Sadly it wasnt, it was the white rune, blood boil just crits people.

The fact that you can instantly gib people with the fucking basic rune is stupid.

You dipshits ran over sacrifice runes? You deserve it. Should of thrown a cleaner grenade

Blood boil used to gib people.

GG no RE gibbing with no ability to clone plus the cult getting a free simplemob is bad game design, it doesnt matter if the officers made a mistake. The officers didnt walk over the rune, they were just near it because they had to be because they were ASSAULTING THE FUCKING CULT BASE.

More often than not sec raids on cult componds end up just giving the cult constructs because of how those damn runes work.

Gigapuddi420 · Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:57 am

Nilons wrote:it was better before robustin turned it into deathmatch

It was always a death match, they just get more tools for it now. Every conversion mode is about reaching that critical mass where you can go loud and destroy security. Stealth is just the prep for that.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:18 pm #397219

Dr_bee wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:To futher prove just how fucking broken Blood cult is currently, a cult base was raided by sec only for every officer who was in the raid to be instantly gibbed by cultists.

Seriously, who the fuck thought runes that gib people with implants that have no delay to use and can be used by 1 mobile cultist and 2 stunned and cuffed cultists was a good idea.

No fucking delay insta-death with no chance of cloning! PERFECT IDEA

If blood cult has any hope of being even marginally fun, the fucking conversion rune needs to not do shit to people with implants or the dead.

You used to have to capture people ALIVE as a cult to get converts. Now you can just murder them and get a free fucking construct out of it.

GOD DAMN is it unbalanced right now.

Fix it or remove it from rotation.

That's the blood boil rune the hardly used but most op rune in the game. It's been the most powerful rune since it was introduced years ago
Sadly it wasnt, it was the white rune, blood boil just crits people.

The fact that you can instantly gib people with the fucking basic rune is stupid.

You dipshits ran over sacrifice runes? You deserve it. Should of thrown a cleaner grenade

Blood boil used to gib people.
GG no RE gibbing with no ability to clone plus the cult getting a free simplemob is bad game design, it doesnt matter if the officers made a mistake. The officers didnt walk over the rune, they were just near it because they had to be because they were ASSAULTING THE FUCKING CULT BASE.

More often than not sec raids on cult componds end up just giving the cult constructs because of how those damn runes work.

Im pretty sure you are talking about the blood boil rune im 100% sure its the only rune that can aoe gib. Sacrifice rune requires you stand on it. Blood Boil gets more powerful the more cultists there are and if you do enough damage instagibbed im 100% sure of this

Rustledjimm · Post by **Rustledjimm** » Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:03 pm #397240

>pop into local policy thread about conversion modes
>Oh hey, they've talked loads more about blood cult
>Let me go check that feedback thread I told them to post their feedback in
>Last post: March 17th

Fuck sake guys do I need to put you all on post approval here to force you to post feedback in the FEEDBACK FORUM.

Since some of you are incapable of finding the correct thread despite me telling you to post there here is a direct link for you all: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 10&t=15285

WarbossLincoln · Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:02 pm

Dr_bee wrote:
Bloodcult is living proof of the disadvantages of an open source codebase with little overall design direction.

All these tiny little changes to solve problems a single coder perceives add up to the overpowered monstrosity we have today.

Bloodcult needs a freaking design document and overall design goal. What are the win conditions to each faction? what avenues of attack does each faction have? what are each factions weaknesses and strengths?

Asymmetric game balance is hard enough WITH coherent design. Without any overall direction to the game mode you end up with the power creep city we have today.

This. Cult is too complicated to have no direction and un solicited adjustments. We need a basic design for a bare bones cult, a minimum viable product(round). That could be coded up and demoed for a day or two and take in some feedback. Then make incremental deliveries of new features, fixes, and adjustments. Each one would have have admins run the cult round more frequently for a day or two to let the players demo it. Repeat until cult is stable. Then do a similar process any time any new features are added. Don't make sweeping changes to how cult works. Instead code up changes with the intent that they are 'possible' and then let them be demoed on the server to see if people hate them. Game modes should get frequent test merges.

It's a harder process for something like SS13 where there's no product owner to actually ok something like a game mode though.

Xeroxemnas · Post by **Xeroxemnas** » Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:43 pm #397696

The power creep on blood cult is fucking unreal. Please remove it for now until it gets fixed.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:06 am #397708

No silly clockcult were the ones who used power for their spells bloodcult uses blood magic

Rustledjimm · Post by **Rustledjimm** » Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:26 am #398065

The poll results came in.

Spoiler:

EDIT: NOTE LINEAR SORTED RESULTS BELOW

Rustledjimm · Post by **Rustledjimm** » Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:28 am #398067

Also let's remove lings.

Oldman Robustin · Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:59 am

STOP USING EXPONENTIALLY WEIGHTED VOTING TALLIES THIS ISNT A HEADMIN ELECTION.

Please ask MSO to post the linear-weighted results like he did with the preliminary results a week ago. Nothing aggravates me like the fact we only get player feedback once a year on this shit and when we do we save the data in the least coherent format possible. Ideally we'd actually have a better poll format but until then at least the linear-weighted data lets us figure out what the "average rank" for each mode is.

Rustledjimm · Post by **Rustledjimm** » Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:53 pm #398248

I'll get updated linear results for you Oldman.

Oldman Robustin · Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:02 pm

Rustledjimm wrote:I'll get updated linear results for you Oldman.

Thank you.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:53 pm #398269

>Remove half of the antags

lol ok

Rustledjimm · Post by **Rustledjimm** » Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:35 pm #398283

Spoiler:

updated results with linear weighting, thank you MSO for doing this.

muh extended ;_;

D&B · Post by **D&B** » Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:37 pm #398285

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:37 pm #398292

Could someone explain something to me? Why is it that people prefer playing modes where getting defeated by the antags means you're out of the round permanently rather than a mode where you get to keep playing with free valids?

Dr_bee · Post by **Dr_bee** » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:52 am #398393

Luke Cox wrote:Could someone explain something to me? Why is it that people prefer playing modes where getting defeated by the antags means you're out of the round permanently rather than a mode where you get to keep playing with free valids?

Because one you can fight against and actually feel like you are winning vs the others which are chaotic shitshows where it is hard to tell if anything you are doing is actually helping or not.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:11 am #398413

I'll grant you that they can be a bit of a clusterfuck. Rev is fine because once someone is implanted, that's it. Blood cult had problems, but coderbus is actively working to alleviate it. Cluck cult I dunno.

Post by **Togopal** » Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:36 am #398416

Dr_bee wrote:
Luke Cox wrote:Could someone explain something to me? Why is it that people prefer playing modes where getting defeated by the antags means you're out of the round permanently rather than a mode where you get to keep playing with free valids?
Because one you can fight against and actually feel like you are winning vs the others which are chaotic shitshows where it is hard to tell if anything you are doing is actually helping or not.

Adding on to this, notice how traitorchan got out pretty fast too, a gamemode where you have no idea who the antagonists are until they kill you with their concealed nodrop esword or get caught running around the hallways stinging everyone with one of their annoying abilities, which happened pretty often. Alternatively they can sit in a private room and spam spiders all round with no consequences or fear of getting caught as long as there was a vent

somerandomguy · Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:26 pm

With the cults it's also a pain if you're not a cultist and get arrested; I don't think there's an easy way to tell that the holy water's been in your system long enough.