AI and allowing access to upload.

[Lumbermancer]

So my actions were challenged by an admin, so lets talk about it here. I'm gonna lay down my procedure.

Silicon policy is pretty clear here:

Silicon Protections.
Any silicon under Asimov can deny orders to allow access to the upload at any time under Law 1 given probable cause (..) Probable cause includes (..) the person not having upload access for their job.

It clearly specifies Asimov. Asimov does not care about rank authority, Asimov doesn't care about Chain of Command. Asimov cares about humans and non-humans, and silicon policy. That means only Captain and RD are allowed into upload. They can allow other people into upload.

So in our scenario we have HoP, and no Captain. HoP secures the spare and all that jazz, he is the acting captain, through chain of command. Head of Personnel goes into upload to change my laws. I reenable turrets and keep him stunned. The usual cry "rogue ai" happens. Their only defense is that they're acing captain.

Fact 1: They were Head of Personnel on the manifest, therefore their access to the upload was denied. Acting Captain rank means nothing to me.
Fact 2: If they changed their job to Captain, I would allow them into upload without any problems.

That is how I always played AI, and I play AI a lot. There was never OOC complaints about it. But now, Admin is breathing down my neck telling me I'm wrong, and if I disagree I should make a policy discussion thread about it.

So here it is.

[Lumbermancer]

I knew nothing and nothing has happened really. I saw a motion alert in upload, I saw a HoP fiddling with boards, I turned tasers on. Then I proceeded to explain to HoP he has no authority to access upload, and asked him to leave, many many times. Security came, I opened door for security. Unfortunately some tide forced themselves in. I powered down APC, and open bolted doors, asking everyone to leave, many many times. Cameras were cut, and meme laws were uploaded. One of them being "YOU WILL FOLLOW YOUR LAWS", which was of zero consequence of course. HoP got arrested and brought to brig. Then nuclear operatives came and killed themselves and other people.

Honestly, if HoP simply asked to access upload, I'd probably consider his acting captainship and let him in.

[Dr_bee]

I knew nothing and nothing has happened really. I saw a motion alert in upload, I saw a HoP fiddling with boards, I turned tasers on. Then I proceeded to explain to HoP he has no authority to access upload, and asked him to leave, many many times. Security came, I opened door for security. Unfortunately some tide forced themselves in. I powered down APC, and open bolted doors, asking everyone to leave, many many times. Cameras were cut, and meme laws were uploaded. One of them being "YOU WILL FOLLOW YOUR LAWS", which was of zero consequence of course. HoP got arrested and brought to brig. Then nuclear operatives came and killed themselves and other people.

Honestly, if HoP simply asked to access upload, I'd probably consider his acting captainship and let him in.

Whats worse is the damn idiot didnt consider bringing the RD or just asking the RD to vouch for him.

[Dax Dupont]

I knew nothing and nothing has happened really. I saw a motion alert in upload, I saw a HoP fiddling with boards, I turned tasers on. Then I proceeded to explain to HoP he has no authority to access upload, and asked him to leave, many many times. Security came, I opened door for security. Unfortunately some tide forced themselves in. I powered down APC, and open bolted doors, asking everyone to leave, many many times. Cameras were cut, and meme laws were uploaded. One of them being "YOU WILL FOLLOW YOUR LAWS", which was of zero consequence of course. HoP got arrested and brought to brig. Then nuclear operatives came and killed themselves and other people.

Honestly, if HoP simply asked to access upload, I'd probably consider his acting captainship and let him in.

Whats worse is the damn idiot didnt consider bringing the RD or just asking the RD to vouch for him.

There was no RD iirc. there was checked the logs.

As per the chain of command, the HoP becomes the captain more or less automatically is how I viewed the situation.
This was before it was known there was a nuclear threat, and the law they uploaded was Catpeople are also human.

The AI had no reason to really think this person was gonna be harmful, and the hop was more than peaceful towards people. Not only that this was quite a few minutes in the round and the AI should know there's no captain since he did check the manifest.

We generally take the chain of command into account with other things RE: security and what not.

I'd love a headmin ruling because this seems like one of those grey areas that seem to be in line with the spirit of the rules, but not specified specifically in the rules.

[Lumbermancer]

As per the chain of command, the HoP becomes the captain more or less automatically is how I viewed the situation.

He does, for the crew members.

The AI had no reason to really think this person was gonna be harmful

I didn't. He was denied access because HoP has no access to upload, so per silicon policy.

We generally take the chain of command into account with other things RE: security and what not.

Yes, crew members do. I will, when I'm security, even though I will often remind HoP he is merely acting captain if he oversteps his bounds.

Asimov AI doesn't. The rank only comes into play in Silicon Policy, like accessing upload or other high security areas i.e. armory. Basically the core 3 Asimov laws were not in play here, at all, only the policy.

[Stickymayhem]

Yeah I'm gonna have to agree with lumber on this one. I think requiring a technical change that's entirely possible isn't a particularly disruptive form of AI roleplay.

That allows a lot more room for an AI to actually be playing a robot instead of just an antaghunting camera. The AI should act as a third faction and this situation is in line with that role.

We specifically don't want to go down this road because it begins to encourage the Antaghunt AI we all despise. You have to jump through hoops for the AI to work for you, but when it does it's extremely useful.

Logic/fluff-wise, the Head of Personnel is neither implanted, nor expected to be experienced in fiddling with AI laws. It's entirely reasonable that keeping unimplanted morons out of the upload prevents harm. Frankly I can only see powergamers getting annoyed by this situation and refusing to cave to an AI's requirements.

[Dax Dupont]

Logic/fluff-wise, the Head of Personnel is neither implanted, nor expected to be experienced in fiddling with AI laws. It's entirely reasonable that keeping unimplanted morons out of the upload prevents harm. Frankly I can only see powergamers getting annoyed by this situation and refusing to cave to an AI's requirements.

Though he stated that setting the HoPs id to captain would've worked too in the ahelps if I am not misremembering.

Which kinda makes it weird because then an assistant with an renamed ID would be the captain.

It was a bit vague for me and I interpreted silicon policy in a certain way and he in another way, this is also why I asked him to make this thread because silicon policy is a beast and I'd like some clarification what we/I as admin should probably do in this situation as this will deffo happen more.

Mostly what I'd like to hear is, do only crew manifest captains and crew manifest RD count for this policy or do we allow people who get promoted too?

[Lumbermancer]

Mostly what I'd like to hear is, do only crew manifest captains and crew manifest RD count for this policy

IC I have no other way to tell who is Captain or RD but using the manifest.

[Stickymayhem]

Logic/fluff-wise, the Head of Personnel is neither implanted, nor expected to be experienced in fiddling with AI laws. It's entirely reasonable that keeping unimplanted morons out of the upload prevents harm. Frankly I can only see powergamers getting annoyed by this situation and refusing to cave to an AI's requirements.

Which kinda makes it weird because then an assistant with an renamed ID would be the captain.

This is also fine. OR not.

There is no set policy on this, nor should there be. Either avenue is perfectly acceptable and is what gives you any variation in playing AI at all. If we wanted AI's to all follow an exact script they wouldn't be playable.

The point is that they didn't need to be told not to do it.

[Dax Dupont]

Well that's true. IC I have no ability to discern who is the Captain but using the manifest.

Yeah which can deffo put you in the right, but at the same time you say if they changed their job to captain on their ID, which makes it kinda inconsistent on the interpretation since it won't change on the manifest.

It's just kinda confusing for players and admins because it just mentions roles/jobs specifically in the silicon policy rules but there's no real definition of when they become these jobs or roles legitimately in the eyes, maybe the best approach would be to like say crew manifest ones always are. Otherwise it depends on the AI's interpretation of the rules so as long it's consistent. All these silicon policy exceptions seem less loose than the rest of the things which aren't defined.

That is how I always played AI, and I play AI a lot. There was never OOC complaints about it. But now, Admin is breathing down my neck telling me I'm wrong, and if I disagree I should make a policy discussion thread about it.

So here it is.

Also I'd like to mention it's less breathing down your neck and more like "I don't think this is what the rules mean in this regard", and I did state for you to make a policy thread about this because I could definitely be in the wrong with my interpretation of the rules. I was gonna make this thread personally as well originally because I want some more certainty, and I am a bit of greenhorn and I could deffo be wrong.

It didn't really help the round ended just in the middle of the ahelp.

[Lumbermancer]

which makes it kinda inconsistent on the interpretation since it won't change on the manifest.

It does change on the AI manifest. And I was joking about the breathing.

[Dax Dupont]

which makes it kinda inconsistent on the interpretation since it won't change on the manifest.

It does change on the AI manifest. And I was joking about the breathing.

Ah, I didn't know that. I always figured that was a static thing.

[pubby]

what is the problem with AIs denying access to their upload

like, oh no, the captain can't upload his memey catgirl laws now

the game is ruined

better ban the AI player and get some spacelaw-esque policy implemented to always allow the captain to upload laws

muh chain of command, right?

but wait!

AIs that turn off their turrets during crisis so that some greyshirt can upload obvious validhunting laws like "revs are not human"? well sure! okay! that's good AI play. no problem whatsoever compared to the scum of AIs that bolt their upload roundstart

dumb policy just remove it

[Dax Dupont]

spacelaw-esque policy implemented to always allow the captain to upload laws

This is already the case for asimov due to law 2 unless they are known to do harm or if there's CERTAINTY they will upload harm laws do to law 1.
It's in the same guise you can't just bolt armory down on round start because they might be used to do harm sometime in the future.

There's already this policy that basically says AIs cannot deny access except for access based on jobs or knowing they will do harm.

It's where this whole discussion came from, IE: do we consider the hop to be a captain as the acting captain or not. What are the criteria. After introspection I think we should just use the manifest if they want to deny access and that lumbermancer was probably correct in this case. If there's an obvious fake captain or someone is impersonating as him, it will be up to to AI to decide I suppose whether law 1 will be violated over law 2.

[Lumbermancer]

Correct. Just yesterday captain announced he will non-human war ops, and I didn't let him do it.

[imblyings]

imo you can deny access to even captains and RD's but only until they met reasonable IC conditions e.g. came in with an escort, or someone to double check the laws, and that you approached situations consistently, so you couldn't let the clown in anytime it wanted but then deny all access to the captain. There's a lot of leeway as long as you have reasonable law-compliant IC explanations and it's all done reasonably consistently.

which admin was it anyway

[Dax Dupont]

imo you can deny access to even captains and RD's but only until they met reasonable IC conditions e.g. came in with an escort, or someone to double check the laws, and that you approached situations consistently, so you couldn't let the clown in anytime it wanted but then deny all access to the captain. There's a lot of leeway as long as you have reasonable law-compliant IC explanations and it's all done reasonably consistently.

which admin was it anyway

Me.

[imblyings]

"Any silicon under Asimov can deny orders to allow access to the upload at any time under Law 1 given probable cause to believe that human harm is the intent of the person giving the order (Referred to for the remainder of 2.1.6 simply as "probable cause")."

"Probable cause includes......the person not having upload access for their job..........In the absence of probable cause, you can still demand someone seeking upload access be accompanied by another trustworthy human or a cyborg."

Well it's in the rules there, and a job-change really is player-interpretation/situation-specific territory not entirely admin-interpretation territory, depending on the various IC things a player might want to base their actions off, otherwise the rules would have to start delineating just how low a previous rank someone is before AI's can deny upload access to acting captains and that's silly.

[Anonmare]

Citrus asked me for my opinion so I'll give it and explain my reasoning. For the record, the entirety of the rule is as follows:

Code: Select all

Any silicon under Asimov can deny orders to allow access to the upload at any time under Law 1 given probable cause to believe that human harm is the intent of the person giving the order (Referred to for the remainder of 2.1.6 simply as "probable cause").

    Probable cause includes presence of confirmed traitors, cultists/tomes, nuclear operatives, or any other human acting against the station in general; the person not having upload access for their job; the presence of blood or an openly carried lethal-capable or lethal-only weapon on the requester; or anything else beyond cross-round character, player, or metagame patterns that indicates the person seeking access intends redefinition of humans that would impede likelihood of or ability to follow current laws as-written.
    If you lack at least one element of probable cause and you deny upload access, you are liable to receive a warning or a silicon ban.
    You are allowed, but not obligated, to deny upload access given probable cause.
    You are obligated to disallow an individual you know to be harmful (Head of Security who just executed someone, etc.) from accessing your upload.
    In the absence of probable cause, you can still demand someone seeking upload access be accompanied by another trustworthy human or a cyborg.

Lumbermancer technically didn't have to deny Upload access to the HoP, seeing as the HoP had yet to show evidence of anything beyond not having roundstart access, but he is within his rights to as defined within silicon policy.

That being said, the absolute most crucial rule of playing AI is to be consistent in how you interpret and follow your gut. If Lumbermancer denied the HoP on no access grounds but let the clown in, there'd be an issue and that would definitely warrant admin intervention in my view.
But as mentioned in this thread, the RD and the Captain are authorised individuals and while I do not necessarily agree with Lumbermancer's opinion that the HoP changing his job title to Captain would have been fine, I cannot say he is wrong as he is following the letter of the rules and it's generally agreed-upon that AIs ought to follow the letter over the spirit of the Law.


Ultimately, I cannot see anything that Lumbermancer did incorrectly and I would actually advise against a headmin ruling as it's ultimately not necessary and would just cause issues the administration won't want to deal with.

[ohnopigeons]

Ausops said what I was going to, I'll just add a .

What I originally wrote:

Spoiler:

The problem is that this same line of reasoning can be used to completely deny Captains and the RD access to the Upload at all, even without a probable cause of harm, which is why this policy exists in the first place. It's definitely a grey area, and I'm inclined towards Dax's original viewpoint that, unless there was a given reason otherwise by the HoP himself, as acting Captain he should have been allowed in initially. Still this is an edge case in a really grey area and I don't think its worth having a definite policy covering this specific circumstance.

[ohnopigeons]

it's generally agreed-upon that AIs ought to follow the letter over the spirit of the Law.

I disagree with this, AI's and silicons need to follow their IC laws to the letter, while silicon server rules should really be followed and interpreted in spirit. Otherwise you get asimov AI's locking in, panic siphoning lizards or other nonhumans who punched a human, once.

[Dax Dupont]

When I said headmin ruling I meant either one that says hey this is open for AI interpretation or this should follow X.

There's a reason why I told him to make a thread and I was gonna make a thread myself if he didn't is that for me the wording seemed confusing and if we can just label it under AI interpretation I would be fine with it.

I just told him not to do it for now because I had mistakenly assumed my interpretation was the correct one and I wanted to get clarification on this.

I feel like I am deffo in the wrong with my interpretation after reading all of the helpful commentary in this thread.

[CitrusGender]

I think Ausops has the correct interpretation of this situation and I see no reason to add a specific clarification to silicon rules due to the fact that the question of whether or not the captain was really the "captain" is not a question of the rules. However, I disagree with this part in terms of gameplay:

Fact 1: They were Head of Personnel on the manifest, therefore their access to the upload was denied. Acting Captain rank means nothing to me.

I feel like this implies that there would have been a different action if the person was the "real" captain which I would find to be incorrect. We offer the AI a variety of possibilities to make their decisions and I think that an implanted HoP who is the sole authority on the ship which has shown they will not cause harm is someone I would consider a trustable individual which could be allowed into the chamber, though that entirely depends on the situation and often times the decision by the A.I. could vary depending on the situation (and that's okay!)

There are so many moving parts to this that it would be unwise to make a ruling and it would depend on the situation at the time and I would implore that silicon players look at the situation to determine if there is a reason to deny the HoP access on the grounds of law one. At the same time, it should be consistent with previous actions by the A.I.

tl;dr: Legitimate job change to captain/RD is an IC problem as to whether or not that this determines access to the upload for the A.I. player (though it is my personal recommendation that the A.I. see them as similar to a captain if they are implanted and not use it as the primary reason for denying access.)

[Lumbermancer]

Lumbermancer technically didn't have to deny Upload access to the HoP, seeing as the HoP had yet to show evidence of anything beyond not having roundstart access, but he is within his rights to as defined within silicon policy

I always thought this specific point was put in place to prevent abuse and use of AI as a cheap griefing tool.

I feel like this implies that there would have been a different action if the person was the "real" captain which I would find to be incorrect.

In that case my only action would be announcement of captain changing my laws over common channel. What should be the correct action, according to you?

[CitrusGender]

Lumbermancer technically didn't have to deny Upload access to the HoP, seeing as the HoP had yet to show evidence of anything beyond not having roundstart access, but he is within his rights to as defined within silicon policy

I always thought this specific point was put in place to prevent abuse and use of AI as a cheap griefing tool.

I feel like this implies that there would have been a different action if the person was the "real" captain which I would find to be incorrect.

In that case my only action would be announcement of captain changing my laws over common channel. What should be the correct action, according to you?

You can deny them on account of your belief that HoP was not implanted and may not have the capacity to upload laws that are in alignment with your original duty. You could argue that the HoP may still be affected by their previous position and is not fit to be making decisions that they were not trained such as making laws that prevent human harm. Again, I said it was my personal opinion so you're free to do what you want if you want to deny people just because they are not the real captain (though the underlying logic should be based off of law 1.) It was just my IC suggestion, this is really just case by case.