Amendment to Ban Appeal Policy

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Cobby
 
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Re: Amendment to Ban Appeal Policy

Postby Cobby » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:17 pm #398820

oranges wrote:this is fine, it's where someone extends someones ban for things that are outside the scope of the appeal, or due to their behaviour in the appeal thread that it's not okay.


Can you explain why it's not ok? Not in general, but specifically around purposefully lying in your appeal.

If it's because it will deter people from appealing as you said in the past, I think in this instance we would actually want these individuals to not appeal. They're wasting our time when I could be gaming!!!
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Re: Amendment to Ban Appeal Policy

Postby OhChildflayer » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:23 am #398848

The Clowns Pocket wrote:I really think it should be extended if you out and out lie in your appeal

Uh... I was under the impression that this is always how it worked. You lie to admins, you get hit harder. Didn't think ban appeals were any different.

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Re: Amendment to Ban Appeal Policy

Postby oranges » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:19 am #398876

Cobby wrote:
oranges wrote:this is fine, it's where someone extends someones ban for things that are outside the scope of the appeal, or due to their behaviour in the appeal thread that it's not okay.


Can you explain why it's not ok? Not in general, but specifically around purposefully lying in your appeal.

If it's because it will deter people from appealing as you said in the past, I think in this instance we would actually want these individuals to not appeal. They're wasting our time when I could be gaming!!!


A) punishing someone for appealing is dumb and unfair, even if they are rude and misleading

B) it gives too much power to the banning admin which can lead to abuse

C) historically we've not punished people in server for their behaviour out of server

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Dax Dupont
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Re: Amendment to Ban Appeal Policy

Postby Dax Dupont » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:27 am #398885

oranges wrote:
Cobby wrote:
oranges wrote:this is fine, it's where someone extends someones ban for things that are outside the scope of the appeal, or due to their behaviour in the appeal thread that it's not okay.


Can you explain why it's not ok? Not in general, but specifically around purposefully lying in your appeal.

If it's because it will deter people from appealing as you said in the past, I think in this instance we would actually want these individuals to not appeal. They're wasting our time when I could be gaming!!!


C) historically we've not punished people in server for their behaviour out of server


Haven't we banned people that raided other servers and mirrored bans from some places before?

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Re: Amendment to Ban Appeal Policy

Postby Rustledjimm » Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:11 am #398905

Rule 0, Precedent 3: Admins may mirror bans from other servers at their discretion.

Any ban put in place for actions taken outside the server will always be a rule 0 banning. This is how it will be kept, the two examples shown in this thread so far were rule 0 uses. (The only exception to this being Rule 9, the 18+ rule. Though a connection to the server at least once would be required so still technically an action on the server I guess.)

This is how it has always been and I see no reason to change it.
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Dax Dupont
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Re: Amendment to Ban Appeal Policy

Postby Dax Dupont » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:05 pm #398970

Rustledjimm wrote:Rule 0, Precedent 3: Admins may mirror bans from other servers at their discretion.

Any ban put in place for actions taken outside the server will always be a rule 0 banning. This is how it will be kept, the two examples shown in this thread so far were rule 0 uses. (The only exception to this being Rule 9, the 18+ rule. Though a connection to the server at least once would be required so still technically an action on the server I guess.)

This is how it has always been and I see no reason to change it.

I'm fine with this, was just stating that point C was wrong.

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Re: Amendment to Ban Appeal Policy

Postby oranges » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:55 pm #399053

itt newfags who don't have any concept of historically

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Re: Amendment to Ban Appeal Policy

Postby The Clowns Pocket » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:38 am #399116

OhChildflayer wrote:
The Clowns Pocket wrote:I really think it should be extended if you out and out lie in your appeal

Uh... I was under the impression that this is always how it worked. You lie to admins, you get hit harder. Didn't think ban appeals were any different.

I mean I suppose the real debate is if something like a tempban can be outright pushed to a permaban if the person lies. Example

The Clowns Pocket: Hi it says I am banned for 1 week for killing 4 people including the captain as a nonantag but like i didnt do it!
Admin*: Dude the logs say you attacked them, and you know what else? You have a history of doing shit like spamming coms with woodies too! That's it, I'm upgrading this to a perma!


I mean, under this case I'm not going to argue whether or not its just (if I dont like it then I can find another server) but it would quickly paint a really sour image to the admins that'd be really hard to remedy. One I remember the place having a long ass time ago and thankfully doesn't seem to stick. For this reason I'd personally advise AGAINST upgrading temps to permas unless like, there's concrete evidance to suggest that they are just trying to shit on the server (poo joke)


HOWEVER I see no reason in accepting an appeal if the person lies in it - and yes, if they make another appeal then you should hold their dishonesty against them.

From Imblyings in the "Ban appeal forum rules" thread in the ban appeals subforum:
Lie in an appeal and it gets denied solely on admin discretion, no matter how justified the appeal might be otherwise. Feign regret or that you've learned a lesson if you must but making up false details or leaving details out just doesn't help you.

*I wanted to put a funny swing at some moderator at random but I didn't know who'd find the joke funny vs a personal attack
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Re: Amendment to Ban Appeal Policy

Postby cedarbridge » Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:16 pm #399158

The Clowns Pocket wrote:I mean I suppose the real debate is if something like a tempban can be outright pushed to a permaban if the person lies. Example

The Clowns Pocket: Hi it says I am banned for 1 week for killing 4 people including the captain as a nonantag but like i didnt do it!
Admin*: Dude the logs say you attacked them, and you know what else? You have a history of doing shit like spamming coms with woodies too! That's it, I'm upgrading this to a perma!


I'd be less ok with this particular example, actually. Extension for lying would need to rise to a level where it intersects with the reason the ban was placed. Waiting for the appeal to be made and then saying "Yeah well you've got a shitter history" is a fine reason to deny the appeal, but it works in bad faith against the appeal process if you use it to extend or expand a ban only at the time of appeal. It gives the player the impression that had they not appealed at all, they wouldn't have copped a ban for an unrelated reason. That said, If a player takes everyone on a 3 page thrillride of denial and deceit over whatever the hell they did in the first place (non-antag murder seems like a common one where people intentionally lie about the events) and do so in the face of clear evidence then that should evidence itself that the player is not interested in reform and is inviting the extension to their ban as a remedial measure.

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Re: Amendment to Ban Appeal Policy

Postby The Clowns Pocket » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:27 pm #399226

cedarbridge wrote:
The Clowns Pocket wrote:I mean I suppose the real debate is if something like a tempban can be outright pushed to a permaban if the person lies. Example

The Clowns Pocket: Hi it says I am banned for 1 week for killing 4 people including the captain as a nonantag but like i didnt do it!
Admin*: Dude the logs say you attacked them, and you know what else? You have a history of doing shit like spamming coms with woodies too! That's it, I'm upgrading this to a perma!


I'd be less ok with this particular example, actually. Extension for lying would need to rise to a level where it intersects with the reason the ban was placed. Waiting for the appeal to be made and then saying "Yeah well you've got a shitter history" is a fine reason to deny the appeal, but it works in bad faith against the appeal process if you use it to extend or expand a ban only at the time of appeal. It gives the player the impression that had they not appealed at all, they wouldn't have copped a ban for an unrelated reason. That said, If a player takes everyone on a 3 page thrillride of denial and deceit over whatever the hell they did in the first place (non-antag murder seems like a common one where people intentionally lie about the events) and do so in the face of clear evidence then that should evidence itself that the player is not interested in reform and is inviting the extension to their ban as a remedial measure.

I kinda wanted to make an extreme example of what to avoid. If the guys doing it for 2-3 whole pages even after being directly called out on it then I could see a good case to upgrade it? Slippery slopes are a big thing when you stick to precedants.

Plus the other thing to consider is the mentality here. In most cases for normal players (IE ones that arnt just playing to shit things up) if you are appealing a tempban (like anything from a few minutes to even a week) then it's because the ban itself was unjust or incorrect. If you've actually done something wrong (and I've been in this position myself I'll admit...) then the easier thing to do is to just wait it out. Save face. Besides, even though you agreed privately that you shoulden't upgrade bans, this doesn't mean I wont suddenly be the exception yknow?

On the flipside, if its a perma it looks like most players will go for "appeal immediately" instead of "Yknow, maybe I should wait a bit..." which doesn't help in trying to decide if a player is trying to add poo or looking to seriously reform their behavior. Still if my playerhistory and notecount is any consideration things are considerably more tame and it's a hell of a lot harder to stick a perma then it once was.
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Re: Amendment to Ban Appeal Policy

Postby Cobby » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:41 pm #399907

oranges wrote:
Cobby wrote:
oranges wrote:this is fine, it's where someone extends someones ban for things that are outside the scope of the appeal, or due to their behaviour in the appeal thread that it's not okay.


Can you explain why it's not ok? Not in general, but specifically around purposefully lying in your appeal.

If it's because it will deter people from appealing as you said in the past, I think in this instance we would actually want these individuals to not appeal. They're wasting our time when I could be gaming!!!


A) punishing someone for appealing is dumb and unfair, even if they are rude and misleading

B) it gives too much power to the banning admin which can lead to abuse

C) historically we've not punished people in server for their behaviour out of server


A) No because it's a videogame and if you can't at least pretend to play nice with others I don't think it's outlandish to be btfo'd from the sandbox.

B) Like Rule 0 which admins can already inflict? If it's used to abuse then that needs to be handled by headmins as with every other incident.

C) I mean we can inform players about this change to make this a nonissue.
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Re: Amendment to Ban Appeal Policy

Postby starmute » Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:34 am #399949

Opinion

To punish someone for being a dick in a ban appeal you should have to get 2/3 Head Admins to approve of it (if a headmin is involved in the initial appeal it should be 3/3). I think sometimes admins don't think rationally when involved. I also think that ban extensions should be used sparingly if used at all.

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Re: Amendment to Ban Appeal Policy

Postby Cobby » Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:46 pm #400411

I think punishing based on the appeal (in general) and punishing because you purposefully lie in the appeal are two separate conversations in this thread with the former not being up for discussion (put it in a different thread if that’s what you want please).
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Re: Amendment to Ban Appeal Policy

Postby The Clowns Pocket » Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:22 pm #400416

I say this because I've been in this situation once. How do you know then if someones lying vs being truthful but also incorrect?

Years ago I got secbanned (now appealed) because I lasered someone as a HoS to death. But I thought I shot them only once - and I said this in my appeal.

Granted I managed to talk down a perma to just a sec/command ban, but it didn't look good
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Re: Amendment to Ban Appeal Policy

Postby ohnopigeons » Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:49 pm #400420

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"
That's it. For something you can't definitely, 100% prove, err on the side of innocence. That's all you have to do.
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Re: Amendment to Ban Appeal Policy

Postby Cobby » Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:56 am #400427

The Clowns Pocket wrote:I say this because I've been in this situation once. How do you know then if someones lying vs being truthful but also incorrect?

Years ago I got secbanned (now appealed) because I lasered someone as a HoS to death. But I thought I shot them only once - and I said this in my appeal.

Granted I managed to talk down a perma to just a sec/command ban, but it didn't look good


players have logs now so hopefully this will be minimal. If a situation arises where someone makes a mistake then we can give them the benefit of the doubt, but blatant “so what now” type appeals are the real offenders here.
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Re: Amendment to Ban Appeal Policy

Postby legoscape » Wed May 09, 2018 4:41 am #408451

The Clowns Pocket wrote:I really think it should be extended if you out and out lie in your appeal


+1
If you are lying on your appeal to be unbanned it should be an extended ban and or extended time to appeal your ban.
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Re: Amendment to Ban Appeal Policy

Postby The Clowns Pocket » Wed May 09, 2018 4:10 pm #408567

legoscape wrote:
The Clowns Pocket wrote:I really think it should be extended if you out and out lie in your appeal


+1
If you are lying on your appeal to be unbanned it should be an extended ban and or extended time to appeal your ban.


Yes but to be clear I mean outright LIE and like, double down on it when its called out.
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