Is it okay to powergame the powergamers?

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Mickyan
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Is it okay to powergame the powergamers?

Post by Mickyan » #401697

What I mean specifically, is how much we're allowed to consider and exploit patterns in behaviour in between rounds.

A concrete example: I have observed many times a certain player that for the vast majority of rounds he's playing (never seen him play anything other than assistant) will rush for the insulated gloves and attempt to break into the captain's quarters/AI upload/other highly restricted areas within the first two minutes of the round, regardless of antag status. When caught he will typically either go braindead or cause more trouble if later released. Technically not breaking any rules as he's not killing anybody, although arguably sometimes kill baiting by doing things like breaking into the armory and shooting people in """self defence""".

So far I've turned a blind eye unless I see him actually commit a crime despite knowing for a fact if I were to "random search" him while he's running around in full greytide gear he'd be loaded with stuff he shouldn't have. Perhaps that can be considered metagaming/metagrudging but part of me feels like that kind of play-style doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt.

By the way, is there probable cause to detain assistants wearing insulated gloves? They used to count as contraband but I haven't played in a while and they're way easier to get nowadays without necessarily breaking into restricted areas.
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CPTANT
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Re: Is it okay to powergame the powergamers?

Post by CPTANT » #401700

I always just execute people breaking into captains quarter at roundstart.

stun em and toss em into the teleporter to some nice cold piece of space.
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imblyings
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Re: Is it okay to powergame the powergamers?

Post by imblyings » #401710

Anyone breaking into the captain's office, ai upload, or armoury, make themselves very valid to security and heads, and less so to other station crew. Anyone breaking into those areas, especially the armoury, with the intent to cause conflict and find excuses to fight in '''self defence''''''', can be banned if they report being killed for their crimes or kill as a result of '''self defence'''''. There are rare exceptions.

There really isn't probable cause for random assistant searches just because they have gloves but excuses are cheap, if you know about break-ins or theft on the station, then it's not unreasonable to conduct random searches to get that gear back.
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Re: Is it okay to powergame the powergamers?

Post by ohnopigeons » #401745

As HoP, I like promoting assistants who break into Captain's Office roundstart into Captains, thereby giving them the responsibility and visibility they were ultimately trying to avoid when they signed up as an assistant.

Anyways, what you're describing borders on metagrudging. If you must, I'd say it's okay to be extra observant of them for any crime or wrong-doing, to which you may then react appropriately. Insulated gloves in and of itself is not a probable cause.
Mickyan wrote:When caught he will typically either go braindead or cause more trouble if later released.
This is what the gulag is for; it's a tool that is very apt at dealing with these kinds players.
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Re: Is it okay to powergame the powergamers?

Post by SpaceInaba » #401747

honestly dont randomsearch them just camp out in the captain's office and the split second he crowbars the door open blast his ass
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Deitus
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Re: Is it okay to powergame the powergamers?

Post by Deitus » #401749

I'm fairly certain I know who you're talking about and he really is just a massive shitter, causes a bunch of problems if he doesn't get antag then suicides or ghosts when he's caught. Whenever I see him do this dumb shit I just 1000 point gulag him or execute him, he's not worth the time or trouble.

If someone breaks into the captains office they are 100% valid. Beat their asses and space them. If the hop gave them access without the captains permission then demote and gulag them both. I have zero patience for these kinds of situations.
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Re: Is it okay to powergame the powergamers?

Post by SaveVatznick » #401750

Don't metagrudge, just do what Inaba says and camp the captain's office + disposals spot. As soon as you either see him or hear him hack an airlock to the office, go at him. Preferrably with a flashbang because multiple people like to rush the ID.
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Re: Is it okay to powergame the powergamers?

Post by Lazengann » #401764

Metagrudge them if you want but don't be dumb enough to admit it to the admins. It's fine to use knowledge of players you've gotten from previous rounds but arguing that point in bwoinks is a waste of time when you can just say you saw them outside of a crime scene wearing gloves
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Re: Is it okay to powergame the powergamers?

Post by somerandomguy » #401768

Code blue allows searches with reason. An assistant wearing gloves after [sensitive area] was hacked into is a fairly good reason.
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Re: Is it okay to powergame the powergamers?

Post by Mickyan » #401775

imblyings wrote:There really isn't probable cause for random assistant searches just because they have gloves but excuses are cheap, if you know about break-ins or theft on the station, then it's not unreasonable to conduct random searches to get that gear back.
Basically consider this hypothetical situation:
- Assistant Greytide likes to break into the captain's office at roundstart
- Someone breaks into the captain's office at roundstart, we have no suspects
- I spot Assistant Greytide wearing a welding mask and insulated gloves, and using my knowledge of his play-style I single him out for a random search

I don't think this situation would classify as metagrudging, quoting the Rule 2 precedents:
Similar to how characters are allowed to know everything about ingame mechanics or antagonists under rule 2, characters are allowed to have persistent knowledge/relationships/friendships with the caveat that knowledge of a character being an antagonist from a previous round is not used.
Given that antag status is not relevant here, I think it would be reasonable for me to recognize somebody's modus operandi and history of being a troublemaker, especially considering how obvious they are about it.

Again, I am not trying to argue that I should be able to constantly search them for their name alone, but rather based on suspicions that can arise from patterns observed in the previous rounds.
Deitus wrote:he's not worth the time or trouble.
It's a sad state of affairs but that's why I've been trying to avoid getting involved at all so far, I just wanted to set the record straight. Kinda makes me want to stop playing security all-together, though. There's a few regulars like that and they're usually well known so I doubt I'd be blowing anyone's mind if I named and shamed.
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Re: Is it okay to powergame the powergamers?

Post by Shaps-cloud » #401780

tbqh if someone is consistently terrible enough to make it noticeable they should be open to the consequences, or at least added admin scrutiny because it's infuriating having to act like someone's acting in good faith when you know they're not and will just braindead and do the same thing the next round if you stop them
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Re: Is it okay to powergame the powergamers?

Post by WarbossLincoln » #401783

When I play sec I basically always keep a closer eye on the well known shitters I'm aware of, but I don't act against them until they actually do anything. I might hang nearby a big longer, or if I see them in a place that's not normal for their job I might make a mental note to check on them later. But no, until they actually do something or I have reason to search them I don't act on them.
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Lazengann
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Re: Is it okay to powergame the powergamers?

Post by Lazengann » #401810

Mickyan wrote:Basically consider this hypothetical situation:
- Assistant Greytide likes to break into the captain's office at roundstart
- Someone breaks into the captain's office at roundstart, we have no suspects
- I spot Assistant Greytide wearing a welding mask and insulated gloves, and using my knowledge of his play-style I single him out for a random search

I don't think this situation would classify as metagrudging, quoting the Rule 2 precedents:
I agree with this, the server's roleplay standards are "you don't have to play dumb about things" and I don't see why this would be different.
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Re: Is it okay to powergame the powergamers?

Post by kevinz000 » #401824

Shaps-cloud wrote:tbqh if someone is consistently terrible enough to make it noticeable they should be open to the consequences, or at least added admin scrutiny because it's infuriating having to act like someone's acting in good faith when you know they're not and will just braindead and do the same thing the next round if you stop them
People who go that far can and will be punished by admins, to be fair.
Otherwise personally I'd say act in good faith. Don't metagrudge one guy over it. If you see a pattern of breakins have a camera monitored or just off hand tell the ai to tell you if someone breaks in.
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Re: Is it okay to powergame the powergamers?

Post by kevinz000 » #401825

Also while slightly rude (lol) if someone with insuls broke into cap office and you search likely people with insuls I don't think many admins will care.
Personally (opinion) I try to match fibers too but if you really need something back (spare id anyone?) It's not unreasonable at all.
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Re: Is it okay to powergame the powergamers?

Post by Rustledjimm » #401905

As an engineer, any non-engineer with insuls is valid.

But seriously yeah, if someone is going around hacking doors and you don't know who checking people who are wearing the only protection to being shocked isn't a bad move.


Edit: I should also add that if someone is constantly trying to break into the Captains Office, armoury etc. etc. at round start that is an administrative issue and you should inform an admin.
So uhh, I'm an admin. Please leave feedback! Oops took me a while to strike that through.

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Re: Is it okay to powergame the powergamers?

Post by MaximumOverlizard » #401917

Just use the security cameras.
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