Why were moodlets turned off?

Post by **oranges** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:16 am #404651

No public discussion, no poll, nothing?

I enjoy this feature a lot and I think it adds a lot to the round. People who don't like can take the trait that minimises it's impact.

Please turn it back on or at least attempt to be transparent with changes you're making

captain sawrge · Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:21 am

its Bad

RogueSteampunker · Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:22 am

The sad part is that I can't tell if Oranges is just fucking around or not.

The_Dreamweaver · Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:24 am

no vote? no democracy! Down with the headmins.

But seriously, this should have been polled, just like a pr must pass the maintainers.

BebeYoshi · Post by **BebeYoshi** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:25 am #404660

I don't see why it should it be turned off, turn it back on >:(

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:31 am #404662

two things

seeing static because you are hungry and the room is dirty is fucking retarded

why does the hunger message say "my belly is round and full"? Why not just "im full"? Shit is strange and mildly creepy

Also top fucking lel at oranges all of a sudden giving a shit what the players think

Post by **oranges** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:32 am #404665

I'm not sure why you're attacking me? I'm making this thread because I enjoyed moodlets, nothing to do with "players"

I don't like the dirty mechanic and I think it should be removed.

edit: what concerns me more is the seeming underhanded way it was done.

Neither citrus or arm could account for the change, which means one of the headmins or someone else? is acting without asking the others and they didn't take the time to socialise the change with players either.

That's super, super worrying and i hope we can clear up the confusion here

subject217 · Post by **subject217** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:33 am #404666

Wyzack wrote:seeing static because you are hungry and the room is dirty is fucking retarded

So because you have an issue with one particularly poorly implemented feature of moodlets that pretty much nobody will defend, they deserve to be shut off unceremoniously by a single headmin?

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:36 am #404668

Not saying that, but i think they need some serious reworking

and the player thing was mostly about the fact that oranges you have told people to fuck off before and that player opinion doesn't matter, and now you are trying to use a poll to get something back in

Post by **oranges** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:38 am #404671

I added the poll because bebeyoshi made a passing comment, I expect it will have zero impact on the outcome of the thread, but it does provide a way for people to leave a support/decline without having to post

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:40 am #404672

Shadowflame909 · Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:45 am

Early moodlets give me trauma whenever I see them now. "THE ROOM IS DIRTY." (Just a dirt spot in the corner of the room you literally cannot see) "IM HUNGRY" OH FUCK YOU'RE TRIPPING OUT YOU'RE FEELING UNHINGED "I'M LONELY" OH FUCK YOU'RE INSANE AHAHAHAHAH. Bad times!!!!

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:47 am #404688

From average worker to blindingly postal in 30 minutes because you skipped lunch.
Sounds about right for SS13 but still fucking stupid.

Post by **oranges** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:50 am #404689

if we make them have a different impact powergamers will complain, what do you suggest they should do instead?

Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:01 am

Wyzack wrote:two things

seeing static because you are hungry and the room is dirty is fucking retarded

why does the hunger message say "my belly is round and full"? Why not just "im full"? Shit is strange and mildly creepy

ooh no boo hooo

less shitposty edit: quantify this claim. i understand those might be flaws with the system, but i would like you to prove to me that they are big enough flaws that are so problematic that the system as a whole should be disabled.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:05 am #404699

I dont have to prove shit I didnt disable them

Shadowflame909 · Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:05 am

Here are my problems with the system PKpenguino. 1. I have to hug harold before I table him. Why do you gotta make me perform awkward actions to keep this rapid paced screen changing filter and annoying sound meme alive! 2. It either doesn't add much or it adds too much. See my reasons for 1, I don't want to go insane because i'm walking down the halls and there's no janitor or a lights busted and I get a negative moodlet because "Wtf is engineering doing?" It decreases way too fast, it needs to be improved on and lastly its early stages were pretty bad and I say it should be re-named to get rid of its negative vibes.

onleavedontatme · Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:09 am

I might have brain problems but that creepy face rapidly changing distracts me so badly I have trouble enjoying the game

I feel compelled to go run and shower every two minutes because I need to counteract the dirty trash I cant even see 2 screens away in a main hall. OCD is not a fun thing to simulate.

And then my food buff wears out and I try to eat again but now I am sad from eating too much.

I already felt good as a person from saving a player or getting a hug, I already felt a sense of chaos and stress when I and the halls are covered in blood, why do I need a clunky bar to tally it and tell me how I feel?

onleavedontatme · Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:17 am

I also did take the Apathetic trait and the face still changes wildly as I enter and exit rooms. I think it is much more the pscyhology of a constant alert than any mechanical impact that makes me dislike this so much. Old hunger you dealt with a couple times around, this is constant upkeep.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:29 am #404721

The true secret to eternal happiness is smoking in the shower with a burrito in hand while a clown hugs you.

Qustinnus · Post by **Qustinnus** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:25 am #404741

Im still down on working on improvements for mood, however I took a short break from coding after every mention I received was some rant about why mood is shit and that im attempting to kill tg's gameplay.

Im not really interested in fighting whether mood should stay or go either, I think it should and I've posted my arguments for it before. But like I said Id love to work on any problems that are still in the system and iterate on the design of mood.

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:09 am #404748

Since when are headmins compelled to make a poll whenever they make a decision? They already have the mandate from the people to enact changes. At most, we can expect a poll to re-enable moodlets if there's enough outcry over it, just like it happened when Lzimann disabled cats without consulting the other headmins, but a poll is never and has never been needed for headmins to make changes no matter how radical they were (other example, ERP)

Post by **oranges** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:24 am #404753

it's extremely concerning that two thirds of the headmins had no idea. at the very least I would expect a headmin to socialise their decision with the other two headmins well before doing it.

they are a triumvirate.

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:36 am #404756

ERP was shut off unceremoniously by a single headmin (HG, who was just a replacement headmin at the time, not even elected) with the other headmins not caring/knowing about it. Cats were shut off by Lzimann on his last day on the term, and the other 2 headmins didn't know about it either. Both times people who dared say that it wasn't a good way to handle things were insulted and called names because the feature was "objectively bad" so no discussion with the playerbase (or with the other headmins, for what it's worth) was needed. So we have already established that only the quality and value of the feature itself is worth discussing, not the way it is removed.

I personally think moodlets don't fit the server playstyle and I don't mind them being removed, but I don't have a strong opinion about them either because I don't find them that annoying. They were forced on the server so, as I said, a simple server poll will tell if the playerbase really wants them back

Post by **oranges** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:45 am #404760

you're just saying examples that are also bad and using it to justify this one, it doesn't make any sense

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:02 am #404762

I thought they were bad but I've come to accept that's the way things are handled around here. That's why I don't share your outrage over this

Post by **oranges** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:19 am #404766

then you're dumber than you look

ohnopigeons · Post by **ohnopigeons** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:23 am #404767

Lzi's cat removal was reversed and there was a fair amount of outrage over the circumstances. I'm not entirely sure HG's ERP removal counts as being unconsulted, especially if the other headmins became inactive as was somewhat common during those times.

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:25 am #404768

ohnopigeons wrote:Lzi's cat removal was reversed and there was a fair amount of outrage over the circumstances.

It was reversed after a server poll. So just make a poll and see if players want moodlets back

Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:20 am

The idea about removing it was brought up but we (the headmins) didn't vote on it.

To be honest though, we were all pretty apathetic about it. Kor did an impromptu admin vote where most people voted against moodlets when asked (though obviously it was impromptu as fuck.) I didn't have a problem with it and Arm was okay with it being "reverted" so that's likely why it happened the way it did.

I still am not very zealous either way and I'll take some time to think about it.

edit: recommend to OP, the thread should be more about whether or not moodlets should be disabled since that's really the main topic atm.

Post by **Dax Dupont** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:03 am #404789

Remove them, it doesn't add much to the game.
Though we need to add hunger slow downs again I think since moodlets took it over. Not sure if disabling moodlets also reenables slowdowns on hunger only.

onleavedontatme · Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:42 am

CitrusGender wrote:The idea about removing it was brought up but we (the headmins) didn't vote on it.

To be honest though, we were all pretty apathetic about it. Kor did an impromptu admin vote where most people voted against moodlets when asked (though obviously it was impromptu as fuck.) I didn't have a problem with it and Arm was okay with it being "reverted" so that's likely why it happened the way it did.

I still am not very zealous either way and I'll take some time to think about it.

edit: recommend to OP, the thread should be more about whether or not moodlets should be disabled since that's really the main topic atm.

Just to clarify since this makes it sound like I turned it off, I did not turn it off (though I obviously want it off and am happy it is off).

Stickymayhem · Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:17 pm

Can we bring them back after the next round of changes because I still think this system has lots of potential.

Dr_bee · Post by **Dr_bee** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:25 pm #404807

Stickymayhem wrote:Can we bring them back after the next round of changes because I still think this system has lots of potential.

The system is overall better than the hunger system that it replaced, and integrates very well with the traits system. I dont think that a system should be turned off just because it is in a rough state. I mean half of SS13 is basically beta testing coder additions, if people cant be patient and tolerate some roughness for awhile then they should probably play non-open-source games in my opinion.

Lumbermancer · Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:19 pm

I don't even know what the fuck it did.

Not-Dorsidarf · Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:25 pm

Dr_bee wrote:
Stickymayhem wrote:Can we bring them back after the next round of changes because I still think this system has lots of potential.
The system is overall better than the hunger system that it replaced, and integrates very well with the traits system. I dont think that a system should be turned off just because it is in a rough state. I mean half of SS13 is basically beta testing coder additions, if people cant be patient and tolerate some roughness for awhile then they should probably play non-open-source games in my opinion.

The problem is that simultaneously, people were up in arms about it being impossible to satisfy and being permanently in the "I'm so sad i need to be hugged by clowns constantly while eating junkfood in the shower to not go mad" zone - while at the same time different people find the system totally unengaging and having no effect on their rounds beyond eating a snack bar every 30 minutes no matter what happens and what condition they're in. The fact that these states coincide mean theres something deeply wrong with the system that ratcheting a few values up and down probbably wont fix.

And that is, of course, ignoring the elephant in the room that is the fact thata lot of people hate being told how their character is feeling and reacts to things. Its like if your DM said "You are so overcome by the majesty of the moment that you collapse to the ground and cry", dictating what you do instead of what situation you're in. Taking away player agency, however justified that might be in making people act less like violent robots, is always, always going to seriously piss off a large chunk of the playerbase in a roleplaying character-driven game.

captain sawrge · Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:05 pm

Lumbermancer wrote:I don't even know what the fuck it did.

If you didn't eat enough you started to see static and a weird little man gave you disapproving glances for walking through blood.

Lumbermancer · Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:12 pm

I thought it was just a hunger effect. Other than face changing colour I didn't notice any other effect.

ohnopigeons · Post by **ohnopigeons** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:25 pm #404844

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:The problem is that simultaneously, people were up in arms about it being impossible to satisfy and being permanently in the "I'm so sad i need to be hugged by clowns constantly while eating junkfood in the shower to not go mad" zone - while at the same time different people find the system totally unengaging and having no effect on their rounds beyond eating a snack bar every 30 minutes no matter what happens and what condition they're in. The fact that these states coincide mean theres something deeply wrong with the system that ratcheting a few values up and down probbably wont fix.

And that is, of course, ignoring the elephant in the room that is the fact thata lot of people hate being told how their character is feeling and reacts to things. Its like if your DM said "You are so overcome by the majesty of the moment that you collapse to the ground and cry", dictating what you do instead of what situation you're in. Taking away player agency, however justified that might be in making people act less like violent robots, is always, always going to seriously piss off a large chunk of the playerbase in a roleplaying character-driven game.

The disparity of experience is a player problem, not a system one as it is mathematically additive and therefore innocent. The only multiplicative factor is the apathetic trait which reduces all mood changes by 20%. I suspect most of the disparity comes from room conditions, which have the biggest mood change values. A lot of players are manchildren who don't clean up after themselves, so the system is punishing these people (as well as people who spend time in dirty rooms without cleaning up after others). Players who make any half-assed effort to keep the rooms they work and stay in clean (as well as a moderate attempt at self-care) will find mood to almost be a non-factor.

The roleplay aspect is addressed by the traits system. Anyone who feels that the traits system is lacking a particular style of their roleplay is free to make suggestions or, even better, code it themselves.

There are some tweaks I would personally make to moodlets but overall I think it's a great system and a great addition to the game.

Lumbermancer wrote:I don't even know what the fuck it did.

It also affected your move speed.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:29 pm #404847

How are people actually having problems with moodlets, every time I play I always stay at neutral.

onleavedontatme · Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:34 pm

ohnopigeons wrote:things

You mentioned area beauty, that might be it. People on basil dealing with 90 person rounds are going to be dealing with a signicantly larger mess than people in low-medium sybil rounds.

Post by **Armhulen** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:38 pm #404849

When i've played moodlets have mostly never been an issue, i'd get sad about being hungry and i'd have a bite and shower and i'd be happy for a good long time

seems ok, but like i said it should be more revolved around fixing negative moodlets. there should be a positive moodlet for cleaning blood, etc

ohnopigeons · Post by **ohnopigeons** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:41 pm #404851

Kor wrote:You mentioned area beauty, that might be it. People on basil dealing with 90 person rounds are going to be dealing with a signicantly larger mess than people in low-medium sybil rounds.

Both go to shit but Sybil takes a bit longer. I mainly play on Bagil and the issue can be dealt with ICly, such as asking the HoP to open up more janitor slots and putting them on priority or yelling at the roboticist to make an army of cleanbots. Or just staying inside your department like a shut-in works fine too.

Qustinnus · Post by **Qustinnus** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:43 pm #404852

Lumbermancer wrote:I thought it was just a hunger effect. Other than face changing colour I didn't notice any other effect.

Thats because it only does anything if you stay in the negative for too long, which usually only happens if you are too caveman to eat once every 40 minutes.

Qustinnus · Post by **Qustinnus** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:45 pm #404853

Kor wrote:
ohnopigeons wrote:things
You mentioned area beauty, that might be it. People on basil dealing with 90 person rounds are going to be dealing with a signicantly larger mess than people in low-medium sybil rounds.

Area beauty was an experiment, and I wanted to expand on it while lessening the effect of things being dirty. But people dislike it too much and I'm sick of it being used as an argument against all of mood so I'll probably just remove it. Because half of the problems with mood could just be fixed if people came up to me and asked without being assholes about it.

Mickyan · Post by **Mickyan** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:48 pm #404855

Considering every negative comment mentioned rooms being dirty as the biggest annoyance there might be a solution here that doesn't include burning the whole barn down. Maybe what we really need is more feedback given in good faith

Specifically while I think room beauty is a good idea in theory, the way blood and dirt is currently handled in the game makes it nearly impossible for the station not to look like a slaughterhouse as the round goes on. It's an issue that I think need to be resolved eventually, but it would be better tackled at a time when moodlets as a whole are in a less precarious state

I would say I wouldn't mind mood being currently disabled if it meant allowing Qustinnus to smooth the rough edges off without being constantly harrassed but disabling it like that without a word seems like an attempt to sweep it under the rug and forget about it

ohnopigeons · Post by **ohnopigeons** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:53 pm #404857

Area beauty was the buff the janitors needed, please don't remove it.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:54 pm #404858

Yeah let's just buff janitor clean ability if area beauty is a problem

And tell engineering to build expensive pretty stuff

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:55 pm #404859

I think I can live with moodlets being turned back on if you give me a mop that wets a 3x3 area.
Or a foam backpack like Atmos has except its space cleaner. do it

captain sawrge · Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:58 pm

ohnopigeons wrote:Area beauty was the buff the janitors needed, please don't remove it.

Flavor/fluff oriented jobs do not need "buffs" or balancing.

moodlets back on