/tg/Station 13

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... e52#unread

I'm going to try to avoid making this a pseudo-extension of the ban appeal, but I'm just a bit confused.

• There are known xenos on the mining base (well they at least trashed the place). You go check it out and see facehuggers so you immediately go back up before the xenos board. You obviously don't want to go down there again because you're bottlenecked on the shuttle.
• They destroyed comms, and a guy who was meant to go down there is gone. You can't communicate with them. You don't exactly care about ghost roles because you're not sure if they even exist and they are irrelevant in terms of ensuring the safety of the crew.
• So you go down there and boh bomb, but you get banned because the 1hit stun mobs happened to not be there (lol have fun walking, priming the bag, and confirming the choice while avoid getting stunned) and it killed a singular crewman who you were unable to communicate with. It also made it impossible to go to lavaland (that was the point I think).

In what situation would it be ok for a nonantag to boh bomb? Remember, even if you don't kill anyone directly it still often ends in a ban because it's a devastating action. Since i'm making this thread you can probably assume I'd be okay with a boh bomb in this case, as there's no investment on lavaland, and anyone who goes down there risks bringing them back up if not helping them multiply. They had no way of knowing about the singular crewman, and admins expecting them to find someone in the midst of 1hit stun mobs that have at least been present on the mining base (facehuggers and resin structures) while being bottlenecked due to the only entrance/exit being the shuttle is a bit asinine.

If you can't answer that, why do we even allow for nonantags to boh bomb then? It just seems like bait if every time it's done it's either grief (= ban)/ deemed not worth doing by the admins (= ban). If the only situation it is ever okay to boh bomb is by being an antagonist, then we should remove the confirmation and add an antag check to it (preferred solution, although not policy) or just have an explicit rule that says "don't boh bomb as non-antag. Ever. Any reason" since it's clear that players (slig not included) and even admins are assuming it's sometimes alright.

To stop ticking Syndie Nuke, to stop Nar Nar summoning.

if it improves the round i won't ban you for it

I think the consequences are the point. It's always been the case that a maxcap on a wizard will get you banned if you miss, and the same is true of boh on a bigger scale.

If there is a risk of disaster and you still take that risk in an attempt for glory, you live or die by the RNG.

If you are going to complain "I couldn't have predicted this result", then steer clear of that decision. If you play the odds and lose accept the ban.

Stickymayhem wrote:I think the consequences are the point. It's always been the case that a maxcap on a wizard will get you banned if you miss, and the same is true of boh on a bigger scale.

If there is a risk of disaster and you still take that risk in an attempt for glory, you live or die by the RNG.

If you are going to complain "I couldn't have predicted this result", then steer clear of that decision. If you play the odds and lose accept the ban.

.

Stickymayhem wrote:I think the consequences are the point. It's always been the case that a maxcap on a wizard will get you banned if you miss, and the same is true of boh on a bigger scale.

If there is a risk of disaster and you still take that risk in an attempt for glory, you live or die by the RNG.

If you are going to complain "I couldn't have predicted this result", then steer clear of that decision. If you play the odds and lose accept the ban.

honestly

Stickymayhem wrote:I think the consequences are the point. It's always been the case that a maxcap on a wizard will get you banned if you miss, and the same is true of boh on a bigger scale.

If there is a risk of disaster and you still take that risk in an attempt for glory, you live or die by the RNG.

If you are going to complain "I couldn't have predicted this result", then steer clear of that decision. If you play the odds and lose accept the ban.

To me there is a difference between obtaining valids (bomb the antag on the station banking on the round being over as you do it) and defending the station (see trying to disarm a bomb or in this case bohing lavaland so the round ender doesn't make its way there).

That's not even including the obvious fact that wizard has an escape mechanism (tp spells or the scroll he 100% always has) that others don't.

This is probably another thread entirely but the whole admin game people play where "winning" = no ban and "losing" = ban is silly for individuals who turn around and complain that people only play to win. Well duh they obviously play to win if they're being told that they not winning in regards to certain actions means they're barred from playing entirely lol.

Lumbermancer wrote:To stop ticking Syndie Nuke, to stop Nar Nar summoning.

But you killed someone who was a crewman/non-cult/boh bombs are devastating you should have used a smoke grenade or went in gunz a blazing enjoy your ban.

Cult also have insta TPs.

Armhulen wrote:if it improves the round i won't ban you for it

Saving the station from the round-ender but no longer being able to easily obtain minerals while syndicates or whatever are still onboard makes for an extremely interesting story (unless of course you get bwoinked to oblivion).

Xenos are practically unstoppable by design and stopping them by any means necessary is fair game but if you kill some living non xeno players then you didn't do your due diligence and should expect a smack for it

Actually if you made a rescue effort to save the last guy on lavaland but the xenos stopped you and you BoH bombed right before death that'd make for a fucking awesome story and making stories is what the game is all about so that'd be okay with me

Cobby wrote:But you killed someone who was a crewman/non-cult/boh bombs are devastating you should have used a smoke grenade or went in gunz a blazing enjoy your ban.

You are stopping imminent round ending failure state.

There was a discrepancy in that thread I noticed where the banning admin said the xenos were no where near the mining base and the player said theyd infested it

We let security kill or brig people wantonly during rev/cult so I don't see why one person who got missed when they boh'd lavaland is a horrible cardinal sin

re: If there is a risk of disaster and you still take that risk in an attempt for glory, you live or die by the RNG.

is kind of silly, there is a player who used a max cap less than a second after a wizard used jaunt, and so killed like a dozen people but didn't kill the wiz. I didn't ban them, they showed no malice, there was no lack of negligence, and it feels discouraging to ban someone because they got outplayed by chance. To some extent, and when it's not abused, I also feel forgiving a player leads to a happier server.

Admins are also DM's, a spess station letting rip with a BoH to deny the lavaland base is not entirely horrible IC justification, but in an optimal and idealistic situation where admins had the patience and energy, admins could also have done any number of lower impact IC DM'ing to rescue that one player and maybe even create a memorable experience for the player out of it. Obviously we're not here to babysit all player mistakes and consequences but we have the power to make these moments happen.

weeds and eggs on the base could have meant both, nilons

imblyings wrote:weeds and eggs on the base could have meant both, nilons

Didnt think of that, yeah you right

an old admin trap, that one

Cobby wrote:Saving the station from the round-ender but no longer being able to easily obtain minerals while syndicates or whatever are still onboard makes for an extremely interesting story (unless of course you get bwoinked to oblivion).

Be realistic here, no mining was ever going to get done anyway with lavaland overrun by xenos. It was a net gain in safety no matter what happened down there.

We argued about this forever in adminbus forever so there probably wont be much appetite for doing so here but I disagree with the ban and lots of the posts supporting it (such as "xenos were halfway across lavaland") rub me the wrong way because its not information the player had or could safely obtain.

Not much point in command roles if they arent empowered to make decisions like that.

Stickymayhem wrote:I think the consequences are the point. It's always been the case that a maxcap on a wizard will get you banned if you miss, and the same is true of boh on a bigger scale.

If there is a risk of disaster and you still take that risk in an attempt for glory, you live or die by the RNG.

If you are going to complain "I couldn't have predicted this result", then steer clear of that decision. If you play the odds and lose accept the ban.

They didnt miss in this case though, they cut off the xenos from being able to enter the station.

"If you miss its bannable griefing and if you hit then its not griefing" has always been kind of an odd rule anyway

The reason that player got banned for BoHing the mining base was because someone was stranded down there, I think

Which is really a joke, I was the AI during that round, everyone knew there was xenos on the mining base, I announced it multiple times, said person who got stranded knew what they were walking into and I'm pretty sure they were unarmed

I mean, there were RESIN WALLS on the mining shuttle, what more of a clue do you need

Also the round end report showed all the xenos as being dead and some were full "body destroyed" so I'm fairly sure the BoH bomb had the desired effect

Also anyone who says the xenos were never on the mining base is talking shit, they broke all the cameras on the mining base and totally wrecked it, and made it so mining was not going to be done for the rest of the round

Kor wrote: "If you miss its bannable griefing and if you hit then its not griefing" has always been kind of an odd rule anyway

Im pretty sure its always been a concession to the suicidal gloryhounds with megadeath weapons that if they win the round for the crew, they dont get banned for their otherwise bannable actions

Saegrimr wrote:

Cobby wrote:Saving the station from the round-ender but no longer being able to easily obtain minerals while syndicates or whatever are still onboard makes for an extremely interesting story (unless of course you get bwoinked to oblivion).

Be realistic here, no mining was ever going to get done anyway with lavaland overrun by xenos. It was a net gain in safety no matter what happened down there.

Which is cool regardless :^)

Fatal wrote:The reason that player got banned for BoHing the mining base was because someone was stranded down there, I think

Which is really a joke, I was the AI during that round, everyone knew there was xenos on the mining base, I announced it multiple times, said person who got stranded knew what they were walking into and I'm pretty sure they were unarmed

I mean, there were RESIN WALLS on the mining shuttle, what more of a clue do you need

Also the round end report showed all the xenos as being dead and some were full "body destroyed" so I'm fairly sure the BoH bomb had the desired effect

Yeah, I believe that's why they were banned.

Having the innate lack of omniscience (people can't aghost like admins) combined with the fact that you can sabotage communications to further strain your information should err on the player's side, not against them.

I understand the intent behind the ban. The guy was wronged and the admin(s) felt like retribution against his lost round was needed. That said, admins also need to realize that not every player is a shitlord. Just as the admin is trying to look out for everyone's interest oocly, the captain in particular was trying to lookout for everyone's interest ICly. The difference between the two besides the OOC/IC line is the information given to make those decisions. I'm sure if the Captain had a surefire way of checking the base without dying like the admin did as a ghost, they would have used such before condemning it to the great byond.

Yeah I'm convinced now he shouldn't have eaten a ban

Most importantly dropping a black hole into a demon world to kill aliens is cool as hell and should be encouraged.

Just to be clear, what I said is the old school "Maxcap the wizard but don't miss" way of doing things.

I kind of find it funny because it's high-stakes to have bans on the line for possibly heroic actions, and personally, it feels pretty SS13 to eat bans for trying something crazy that could have worked but didn't.

I guess logically, the only benefit is it stops people doing this stuff too often, which makes the times it does happen exciting and special.

On the other hand, by any rule of game design or sensible rules, bans for stuff that isn't intent don't make much sense, and we're moving towards being a real game or some shit which I'm fine with.

Hey you know what would be REALLY funny? If I suicide bombed the friendly wizard who is actually being pretty chill! Yeah I'll cop a ban if I miss but with a maxcap bomb I wont, plus if I win I get to hear him bitch a bit in OOC! Cry more, Lol!

This is the mentality that I hope we are trying to move as far away from as possible. Indeed, in a totally hypothetical situation where uh... Cultists! Not aliens, cultists, are just about to summon Nar-Sie and they have maybe one or two non-cultists who arnt converted yet as collateral? Weighing the options greatly, blackholing them should be the least of the worries. From an IC standpoint, the summoning of the Blood God would bring about far more destruction then one or two dumbshits who walked into the fray.

Granted, it's intent that matters here. Indeed, what matters to me more is the intent of the person throwing the Super-Destroyer. Is he doing it because oh if I get him I'll win the round or is it a calculated last risk, where the immediate death of the threat is far more important then the potential civilian casualties? We shouldn't have people throwing super-destroyers because there's just one guy with a stolen E-Gun, however if it's a team of nukies or deathies and as far as you can tell the area is vacant then I'd suggest letting loose. Needs of the many, and if one guy accidently falls in then I'm sorry but what is it we have as an automated message? Losing is part of the game and that things will often fall out of your control?

Oh and there's also the issue where someone can really effortlessly banbait victemlessly by not running the fuck away from the big ass black hole only to adminhelp "oh hey Cup Cake just BOH bombedded mee is it valid ?? ???" and under the policy of "Its only banable if you fail" the admin would have to take their side. Doesn't matter if it was a calculated risk. Doesn't matter if the BOH-bomber didn't know the area wasn't clear. Doesn't matter if the bomber, up against a potential station-destroying threat had little choice but to cut off a limb to save the proverbial patient. Ding dong bannu.

Lets not have this.

I really hope you to maxcap a friendly wizard because fuck friendly wizards.

Also for BOHing cultists. The problem with singularities is that once you get rid of whatever you wanted to banish to the black hole, it's gonna stick around and continue ripping around the station. A bomb, sure, it's one and done but singularities just kinda keep fucking things up forever unless it gets lost in space. Even then i've seen one appear back at the other side of the station half an hour later.

Saegrimr wrote:I really hope you to maxcap a friendly wizard because fuck friendly wizards.

Also for BOHing cultists. The problem with singularities is that once you get rid of whatever you wanted to banish to the black hole, it's gonna stick around and continue ripping around the station. A bomb, sure, it's one and done but singularities just kinda keep fucking things up forever unless it gets lost in space. Even then i've seen one appear back at the other side of the station half an hour later.

Nar-Sie Discriminates. Lord Singuloth does not.

I didn't want to peanutpost but if the cultists are on lavaland then it shoulden't matter much anyways. Sucks the one guy got black holed and died, but unfair deaths are part of the game.


Now if lavaland was bombed because there was only a super minor threat (one cultist, a guy with an esword or SOME TYPE OF ANTAG WHICH CAN NOT MAKE MORE OF ITSELF ) and its mostly full of friendly loyalists? Then yes, the persons likely doing it because oh boy it'd be REAL FUNNY but really in most cases lavaland being uninhabitable seems like a necessary sacrifice if need be.


Like if Bubblegum is stomping around? Better for some random crew member to die then the whole station because he snuck aboard the ship.

Stickymayhem wrote:it feels pretty SS13 to eat bans for trying something crazy that could have worked but didn't.

Being banned from the game shouldn't ever feel like a part of the game. If that's the case admins did/are doing something wrong.

Cobby wrote:

Stickymayhem wrote:it feels pretty SS13 to eat bans for trying something crazy that could have worked but didn't.

Being banned from the game shouldn't ever feel like a part of the game. If that's the case admins did/are doing something wrong.

Its not, because bans assumably stack up. I'm prob on low legs lest I play clean

The Clowns Pocket wrote:I didn't want to peanutpost but if the cultists are on lavaland then it shoulden't matter much anyways. Sucks the one guy got black holed and died, but unfair deaths are part of the game.

Yeah that much is fine, if its lavaland, at worst you're putting 3 miners out of a job they likely wouldn't be able to complete if the threat is THAT serious. BoHing on the station fucks everything though.
Bombing lavaland is also mostly a nonissue, hell the place was practically designed to be bombed with the relaxed bombcap on it (unless that got removed).
Also hardly peanutposting since this is a policy thread and not a ban appeal, i'm sure nobody gives a fuck and solid opinions are more than welcome.

Saegrimr wrote:

The Clowns Pocket wrote:I didn't want to peanutpost but if the cultists are on lavaland then it shoulden't matter much anyways. Sucks the one guy got black holed and died, but unfair deaths are part of the game.

Yeah that much is fine, if its lavaland, at worst you're putting 3 miners out of a job they likely wouldn't be able to complete if the threat is THAT serious. BoHing on the station fucks everything though.
Bombing lavaland is also mostly a nonissue, hell the place was practically designed to be bombed with the relaxed bombcap on it (unless that got removed).
Also hardly peanutposting since this is a policy thread and not a ban appeal, i'm sure nobody gives a fuck and solid opinions are more than welcome.

yeah then I'm going to call the ban shit, if there were weeds then the guy coulden't have known that there was only one alien, they kept calling for that one guy getting no response (meaning that it'd be safe to presume him dead) and xenos are not real easy to deal with. Like, at all.

Calculated risk, not done because tee hee funny, oh and I think it also got the xeno so if your simply going to go with "Its only okay if you get the antag xd xd xd" then imma slap you in the face.

Nukes are almost always OK to BoH. I personally think BoH bombing lavaland in case of xenos is fine, because there's only two "safe" ways of dealing with a decently sized xeno colony: mechs when you can corner them and a plantperson wearing a hardsuit and carrying an army of killer tomatoes. Neither are particularly easy to obtain, since mechs are hard to make when xenos are blocking off lavaland, and a good army takes a long time to make and requires botany competence. Mechs will have difficulty chasing down xenos in lavaland, and using killer tomatoes to clear out the mining outpost then leaves the problem of killer tomatoes blocking off lavaland. If you just leave the xenos alone, you're risking the chance of some chucklefuck calling them up somehow.

For other acceptable BoH, it'd have to be a stationary target that can end the round if not killed. Stationary because BoH aren't too hard to run away from, and round ending because singularities will end the round as well. BoH bombing a delta AI or gang dominator (if those ever come back) should be fine if there aren't better options. BoH bombing a Nar'sie rune is a bit iffier due to the possibility of multiple summoning locations and autocloned cultists, but if there's insufficient loyalists left, it should be fine to try a last ditch effort. Blobs could be BoH if they're nearing critical mass and there's nobody fighting it anymore, but you have to be extra careful that it isn't a mobile blob.

personally I would have teleported or otherwise assisted the stranded person and not banned anyone

I was watching that round. The entire mining base was covered in weeds they could have gotten on if a stupid latejoin had sent the shuttle. The xenos were switching between the mining base and going to fuck with the ashwalkers so at anytime the entire station could have been fucked.

Also the stranded person eventually got aten by xenos. It had been declared multiple times that the station was infested with xenos and iirc it was an assistant who had broken in and went to the planet probably looking to bring xenos back. Not to mention the mining shuttle even had weeds and resin glass on it.

Just for reference...

One time I was an ayy scientist and my partner died and there was a blob at perma.

Since a blob ruining the station meant that I was out of experiments, I decided to help a miner decked out in boss gear and teleport them on the core. He unfortunately died and nearly everyone else was dead. So, since I was now out of work since nearly everyone was dead (and me actually trying to Ayy would have lead to my death anyways since blob was still expanding), I decided to ally myself to the station (they previously let me roam around freely so we were on good terms), TP'd as close as I could to the blob, and BOH bombed it, saving the station so the remaining station personnel could evacuate safely.

I mean personally that was a cool af experience and, even though I was probably given leeway since I was a partial-antag (+ an admin), I still wouldn't think about banning players who create similar situations.

At the very least I think headmins should come up with a rough guideline players can use to determine when it would be ok to boh bomb. Obviously I'm not expecting "you can not boh bomb if someone steals your KA", but something along the lines of "taking drastic action such as releasing the boh bombing is typically allowed for situations where the station would be completely destroyed anyways (narsie summon, nuclear detonation, etc.) and the intention of doing such it to curb the impending doom. Otherwise, it is recommended you ask the current administrators if your reasoning is acceptable.", just so admins/players have something to reference when making a good-intentioned decision since it seems there's a divide here.

oranges wrote:personally I would have teleported or otherwise assisted the stranded person and not banned anyone

Failing to save them, I would have just sent them to lobby and told them to use a new char if they wanted.

They may have actually wanted to watch the lavaland carnage instead lol.

Cobby wrote:

oranges wrote:personally I would have teleported or otherwise assisted the stranded person and not banned anyone

Failing to save them, I would have just sent them to lobby and told them to use a new char if they wanted.

They may have actually wanted to watch the lavaland carnage instead lol.

IC issue it.

Being screwed over is part of this game

Saegrimr wrote:Yeah that much is fine, if its lavaland, at worst you're putting 3 miners out of a job they likely wouldn't be able to complete if the threat is THAT serious. BoHing on the station fucks everything though.
Bombing lavaland is also mostly a nonissue, hell the place was practically designed to be bombed with the relaxed bombcap on it (unless that got removed).
Also hardly peanutposting since this is a policy thread and not a ban appeal, i'm sure nobody gives a fuck and solid opinions are more than welcome.

I don't get how this isn't the obvious point here

not that people should be allowed to bomb the mining station for absolutely no reason, but the mining station is literally on another z-level, so even if the singularity stays around forever it is not going to fuck over the main station, lavaland is about as contained a place as you can put it. it's also an area/job understood to be full of dangerous shit in general, including round ending shit (megafauna), and a place with a decent risk of getting stranded anyway because of station conditions.

it's also, in my opinion, bad, stupid and uninteresting to have things obtainable on station with zero non-antag uses, ever.

From an in-character perspective. The mining base is relatively expendable and if it's infested by xenos (or a similar station-ending threat) which one ignorant late-arriving miner can easily give a free ride to the actual station, I feel it's perfectly reasonable to destroy the whole thing and prepare to establish a new mining station elsewhere on the planet.

As a miner main, I can tell you that if xenos over run the mining base, nuke it from fucking orbit. Since we lack nukes, the Singularity is a viable alternative. A xenohive in full swing is a round ending event, and I would rather see lavaland getting fucked over instead of the station. One stranded miner isn't even tragic. They should have had a jaunter for emergency return to base. It fits in a box, so saying there's not enough space to carry it is bullshit.

The AI xenos aren't an issue to me. It's when players get control of them that anything goes in exterminating them before they get to the ship.

RandomMarine wrote:From an in-character perspective. The mining base is relatively expendable and if it's infested by xenos (or a similar station-ending threat) which one ignorant late-arriving miner can easily give a free ride to the actual station, I feel it's perfectly reasonable to destroy the whole thing and prepare to establish a new mining station elsewhere on the planet.

This is why we need orbital mining lasers.

As for topic, personally I feel if inaction would result in the loss of the station/crew regardless, then BoH's should be acceptable. If a clarification rule needs to be stated, Nuke codes being requested and given should across the board permission for non-antags to do anything in their power to end the round, be it arm the nuke, unleash the engine or BoH one into existence. Specifically, again Xenos, Blobs, and cults (both variey.) BoHing nukes seems like it should be Nuke victory as the station being destroyed is their goal,whether it was a nuke or implosion from crew actions.

But yeah the whole 'bomb the wizard and kill him = no ban, bomb the wizard and miss or kill someone else = ban' rule needs to go, either ban all use of bombs against wizards (of a certain size) or allow it, don't hinge the ruling on the aftermath. A player should know if an action would result in them being banned before taking such an action, not a case-by-case ruling afterwords.

Don't we have a rule reminding players that sometimes you're going to die and often you can't control the situation. That's a big part of SS13. The dude who got stranded was just unlucky. You die a lot of random unlucky deaths in this game


This was a player in a position of authority acting in good faith to try to protect the station from a massive threat. They weren't valid hunting a lone antagonist with a bomb or boh. They didn't unleash a singularity on the station and eradicate it to take antags with them. They destroyed a non-essential mining base, accepting the risk of minor casualties because it sounds like most people had either died or escaped lavaland, in order to protect the station at large. Isn't that the Captain's job? If he blew up medbay to kill an alien it would be a lot different. I think he acted in pretty good judgement and chose a solution to resolve the alien threat with the least risk to the station and the lives of the crew.

this ban was undeserved and the fact that this was denied because "lavaland took damage and 1 guy was stranded" is laughable

Hey OP, didn't read the thread.

Answer is "when it would be funny."

Cheers.