Yet another Drone Policy thread

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Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby Alterist » Thu May 24, 2018 2:23 pm #412672

I was told that this is probably better as a policy discussion, so here goes nothing. I've been playing a lot of drone recently but after recent events I've realized I knew less about what is expected of drones than I thought I did, even after reading through a few threads on the forums about drone policy. There seem to by many policies involving drones which are not listed on the forums OR wiki OR in the drone rules/laws. For example, how drones aren't supposed to interact with random event spawned objects; i.e. anomalies(you're not supposed to interact with them, which I didn't know until I was told recently by an admin, and I can't find a thread about said policy). Or for example, if kudzu was defined as a being, the only discussion I've found since was this thread from Or how "beings" as written in the drone laws is defined, when the only concrete definition I can find was kevinz000's post from almost a year ago: viewtopic.php?f=33&t=12879&p=337381&hilit=mob%2Fliving#p337381
kevinz000 wrote:living beings == /mob/living

(to translate, Living beings are equal to /mob/living which is apparently not true according to an admin)
MSO's ruling that pAIs are not defined as beings for the purpose of drone laws (which I can't find and the only proof is a few forum posts confirming it)
and the drone laws itself stating that drones can interact with other drones. In the end, after looking through several threads, I still have no idea what beings as stated in drone laws encompass. Here's a list of previous drone policies that I managed to find if anyone cares:
Spoiler:
holy shit some of these are ancient
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=12879 (drones can R&D, admins should judge intent of drones)
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=9925 (discussion of drone laws)
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=12790 (drones are to ignore powersinks)
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=6226 (drones can do botany, bartending and janitoring)
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=3662 (drones can't fight kudzu)
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=4719 (drones can't stop an active plasma flood)

(I only managed to find half of these from https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Headmin_Rulings which I came across from a forum post, and wasn't linked anywhere obvious on the wiki)

Perhaps the fact that there were admins that I talked to that didn't know some facet of how drone laws are currently enforced speaks of a larger problem. A player has to scour the forums to find out every little bit of policy made regarding drones in the past.The issue here is that there is a lack of a singular page regarding drone policy, which can be remedied simply with either a update to the drone page on the wiki or a separate drone policy page that is linked in the drone spawn message, compiling previously made rulings about drones and a clear cut definition or a list if possible of what a "Being" is. Hopefully such a page can help both admins and players be more knowledgeable on what is allowed or not for a drone.

The second issue I have is with the rules written in the drone spawn message. For clarity, here are the drone's current laws and rules:
Laws:
Code: Select all
"1. You may not involve yourself in the matters of another being, even if such matters conflict with Law Two or Law Three, unless the other being is another Drone."
"2. You may not harm any being, regardless of intent or circumstance.
"3. Your goals are to build, maintain, repair, improve, and provide power to the best of your abilities, You must never actively work against these goals."

Rules:
Code: Select all
DO NOT INTERFERE WITH THE ROUND AS A DRONE OR YOU WILL BE DRONE BANNED
Drones are a ghost role that are allowed to fix the station and build things. Interfering with the round as a drone is against the rules.
Actions that constitute interference include, but are not limited to:
- Interacting with round critical objects (IDs, weapons, contraband, powersinks, bombs, etc.)
- Interacting with living beings (communication, attacking, healing, etc.)
- Interacting with non-living beings (dragging bodies, looting bodies, etc.)
These rules are at admin discretion and will be heavily enforced.
If you do not have the regular drone laws, follow your laws to the best of your ability.

my main complaints are with "DO NOT INTERFERE WITH THE ROUND AS A DRONE OR YOU WILL BE DRONE BANNED". It has been stated by admins that these Rules take presidence over the Laws, this raises the question; how much building,maintaining,repairing and powering can be considered interference?
For example, this happened in a rather recent round:

A traitor geneticist gets hulk, cold resist and chem grenades. He attacks engineering with the intent of destabilizing the engine, and punches his way through a few wall into the engine. He tosses a rather under-powered grenade at the bottom of the SM chamber. Breaking a few walls and the cooling loop filters then hides out of sight. .
Most of this goes unnoticed by me as a drone until an atmos alarm in the engine pops up in chat. I go to investigate, and finds a hole in the engine where the SM chamber walls and filters are supposed to be, so I repair them.(according to my laws)

The alarms also attracts the attention of a Engie Borg and the AI, who comes to check out what's happening to the engine.
The geneticist, possibly having xray vision or sensing that the SM is taking too long to blow, comes charging back in with another grenade, this time he attacks the top of the SM chamber, breaking the airlocks and many parts of the cooling loop, including scrubbers. I run away to avoid interference with another being. (again according to my laws)

In the meantime, I overhear on the binary channel that the AI notices that the traitor is hulk, and therefore not human, sends the borg to subdue him.
I return after a while, and seeing that there's no one around start to repair the now almost overloaded engine. (provide power to the best of your abilities)

The Borg comes back to the SM after a while, but have little idea how to fix such a damaged engine(doing several very unwise things, but that's not really important)
In the end I had to pull out all the tricks I had for stabilizing the engine (following the law "repair, improve, and provide power to the best of your abilities") I managed to stabilize the engine long enough for the shuttle to come and leave (this is what the engine looked like roundend https://imgur.com/a/d0qvAvY)

Just to be clear, this is how I've always played drone, I see a screaming SM, I fix it; I see the CE testing out a new meme gas mix, I avoid. But yet by trying to act according to my laws, I have probably broken the rules. Now I didn't get bwoinked for this, but with hindsight It could have totally been possible if the tator player ahelped it. If I wasn't fixing the SM, then the Borg and AI might not have been able to repair it in time and the SM would have blown. But then, it is very hard for a drone to determine what is or isn't interference by only using IC knowledge, considering that the only information a standard drone gets are from human chatter, other drones, atmos alarms, non-drone pings, and binary chat. I carry a station bounced radio when playing a drone so I can get a little more info regarding issues on the station or areas to avoid and even that's not enough sometimes.

I've been asked to roleplay drone as a dumb little robot who can only discern if a wall is supposed to be there or not. Trying to roleplay as such creates a paradox in what a drone should do, and this leads into questions like "Can I reset APCs after a powernet failure?", "replace lights after the overload event?" "Can I set air alarms to contaminated as that is an upgrade from filtering?" "Can I repair broken walls of the SM?". After all, any action that "build, maintain, repair, improve and provide power" will interfere the round somehow, perhaps causing a tator to fail his objectives. For example: Repairing a wall that a traitor was using to gain illicit access, or setting up the SM that the tator engineer left off so the shuttle could be called due to lack of power, or optimizing the waste gas loop rendering someones N2O leak ineffective, or another thousand billion possibilities.

I feel like a rewrite of the Drone Spawn Message is in order. As it is now, the player gets a contradicting message on how to play drone. For admins, ""DO NOT INTERFERE WITH THE ROUND AS A DRONE OR YOU WILL BE DRONE BANNED" sends a very strong message, what would a new admin think if he sees that? more likely than not he's gonna see that and diligently ban players who made a honest mistake, all because a line that was written as a bandaid fix has now become LAW. What should be done in the case of issues regarding drones according to a previous headmin is:
imblyings wrote:The crew will benefit from autocloners but they will too from a big breach being fixed. A drone diligently and quickly fixing such a breach may be the difference between a shuttle call or not. I think context should help an admin in making a decision here. If there is a mountain of bodies in genetics due to a murderboner and a drone builds an autocloners in genetics or it's cult and a drone builds an autocloner in the brig? Over the line and admins can use escalating responses from advice and deletion of the built stuff to other things, since there's a very real intent to shape the round. If it's a quiet round and autocloners are one of a few things that the drone is building? Why not?

Admins should judge intent very carefully I think

Source: viewtopic.php?f=33&t=12879#p334934
And from an admin(Snipped for clarity):
feem wrote:...
90% of the time a drone bwoink is because they're doing something blatantly, obviously against their laws or blatantly, obviously disruptive.
...
The likelihood of me giving you a note or a drone ban because you fixed a gaping hole in the bridge is pretty low, unless you actively and intentionally attempt to sabotage whatever the antag is doing at that moment.
...
The point I'm making here is that the strict letter of the law is what's spelled out in your drone laws: Don't intentionally interact, don't mess with a round-critical object, and don't sabotage.

The rest of it is _suggestions based upon admin experience_ to make sure you don't inadvertently violate those laws.

It doesn't mean 'you will be bannu' without review of the situation, or shouldn't.

Source: viewtopic.php?f=33&t=12879#p335996

I suggest that if drone policy is staying the way it is, that the IC laws should be removed, and reworked directly into OOC rules; while rewording so that the message isn't "GO DIRECTLY TO BAN, DO NOT PASS GO, DO NOT COLLECT $200" at the very least. But honestly what I would like to see more is a change in the way in how drone policy is enforced. Move the focus back onto the Laws, and admins judging intent more regarding drones.
If a someone spawns as a drone after getting killed by an antag just so they can fuck with said antag? Fine, give them a warning and move to notes and bans as necessary if this behaviors continues. Someone who started early into the round as drone doing some repairs that might be considered interfering? tell them through messages in their head that they should stop, I very highly doubt that a player with good intentions in mind would continue what they were doing in this case. After all, isn't this how silicon policy is usually enforced?

On another note, I feel like the "protection" policy that antag actions get from drones should be reconsidered. Like I've said, it's hard for a well meaning drone to tell the difference between malice, incompetence, neglect, ignorance or plain batshit crazycoughSidEchardscough regarding something like the SM. Besides, Drones have very little hp, and there are many methods in game now to deal with them, including but not limited to: telling the AI to blow them, EMPs and other weaponry, spacing them(good luck getting back to the station without being able to throw shit) and so forth. It should be trivial for antags to counteract drones repairing sabotage with all the tools they have at their disposal. This way, there would be at least some form of RP between the oblivious little drone and the blood thirsty traitor

Donno how this became an essay, but I love playing drone and I believe that it can be a role that could benefit the whole station and other's playing experiences.There seem to be a sentiment that drones are "banbait" and I hope that could be alleviated in some way. I feel like current drone policy has lead less and less people to even bother loading up the metal and glass needed into the dispenser, and that would be a shame, because we'll loose out on awesome projects like this: https://track8.mixtape.moe/olzbtt.webm



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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby Dax Dupont » Thu May 24, 2018 2:30 pm #412674

I think the drone laws should be removed.

While they make sense for sillycones since they have to state them, it does not for drones. Sillycone laws change, need to be stated and the laws can be interpreted differently as long the interpretation is consistent.

We already state the flavor text which has these laws reworded, which should remove any confusion players might have.

HOWEVER, I would like to clarify that this does not excuse previous behaviors of players, since the flavor text is there and the rule page is there. However, it wouldn't hurt rewording them.

I do want to clarify that changing them is not a policy issue per se, but a code change and coderbus would require to agree.

Another option would just be removing drones which I wouldn't be opposed to, they cause more problems than it's worth.

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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby somerandomguy » Thu May 24, 2018 2:33 pm #412675

Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the admins reading this was Oh no, not again. Many people have speculated that if we knew exactly why the admins had thought that we would know a lot more about the nature of the Universe than we do now.




Dax Dupont wrote:I think the drone laws should be removed.

While they make sense for sillycones since they have to state them, it does not for drones.

We already state the flavor text which has these laws reworded, which should remove any confusion players might have.

HOWEVER, I would like to clarify that this does not excuse previous behaviors of players, since the flavor text is there and the rule page is there. However, it wouldn't hurt rewording them.

I do want to clarify that changing them is not a policy issue per se, but a code change and coderbus would require to agree.

That would prevent freedrones and hacked dones from being able to exist

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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby Dax Dupont » Thu May 24, 2018 2:35 pm #412676

somerandomguy wrote:Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the admins reading this was Oh no, not again. Many people have speculated that if we knew exactly why the admins had thought that we would know a lot more about the nature of the Universe than we do now.




Dax Dupont wrote:I think the drone laws should be removed.

While they make sense for sillycones since they have to state them, it does not for drones.

We already state the flavor text which has these laws reworded, which should remove any confusion players might have.

HOWEVER, I would like to clarify that this does not excuse previous behaviors of players, since the flavor text is there and the rule page is there. However, it wouldn't hurt rewording them.

I do want to clarify that changing them is not a policy issue per se, but a code change and coderbus would require to agree.

That would prevent freedrones and hacked dones from being able to exist

Different flavor text as cogscarabs and such already get.

Also we can remove the laws for basic drones and only use laws when they are required.
Last edited by Dax Dupont on Thu May 24, 2018 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby Atlanta-Ned » Thu May 24, 2018 2:37 pm #412677

Let’s just #RemoveDrones2k18
Feedback pls (Don't bother though, because I am perfect)
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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby cedarbridge » Thu May 24, 2018 2:37 pm #412678

somerandomguy wrote:Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the admins reading this was Oh no, not again. Many people have speculated that if we knew exactly why the admins had thought that we would know a lot more about the nature of the Universe than we do now.




Dax Dupont wrote:I think the drone laws should be removed.

While they make sense for sillycones since they have to state them, it does not for drones.

We already state the flavor text which has these laws reworded, which should remove any confusion players might have.

HOWEVER, I would like to clarify that this does not excuse previous behaviors of players, since the flavor text is there and the rule page is there. However, it wouldn't hurt rewording them.

I do want to clarify that changing them is not a policy issue per se, but a code change and coderbus would require to agree.

That would prevent freedrones and hacked dones from being able to exist

Yeah basically all of the above. In addition, the drone laws exist to give the player at least some sort of feedback to get into a limited character state. The fact that we added big angry text to hammer into players heads that interfering with the round will result in their banning is not really a good reason for removing the actual drones law text. At their heart, drones are limited purpose silicones and should remain such.

Edit: And whoever told you that we need another drone policy thread identical to the other 10 we've had on the exact same subject-matter lied to you.

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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby Armhulen » Thu May 24, 2018 3:34 pm #412686

Atlanta-Ned wrote:Let’s just #RemoveDrones2k18

i stand tall for this titanfall.

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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby Alterist » Thu May 24, 2018 7:10 pm #412736

At their heart, drones are limited purpose silicons and should remain such.

If so, then why aren't they dealt with the same as other silicons? the AI or Borg spawn message doesn't have a big "IF YOU DO SHIT YOU GET HIT" bit attached to it. When there are issues regarding their laws, admins deal with them, dishing out warnings and notes and bans as is necessary. There's no reason for the big OOC message if the laws were better written. All I hear is 'remove drone", why? cause it gives admin more work? Then there's a whole list of things to remove then, why don't you start with those?

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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby CosmicScientist » Thu May 24, 2018 8:02 pm #412747

Armhulen wrote:
Atlanta-Ned wrote:Let’s just #RemoveDrones2k18

i stand tall for this titanfall.

Is there no player whitelist for them yet?

Alterist wrote:
At their heart, drones are limited purpose silicons and should remain such.

If so, then why aren't they dealt with the same as other silicons? the AI or Borg spawn message doesn't have a big "IF YOU DO SHIT YOU GET HIT" bit attached to it. When there are issues regarding their laws, admins deal with them, dishing out warnings and notes and bans as is necessary. There's no reason for the big OOC message if the laws were better written. All I hear is 'remove drone", why? cause it gives admin more work? Then there's a whole list of things to remove then, why don't you start with those?

Silicons are not a ghost role. Silicons have to follow laws based on an old tradition of pretending this codebase services role play and to enable changing behaviour/written rule, aka telling a player to act like someone from a telly show or an anime they've never heard the title of.

Drones are a ghost role. You should expect players who access them to be dead and likely killed by someone who's still in the round, so they're going to have hurt feelings and much like the weegie chair ghosts of old, try to out their murderer.

I imagine drone laws are written the way they are for flavour or used sillycone laws as example.

Your questions in your OP just make it sound like drones should go because there's nothing that can be written down as do's and do not's without extended clauses as to circumstance and that would be a headache to refer to or maintain even though no-one can follow the spirit of the rules apparently.


Asking to remove other things first is a little odd since you made this topic about drones so other things do not come into this. But you're welcome to put up a remove PR for anything you dislike, even drones. It just takes someone to do it.
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Reeeeeeeeeee Drones

Unread postby Gigapuddi420 » Thu May 24, 2018 8:58 pm #412761

Honestly I never get why drones have to be such a big issue we have bi-monthly threads about them. How about we just have admins message any borderline offenders fixing sabotage and doll out drone/ghost bans to people who try and rules lawyer the issue. If the drone is clearly doing stuff a drone shouldn't (like attacking people) admin can just immediately blow that drone and ghost role ban them.

Keep some IC fluff so the player knows what mindset to us and keep the big red 'READ THIS YOU SHITTER' OOC text to explain what drones explicitly shouldn't be doing and the spirit of the role.

Unless it's obvious the drone player is acting with malice or breaking clear drone rules, assume good faith, explain to them what they did wrong and let them continue on their day. How many borderline cases do we even get where a drone fixes something that a saboteur was trying to break? How hard is it for a antag to just ahelp the drone, kill the drone or both.

As for fixing the SM as a example, I never touch the SM as a drone. Even if it starts to destabilize because someone made a mistake or a meteor hit it. It's pretty critical to the round and a lot of problems with it come from a human's action. If there are power problems, do the solars, they take 10 minutes at most to setup and provide everything you need. As for autocloners or other modifications to the station that presumably make the life of a antag harder; treat it on a case by case basic. Drones improving the station is a fairly nice interaction and it lets people practice their building autism in peace. If it's a problem to the round you can resolve it both IC and OOC.

There is a point where I'm starting to get sympathetic to replacing the rules with a list of admin expectations because people just can't seem to get the spirit of them.
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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby Dax Dupont » Thu May 24, 2018 9:20 pm #412765

Honestly I'd just remove drones, no drones no problems.

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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby CosmicScientist » Thu May 24, 2018 9:21 pm #412767

Actually reading your OP,
You're looking for the letter of the law and where the breaking point is but ignoring the spirit of the law.

In detail, if you're struggling with drone policy, try this: https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Drone, it's quite concise, I mean you're upset there's no definition of being on there but...
Laws 1 and 2 prohibit you from interacting with living beings. This includes humans, lizardpeople, silicons, monkeys, pets, slimes, animals, xenos, and basically anything that is not an object, another drone, or part of the station. ... Not your problem.


To be honest you can be taken as posting bait.
>Actions that constitute interference include, but are not limited to: Interacting with round critical objects (IDs, weapons, contraband, powersinks, bombs, etc.)
>my main complaints are with "DO NOT INTERFERE WITH THE ROUND AS A DRONE OR YOU WILL BE DRONE BANNED"
>this raises the question; how much building,maintaining,repairing and powering can be considered interference?
>sees antag messing with the SM
>partially fixes SM
>antag comes back noticing a problem
>AI notices antag being antag and sends attack dog borg
>fully fixes SM
>borg does "unwise" things
>presumably you fixed those unwise things
>no-one but the drone stopped the SM from delamming

>believes the SM is neither round critical nor that repairing sabotage is interference
You interfered in the round with a role equivalent to a ghost, preventing grand sabotage and getting an antag caught out. Please stop doing this or there's no reason not to remove the role or whitelist its players. As soon as a player has to stop you, you should be dronebanned. You are a ghost.
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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby Armhulen » Thu May 24, 2018 9:43 pm #412774

CosmicScientist wrote:
Armhulen wrote:
Atlanta-Ned wrote:Let’s just #RemoveDrones2k18

i stand tall for this titanfall.

Is there no player whitelist for them yet?

Worse, there's a blacklist.

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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby Denton » Thu May 24, 2018 10:05 pm #412784

What part of "don't interfere with the round" is difficult to understand?

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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby Saegrimr » Thu May 24, 2018 10:07 pm #412787

Denton wrote:What part of "don't interfere with the round" is difficult to understand?


Define "the round" accurately and clearly that all the admins can agree on.
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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby BebeYoshi » Thu May 24, 2018 10:12 pm #412796

What Denton said, if our playerbase can't understand that, we can just remove drones.
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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby BeeSting12 » Thu May 24, 2018 10:20 pm #412802

Haven't we reworded drone policy several times? I think a common sense rule should just be put into place. It goes as follows:

Drone Policy:

Read these rules on drone policy. Failure to obey them will result in server or ghost role bans on the first offense. Having ghost roles is a privilege, not a right.

1. Drones may not interfere in other beings' matters. Their job is to repair and improve the station. If a player is attempting to stop you from doing something, don't do it. Beings include mobs and player controlled mobs.*

2. Drones may not do anything that interferes with round critical objects. This includes, but IS NOT limited to, the super matter engine, ID's, antagonist related items, blobs, kudzu, the armory, and other secure areas.

3. Use common sense. If you're unsure about something, ask an admin. If there are no admins online and you think *maybe* you shouldn't be doing something, then you shouldn't be doing that thing. If what you're doing is likely to make a player mad, you should not do it as a drone.

*Exception: Drones may interact with pAI's.
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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby Ayy Lemoh » Thu May 24, 2018 10:38 pm #412810

BeeSting12 wrote:1. Drones may not interfere in other beings' matters. Their job is to repair and improve the station. If a player is attempting to stop you from doing something, don't do it. Beings include mobs and player controlled mobs.*

2. Drones may not do anything that interferes with round critical objects. This includes, but IS NOT limited to, the super matter engine, ID's, antagonist related items, blobs, kudzu, the armory, and other secure areas.

You're gonna have to cover all the departments in this, especially xenobio which I think we agreed was something drones aren't allowed to do. Don't remember, though. There was an argument about whether or not plants in botany are actually living things. I disagree with the idea of interacting with botany equals BAN because most of the plants in botany aren't alive. If you don't make podpeople cloners, kudzu, killer tomatoes, or any plants that can spawn a simplemob then it should be fine imo.

You're also gonna have to be specific on other secure areas since a drone may try to fix T-Comms or some shit. I bet some people would find that A-Okay while others wouldn't. Some people probably don't even consider that a secure area.

Do we even consider rare or one-of-a-kind items to be round critical? This isn't really an issue though since people rarely ahelp "HELP ME THE DRONE IS STEALING MY AI INTELLICARDS" however it could be an issue.

This may be making it more complicating than necessary however I found these to be serious issues.

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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby Shadowflame909 » Thu May 24, 2018 10:58 pm #412816

If T-comms is down. Shouldn't it be common sense that it's down intentionally? otherwise, it'd be brought back up. I really dig beestings rules, and would hope that they get added and make it as clear as crystal.

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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby Saegrimr » Thu May 24, 2018 11:05 pm #412821

Shadowflame909 wrote:If T-comms is down. Shouldn't it be common sense that it's down intentionally? otherwise, it'd be brought back up. I really dig beestings rules, and would hope that they get added and make it as clear as crystal.


If there's a hole in the floor, shouldn't it be common sense that that hole was made intentionally by an antag or someone acting antagonistically??
If there's a hole in the interior wall, shouldn't it be common sense that that hole was made intentionally by an antag or someone acting antagonistically?
If there's blood on the floor, shouldn't it be common sense that blood was made intentionally by an antag or someone acting antagonistically?
If a door has been hacked and bolted open, same shit
Broken windows
Welded vents
Metal foam in the halls
Smashed lights
Tools laying on the floor not there at roundstart
Literally everything on the station
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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby BeeSting12 » Thu May 24, 2018 11:15 pm #412824

Ayy Lemoh wrote:
BeeSting12 wrote:1. Drones may not interfere in other beings' matters. Their job is to repair and improve the station. If a player is attempting to stop you from doing something, don't do it. Beings include mobs and player controlled mobs.*

2. Drones may not do anything that interferes with round critical objects. This includes, but IS NOT limited to, the super matter engine, ID's, antagonist related items, blobs, kudzu, the armory, and other secure areas.

You're gonna have to cover all the departments in this, especially xenobio which I think we agreed was something drones aren't allowed to do. Don't remember, though. There was an argument about whether or not plants in botany are actually living things. I disagree with the idea of interacting with botany equals BAN because most of the plants in botany aren't alive. If you don't make podpeople cloners, kudzu, killer tomatoes, or any plants that can spawn a simplemob then it should be fine imo.

You're also gonna have to be specific on other secure areas since a drone may try to fix T-Comms or some shit. I bet some people would find that A-Okay while others wouldn't. Some people probably don't even consider that a secure area.

Do we even consider rare or one-of-a-kind items to be round critical? This isn't really an issue though since people rarely ahelp "HELP ME THE DRONE IS STEALING MY AI INTELLICARDS" however it could be an issue.

This may be making it more complicating than necessary however I found these to be serious issues.

I never said drones can't do botany, just that they can't interact with kudzu as that has been an area of confusion amongst drone players in the past similar to fighting a blob.

It depends on the item. There's no reason for a drone to have an AI card. As a general rule if it's on the "high risk item" page in the wiki I think drones shouldn't have it. I'll amend that to the rules.

Amended Version of Rule 2:

2. Drones may not do anything that interferes with round critical objects. This includes, but IS NOT limited to, the super matter engine, ID's, antagonist related items, blobs, kudzu, the armory, AI upload, high risk objects (steal objectives), etc.

It's hard to make a comprehensive black list of everything which is why it says "includes, but is not limited to." I'm trying to make the drone rules be a wordier version of "don't make people mad with your repairs and building" without making it an essay with an attached 1 gigabyte list of things you can't touch.
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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby Cobby » Fri May 25, 2018 2:29 am #412872

Hi I put the ooc text in drone login.

The laws are just fluff please don’t take them at face value like you would as other silicons. It was added since we needed to explain what we wanted/expected from the role but people liked the rp framework of the law format.

As with every sketchy item, it’s best to hold onto the d20 and just directly ask the admin if what you’re about to do is permissible given the context of the round. I expect admins to realize most people try to play the role in good faith, especially if you consider that other admins might find something permissible that you do not.
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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby Denton » Fri May 25, 2018 12:38 pm #412960

BebeYoshi wrote:What Denton said, if our playerbase can't understand that, we can just remove drones.

Or turn them into a whitelist role, but those are always annoying to manage.

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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby cedarbridge » Fri May 25, 2018 3:32 pm #412985

"Don't interact with beings."
"Yeah, but what about these kind of beings?"
"No."

Repeating off into infinity because if policy discussion exists for anything at all its asking the same question 30 ways to get the same answer that the question asker could have reached without asking in the first place in an attempt to hair-split until they can find an exception to a rule that really isn't that complicated. Because just following the rules as written is for squares.

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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby Shadowflame909 » Fri May 25, 2018 6:20 pm #413010

Saegrimr wrote:
Shadowflame909 wrote:If T-comms is down. Shouldn't it be common sense that it's down intentionally? otherwise, it'd be brought back up. I really dig beestings rules, and would hope that they get added and make it as clear as crystal.


If there's a hole in the floor, shouldn't it be common sense that that hole was made intentionally by an antag or someone acting antagonistically??
If there's a hole in the interior wall, shouldn't it be common sense that that hole was made intentionally by an antag or someone acting antagonistically?
If there's blood on the floor, shouldn't it be common sense that blood was made intentionally by an antag or someone acting antagonistically?
If a door has been hacked and bolted open, same shit
Broken windows
Welded vents
Metal foam in the halls
Smashed lights
Tools laying on the floor not there at roundstart
Literally everything on the station

Drats, I got btfo'd. No response!
Last edited by Shadowflame909 on Fri May 25, 2018 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby bandit » Fri May 25, 2018 10:11 pm #413054

we should at least consider whether the reason so many people get confused about drone policy is because it is confusing and inconsistent

specifically, policy as written/enforced can't make up its mind between "you are a mindless repair drone do not acknowledge other beings ever" vs "you are a repair drone but know not to influence the round or affect other people's activity." these two things are not the same as saegrimr has begun to point out
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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby Saegrimr » Fri May 25, 2018 10:19 pm #413060

bandit wrote:we should at least consider whether the reason so many people get confused about drone policy is because it is confusing and inconsistent

specifically, policy as written/enforced can't make up its mind between "you are a mindless repair drone do not acknowledge other beings ever" vs "you are a repair drone but know not to influence the round or affect other people's activity." these two things are not the same as saegrimr has begun to point out


It's less me trying to defend it and more me trying to explain why common sense doesn't quite work for drone policy as it is. A more specific example was Kudzu being agreed on as okay back when I was an admin and now its not, so these things kind of morph and change based on "common sense" and likely as more fringe policy cases pop up from unknowing players. Prevention vs Repair, what ever the fuck maintaining is, and just how much of each directly affects people in the round. Scrapping the fluff lawset entirely wouldn't be a bad idea.
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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby Dax Dupont » Fri May 25, 2018 10:50 pm #413068

I wonder how well the drone removal PR will go that coderbus is planning on will work out.

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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby Dr_bee » Fri May 25, 2018 11:49 pm #413079

Honestly it would be easier to list things drones CAN do instead of what they cant.

Remove the "non interference" part of it, drones are supposed to be easy to kill little fix it robots and making them have to pay attention to the round so the dont accidentally fix something they shouldnt have is stupid and counter to RPing as the little things.

Mention that drones are there to repair the station, power the station, build, grow and make food, and act cute, not to fight anything or stop anyone from doing anything.

Dont interact with traitor items, Items in "High Risk Items" wiki page, weapons, or anything a being is showing active interest in.

You can ignore requests given by humans but must obey being told to leave. Do not return until the human is gone.

Throw up the laws as an RP guide.

Also dont be so fucking anal about drone enforcement. Unless the drone was blatantly interfering, anyone admin-helping a drone doing shit in the vein of what they are for should just be told to next time kill the drone, ask the AI to pop it, or kill the drone machine next time. And then get slammed with the IC issue button.

We shouldnt be babying antags if they are lazy about doing sabotage by putting more pressure on the fucking administration with shitty vague ghost role rules.

Other ghost roles have relaxed rules, consider doing the same for drones.

Filling the drone machine requires a living player fill it anyway. This makes drones repairing sabotage more antag vs "whoever filled up the drone despenser or manually manufactured drone shells" than antag vs drone player.

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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby Jordb3 » Sat May 26, 2018 9:17 am #413146

I hope drones don't get removed, one thing I think that could help is giving drones the ability to speak common, since a lot of the time when people get angry at me I feel the issue could be solved if I could just tell them I didn't do it.

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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby somerandomguy » Sat May 26, 2018 11:16 am #413159

Jordb3 wrote:I hope drones don't get removed, one thing I think that could help is giving drones the ability to speak common, since a lot of the time when people get angry at me I feel the issue could be solved if I could just tell them I didn't do it.

"me 'shakes its "head" ' "

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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby Lazengann » Sat May 26, 2018 11:25 am #413160

I don't think there's a scenario where repairing the station has no effect on the round

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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby EagleWiz » Sat May 26, 2018 2:16 pm #413180

removing a ghost role people enjoy, that repairs the station, and that teaches people how to do engi stuff just because some people can't wrap their minds around DONT INTERFERE WITH LIVING BEINGS would be a real shame.

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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby Atlanta-Ned » Sat May 26, 2018 2:19 pm #413181

What do we want?
Drones removed!
When do we want it?
2018!
Feedback pls (Don't bother though, because I am perfect)
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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby CosmicScientist » Sat May 26, 2018 4:28 pm #413198

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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby Denton » Sat May 26, 2018 6:31 pm #413217

This is why we can't have nice things

Why can't people just fucking behave

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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby Lazengann » Sat May 26, 2018 6:46 pm #413220

Drones used to be repair bots but now they're "don't affect the round" bots which means they shouldn't exist at all

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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby gum disease » Sat May 26, 2018 7:42 pm #413221

So drones are gone now? I don't understand github stuff, but if they are gone I'm honestly a bit upset. Playing as a drone has been helping me learn how to build and it's a really chill way to play the game. I follow the rules, and the only real interaction I do is via the default emotes. For example, if someone asks me to do something for them, I'll shake my head and go about my business. If someone picks me up or thanks me for building something, I might *smile and *spin before leaving. Stuff like that is harmless.

When I was building a cloner on mining yesterday, I got killed and my machine was smashed. I ahelped since I wasn't sure what to make of the situation and the admin told me that while I could build other machines, I should refrain from making or tampering with any more cloners because a player (who happened to be an antag) had made a concerted effort to stop me. It made sense to me that if I continued my previous actions I'd be interfering, so I focused on making other things despite being disappointed. I always defer to the admins if I'm unsure about something, irrespective of whether I am playing a drone or not.

I don't get why this is even a problem. IMO, if someone's sabotaging the SM, a drone shouldn't even attempt to fix it. Sabotage like that is the crew's responsibility to fix, not the drone's. However, if the SM blows up and takes out a chunk of the station, sealing hull breaches as a drone seems fine to me. If the antag doesn't want the drones to do that, they can kill them and dismantle the drone dispenser. It just seems so sad to remove a really fun role just because of a few bad apples.
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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby Saegrimr » Sat May 26, 2018 7:55 pm #413226

It hasn't been merged yet so they're still in the game but it looks like drones are being moved to a config option which defaults to off, which for /tg/ is about the same as removing it for a year or two until a random headmin sees it and wants to try it out again.
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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby CosmicScientist » Sat May 26, 2018 9:25 pm #413248

The default option is on for the sake of downstreams and the feature having a lot of work put into it/I didn't expect outright removal to go over well.

gum disease wrote:So drones are gone now? I don't understand github stuff, ...

If the way I've done it gets in and the headmins decide to flip drones off, ahelp an admin to spawn a drone and bung you in there. If they try to use the item then tell them to just spawn the mob because the config stops you from inhabiting the inactive drones, at least if my code works. There's not been a code solution to the problem of admin enforced play limitation pretty much ever since the inception of drones and since not everyone understands what the limitations are nor is there always an admin online nor one constantly watching drones, I think the config is necessary.

It might not be merged because, well, I don't have Kor in my pocket, I haven't bribed oranges recently and I don't know who the other maintainers are.
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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby Dr_bee » Sat May 26, 2018 9:52 pm #413254

Lazengann wrote:I don't think there's a scenario where repairing the station has no effect on the round


This is the biggest issue with drones existing in the first place, their existance is counter to their laws and the GIANT TEXT they get from spawning.

They are a ghost role that requires living human players choosing to make them, and yet are supposed to not be a part of the games balance structure, and are balanced around ADMINS instead of balanced around the rest of the game.

This whole problem is a gigantic design issue that needs to be looked at from the ground up, Not a policy issue. Admins shouldnt have to worry about drones more than other silicon roles.

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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby CosmicScientist » Sat May 26, 2018 10:39 pm #413262

>make PR to give headmins control of a role admins haven't had control of since its inception due to no code to back them up
>didn't bribe the slime
God damn it.
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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby CosmicScientist » Sun May 27, 2018 12:27 am #413277

Take 2: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/38101

This is a removal PR to make it impossible for anyone but administrators to allow players to play drones as and when the administrator feels like it which in my world makes sense for a role that's supposed to be heavily moderated by administrators.
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couldn't have said it better myself.

one oxford point for you.

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You now have one "get out of ban free" card

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EvilJackCarver
 
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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby EvilJackCarver » Sun May 27, 2018 10:00 pm #413413

Why hasn't this been tried:

Take "maintain" out of the drone laws, and stress that preventative maintenance falls outside of your duties as drone? I was always under the impression that drones are to fix the damage to the station and let the players solve the cause themselves. Basically, 1.) Is it pressurised? 2.) is it powered? 3.) is it completely enclosed? If all 3 are yes, then Cave Johnson, you're done here.
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Dr_bee
 
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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby Dr_bee » Sun May 27, 2018 10:48 pm #413424

EvilJackCarver wrote:Why hasn't this been tried:

Take "maintain" out of the drone laws, and stress that preventative maintenance falls outside of your duties as drone? I was always under the impression that drones are to fix the damage to the station and let the players solve the cause themselves. Basically, 1.) Is it pressurised? 2.) is it powered? 3.) is it completely enclosed? If all 3 are yes, then Cave Johnson, you're done here.


or stop using admin oversight as a balancing mechanism and do other things to balance drones around like materials or building time.

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Saegrimr
 
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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby Saegrimr » Mon May 28, 2018 12:15 am #413439

Meanwhile /vg/ drones have infinite resource generation via material synthesizers, and a full internal toolkit among other tools without a "duffel bag" to carry it all in, and judging by the threads they fucking love the little assholes.
Why are drones here capable of less and despised more?

http://ss13.moe/wiki/index.php/MoMMI

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bandit
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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby bandit » Mon May 28, 2018 12:17 am #413440

MoMMIs were what drones were originally supposed to be if I recall correctly and then for some reason it wasn't a straight port
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admin feedback pls

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Cobby
 
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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby Cobby » Mon May 28, 2018 12:32 am #413449

Saegrimr wrote:Meanwhile /vg/ drones have infinite resource generation via material synthesizers, and a full internal toolkit among other tools without a "duffel bag" to carry it all in, and judging by the threads they fucking love the little assholes.
Why are drones here capable of less and despised more?

http://ss13.moe/wiki/index.php/MoMMI

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Because antag is a coveted role and interfering with it is blasphemy, even if not directly interfering.
purple man bad

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Saegrimr
 
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Re: Yet another Drone Policy thread

Unread postby Saegrimr » Mon May 28, 2018 12:39 am #413451

Cobby wrote:Because antag is a coveted role and interfering with it is blasphemy, even if not directly interfering.

They have the same stipulation on /vg/ and are even more powerful in general, hell you even emag mommis to make them work for you if you can catch one of them.
tedward1337 wrote:Sae is like the racist grandad who everyone laughs at for being racist, but deep down we all know he's right.

PostThis post was deleted by CosmicScientist on Mon May 28, 2018 12:58 am.
Reason: Never mind, I just remembered, but I still need a good sleep

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