Should an involuntary polymorph make you an antag?

[CitrusGender]

Since there was a disagreement between headmins/gamemasters:

Should you be allowed to become an antag if the wizard turns you into something with the staff of change? Obviously, the current precedent is that yes it does, though some people have expressed their concerns differently.

What do you all think?

[Armhulen]

if you change this, you break my heart.

[oranges]

any polymorph shoudl make you antag

[CitrusGender]

if you change this, you break my heart.

I dunno. There was just a disagreement between admins. I don't particularly lean either way.

any polymorph shoudl make you antag

Voluntary polymorphs should not, god no.

[Lazengann]

If it didn't make antags then it'd be useless dum dums

[wubli]

it's easy to abuse as in just standing there until you get converted but i don't think it's inherently bad

[Karp]

It's already current policy and it reminds me of when summon guns wouldn't actually antag people unless I'm hallucinating, just resulted in everyone hunting the wizard with more guns. Involuntary conversion causing chaos seems like it's part of the point of the staff, unless the point is to basically make it simple for newer players to understand across both involuntary and voluntary conversion with not an antag/an antag.

Don't like any changes myself due to how messy it can get and how validhunty a transformed xeno/drake/syndiborg might be but i'm willing to change my mind.

[Shezza]

Having an item that can pump problematic pseudoantags into the round is not a good idea

[oranges]

if you change this, you break my heart.

I dunno. There was just a disagreement between admins. I don't particularly lean either way.

any polymorph shoudl make you antag

Voluntary polymorphs should not, god no.

wrong

[Karp]

if you change this, you break my heart.

I dunno. There was just a disagreement between admins. I don't particularly lean either way.

any polymorph shoudl make you antag

Voluntary polymorphs should not, god no.

wrong

We would have to remove the transform bolt from the carp or make xenobio transforms specifically not make people antags or something or else xenobiology would run around antagging themselves and then running around killing people as a drake or a syndiborg or something

[Krusvik]

I'm not sure how to approach this so we should chemically deconstruct it.

What's the ideal result of being polymorphed?

1.) What benefits the player most?

2.) What benefits the round most?

3.) What are the concerns for the player?

4.) What are the concerns for the round?

Player is the one polymorphed in this circumstance, the round contains the narrative and the antagonists.

[Gigapuddi420]

going to have to agree with the frog on this one. Current policy seems fine. I could potentially see a reason not to antag involuntary polymorph victims, but I think that would just make wizard rounds even more insufferable.

[MrStonedOne]

The way its was explained to me when I was a trialmin was that involuntary transform only antag you if its a mob that is known for aggroing humans or otherwise being hostile to humans.

The thinking behind this was just that such mobs are generally going to get attacked on first sight before its known they are under the control of a player simply because thats the trained meta, so giving such mobs a fair chance at life was reasonable, and it allows the player to decide to just RP as that mob. It was more that players seeking or asking to be changed was exempted from the above policy under common sense.

[Cobby]

If your role is inherently antagonistic (alien, slime, etc.) then as long as you did not purposefully get converted you should be free.

[Dax Dupont]

The way its was explained to me when I was a trialmin was that involuntary transform only antag you if its a mob that is known for aggroing humans or otherwise being hostile to humans.

The thinking behind this was just that such mobs are generally going to get attacked on first sight before its known they are under the control of a player simply because thats the trained meta, so giving such mobs a fair chance at life was reasonable, and it allows the player to decide to just RP as that mob. It was more that players seeking or asking to be changed was exempted from the above policy under common sense.

I like this line of thinking.

[CitrusGender]

The way its was explained to me when I was a trialmin was that involuntary transform only antag you if its a mob that is known for aggroing humans or otherwise being hostile to humans.

The thinking behind this was just that such mobs are generally going to get attacked on first sight before its known they are under the control of a player simply because thats the trained meta, so giving such mobs a fair chance at life was reasonable, and it allows the player to decide to just RP as that mob. It was more that players seeking or asking to be changed was exempted from the above policy under common sense.

That's a really interesting change, though that would technically require us to define which mobs changed by the staff of change/normal polymorphs are mobs "known for aggroing humans" (not really in the rules but just for clarity sake.) I can get behind this. Though, that kinda shafts players over even moreso when they get mobs like monkeys and stuff.

[Cobby]

It’s not meant to be fair

[Bombadil]

Mind you this was also before polymorphed mobs kept their original name.

[zaracka]

reading the reasons for the original/current(?) policy, i would like to add that sentient xenobiology mobs are virtually the same even though this policy doesn't apply to them

correct me if i'm wrong

my personal opinion is that if you don't have notes/memories, TP antag status, or in-chat flavor text, you're not an antagonist. if you get valided then whatever, rule 10. you were lucky enough to get hit with a polymorph spell instead of a death bolt. self-defense would be allowed obviously, as it is the case with sentient xeno mobs i believe.

genetics monkeys are valid when there's lings about, maybe when there's not too (possibly depends on which admin you ask). not everyone is going to be robust enough to know you're sentient. genetics monkeys aren't antags though, or are they? assume involuntary monkeyfication, not voluntary. mob escalation applies in these cases, not polymorph antag policy.

i guess polymorphing someone would be the same as killing them in this situation, if isn't treated this way already

[MrStonedOne]

A monkey can monkey, and do anything incharacter for a monkey. Randomly attacking human beans is not incharacter for a monkey.

A spider can spider, and do anything in character for a spider, randomly attacking humans is in character for a spider.

We just exempt intentional transforms because it is never good when a player can self antag.

[Cobby]

reading the reasons for the original/current(?) policy, i would like to add that sentient xenobiology mobs are virtually the same even though this policy doesn't apply to them

correct me if i'm wrong

my personal opinion is that if you don't have notes/memories, TP antag status, or in-chat flavor text, you're not an antagonist. if you get valided then whatever, rule 10. you were lucky enough to get hit with a polymorph spell instead of a death bolt. self-defense would be allowed obviously, as it is the case with sentient xeno mobs i believe.

genetics monkeys are valid when there's lings about, maybe when there's not too (possibly depends on which admin you ask). not everyone is going to be robust enough to know you're sentient. genetics monkeys aren't antags though, or are they? assume involuntary monkeyfication, not voluntary. mob escalation applies in these cases, not polymorph antag policy.

i guess polymorphing someone would be the same as killing them in this situation, if isn't treated this way already

sentiencing binds you to the whims of the xenobiologist, the poly staff does not bind you to anything.

There's only admin discretion on the matter so you're not wrong in how you view the situation, but I don't think the SoC is worth anything if the only thing to do with the newfound powers is hunt the wizard.

[oranges]

The way its was explained to me when I was a trialmin was that involuntary transform only antag you if its a mob that is known for aggroing humans or otherwise being hostile to humans.

The thinking behind this was just that such mobs are generally going to get attacked on first sight before its known they are under the control of a player simply because thats the trained meta, so giving such mobs a fair chance at life was reasonable, and it allows the player to decide to just RP as that mob. It was more that players seeking or asking to be changed was exempted from the above policy under common sense.

That's a really interesting change, though that would technically require us to define which mobs changed by the staff of change/normal polymorphs are mobs "known for aggroing humans" (not really in the rules but just for clarity sake.) I can get behind this. Though, that kinda shafts players over even moreso when they get mobs like monkeys and stuff.

I see the headadmins are still trying to define everything down to the last letter

[PKPenguin321]

Use common sense, seriously

[Armhulen]

Use common sense, seriously

should be the rule

[Nilons]

Its been established the average player doesn't have a headmins common sense already

[Armhulen]

Its been established the average player doesn't have a headmins common sense already

the idea is that as long as people play in good faith you don't need to look at the rules page, that's what i'm hoping for

[bandit]

The way its was explained to me when I was a trialmin was that involuntary transform only antag you if its a mob that is known for aggroing humans or otherwise being hostile to humans.

The thinking behind this was just that such mobs are generally going to get attacked on first sight before its known they are under the control of a player simply because thats the trained meta, so giving such mobs a fair chance at life was reasonable, and it allows the player to decide to just RP as that mob. It was more that players seeking or asking to be changed was exempted from the above policy under common sense.

this is basically how it works and has always worked, plus the added caveat that if you beg people to polymorph you just so you can go on an antag killing spree, then you get your shit slapped

[Not-Dorsidarf]

yeah MSO has the right idea, players should never be forced through no fault of their own into a situation where they're valid for the entire crew but cant fight back

[MaximumOverlizard]

Bans for people who ask to be polymorphed into Syndicate Cyborgs then follow their laws because "They're my laws lol" when?

[somerandomguy]

Bans for people who ask to be polymorphed into Syndicate Cyborgs then follow their laws because "They're my laws lol" when?

Poly'd borgs don't get any laws.

[zaracka]

the point I'm making is that there are other situations where you have to deal with being a non-antagonist that's valid, so it's not actually that much of an issue in my eyes. however, RPing as whatever mob is an interesting approach, but this doesn't make much sense because polymorphed players can speak Galactic Common and keep their human names. it seems it would make more sense RP-wise, if you're just your old character stuck in a new body

whether SoC should be making antags for the sake of antags isn't a terrible conversation, my opinion is that it shouldn't though

[Archie700]

At the very least, involuntary polymorphs should be able to attack the polymorpher and defend themselves against people who attack it.
...although that's not really helpful when you're a xeno or a spider.

[EagleWiz]

What causes involuntary polymorphs?

1: A wizard - the antag chosen for the round, using a staff he spent spell points on. This should probably let you attack the crew, otherwise it becomes one of the worst wizard spell point options, especially after the free drone (or xenomorph) he created decides to hunt him down.

2: A sentient carp being an idiot. Ok, realistically this shouldn't let you be an antag, and should result in a ghost ban or at least a bwoinking for the sentient carp or whoever created him.

3: An evil xenobiologist with a carp minion or that turns people into slimes- This is a way to antag that isnt flooding the station with hostile mobs, and isn't used very often. It should at least work well.

[zaracka]

definitely, it's the same as killing you in my opinion. if it was an accident, admins can treat it as such and ignore it or whatever. at the very least, it's "wronging" you to a high degree. mob escalation is a thing, I think. more relaxed than normal escalation 'cause not everyone is going to know you're sentient right away or maybe you're straight up valid, whatever... more fun that way, instead of you're an antag, kill everyone

tldr yeah you can still defend yourself

there's nothing stopping antags from hunting the wizard anyway. also, i don't think i've ever seen someone see their coworker turn into whatever and immediately opt to kill them. from my experience, most people see your human name and hear you talking normally so they figure you're not an antagonist and just polymorphed. all this does currently is allow people who know about the rule to murderbone. in the rare case that you're attacked unprovoked, fight back

if we want people killing polymorphed players on sight and basically turning wizard rounds into an even bigger deathmatch than it already is if there's survivalists, then whatever, keep the rule. i honestly don't see what's so enticing about being a xeno without a queen, syndiborg without nuke ops, or a slime killing everyone in sight... unless the whole point is for the crew to drop what they're doing and fight these new antags?

i'm starting to think this rule is to prevent all the ahelps that'll happen when polymorphed players defend themselves. anyway, if this rule sticks, someone should add flavor text similar to zombie reanimation that lets you know about it with a "if you got changed voluntarily, you're not an antagonist" clause to make the rule more obvious