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Chaplain's "pre-watering" the station
Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:09 am
by Arianya
This came up during a recent round, and while I was inclined one way, a GameMaster told me to make a policy thread rather then rule on it on the spot.
The issue: Chaplain arrives on the station, blesses a water tank, goes around blessing the station "just in case" of cult/wizard/revenants.
My feeling on the matter is that this is like replacing the air loop at the start of the round so that you can't put plasma into the air, or moving the armory at round start "just in case". Doubly bad is that holy water spreading last indefinitely, so this isn't even a precaution that you would have to refresh. It's anti-fun for the revenant especially, but also any wizard with Ethereal Jaunt.
The counterpoint that some brought up is that it's part of the chaplain's job to "bless the station", but this feels to me like a weak argument considering the gameplay ramifications of doing it, and the fact that it's a braindead decision if it's allowed. Why wouldn't you water the whole station at roundstart if it was allowed? There's no downside, only upside. It's not even using a limited supply since the chaplain produces functionally infinite holy water.
Anyway, debate away, and if headmin(s) could give their view it'd be appreciated.
Re: Chaplain's "pre-watering" the station
Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:11 am
by DemonFiren
so long as you're still allowed to make your chapel holy ground
Re: Chaplain's "pre-watering" the station
Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:12 am
by Arianya
DemonFiren wrote:so long as you're still allowed to make your chapel holy ground
My inclination was that yes, it's fine to water your chapel/chaplain office
Re: Chaplain's "pre-watering" the station
Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:28 am
by PKPenguin321
I think it's fine, if only because it will so rarely actually be done and then in the same round actually take effect on the off chance that there is a wizard who takes jaunt. Not much actual harm being done by it.
Re: Chaplain's "pre-watering" the station
Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:48 am
by oranges
fuck revenants I'm all for it
Re: Chaplain's "pre-watering" the station
Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:51 pm
by imblyings
Wizards can choose to buy a scrying orb or plan ahead with many different other tactics. AIs being cucked if atmos tinkers with pipes is a bit unfair as its only because AIs have borgs, atmos, and occasional reliable traitor allies and nearly no other strategies.
Re: Chaplain's "pre-watering" the station
Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:11 pm
by pubby
The atmos thing is banned because there's no IC or roleplay justification for doing so. There's no reason for an atmos tech to purposefully cripple their department outside of meta reasons.
But to say the chaplain isn't supposed to bless things?... Yeah. I don't get this.
Why wouldn't you water the whole station at roundstart if it was allowed?
its really fucking boring and that alone means its rarely going to happen
also most jobs can screw over antags if they try
also antags don't deserve shit
Re: Chaplain's "pre-watering" the station
Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:24 pm
by Davidchan
It's literally the Chaplain's fucking job, isn't it? It's one thing if they are going around blessing every water tank and pushing stockpiles of it to security just incase, but going about blessing various public areas or departments that let them in willingly is something that Chaplains should be doing to kill time.
I admittedly don't play Chaplain much, but forbidding them from performing one of their primary functions seems equivalent to forbidding a chemist from making specific medicines until medical encounters such condition that would need it, like not making SR till a corpse that can't be defibbed gets dropped on their morgue slabs.
Just ensure antags or what have you that are blocked or inhibited by blessing an area have a means to defile it or even desecrate it so Chaplain can't enter the area without taking damage/stuns, and/or make blessed areas revert back to normal after some time (say, 10 to 15 minutes?)
TL;DR This doesn't seem to be a policy problem but a mechanics/balance problem.
Re: Chaplain's "pre-watering" the station
Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:40 pm
by Dax Dupont
Also it takes a lot of effort to bless everything vs unwrenching one pipe.
Constantly refilling the extinguisher is a pain, even when dragging a water tank.
Re: Chaplain's "pre-watering" the station
Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:39 pm
by Lazengann
The reason it should be allowed is because it's so fucking boring that anyone who bothers doing it might as well be rewarded
Re: Chaplain's "pre-watering" the station
Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:05 pm
by Saegrimr
The trick to sabotaging AI floods as atmos is to make your pipe jungle gym still function the same but so arcane looking the AI thinks you're summoning Ratvar's distant cousin, Piperoth
Re: Chaplain's "pre-watering" the station
Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:17 pm
by iamgoofball
Saegrimr wrote:The trick to sabotaging AI floods as atmos is to make your pipe jungle gym still function the same but so arcane looking the AI thinks you're summoning Ratvar's distant cousin, Piperoth
wrong thread nerd but you're right
Re: Chaplain's "pre-watering" the station
Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:16 pm
by somerandomguy
imblyings wrote:Wizards can choose to buy a scrying orb or plan ahead with many different other tactics. AIs being cucked if atmos tinkers with pipes is a bit unfair as its only because AIs have borgs, atmos, and occasional reliable traitor allies and nearly no other strategies.
They also get advanced cam consoles for free
Re: Chaplain's "pre-watering" the station
Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:19 pm
by iksyp
chaplain's job is to keep the station blessed how is this an issue
Re: Chaplain's "pre-watering" the station
Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:03 pm
by Grazyn
One of the most treasured memories of my childhood is when the local priest used to come to our home to bless it with his little holy water sprayer. It always made me feel warm and protected, and having the chance to relive this moment through the game is the reason I love tgstation.
Re: Chaplain's "pre-watering" the station
Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:13 pm
by Jzoid
In my (unpopular) opinion, it's in the same vain as the HoS forcefully implanting everyone round start. Sure, the implanting is worse, but the concept and principles remain the same. It's technically their job to ensure crime is kept low and to counter enemies of Nanotrasen (IE dealing with revs, nukies, cults, etc) and doing so assists this, but it's still power-gamey and a dick move.
Re: Chaplain's "pre-watering" the station
Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:36 pm
by Screemonster
the difference when security does it is that security generally do it by force
If the chaplain were to scream "SCIENCE IS CULT, THEY WON'T LET ME IN TO BLESS THEIR DEPARTMENT" and get people lynched for not enabling their powergame it'd be another matter and honestly if people started treating "not letting the chaplain into your department" as a cult-tell that's something I'd totally take advantage of as traitor chaplain
Re: Chaplain's "pre-watering" the station
Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:21 am
by Cobby
Chaplain is just a wild card, the solution is to make it not literally hard counter anything remotely spooky
Re: Chaplain's "pre-watering" the station
Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:05 am
by Durkel
>Do your job
>get banned/warned
Absolute state of tg.
It's literally the chaplains job to perform dumb tasks like this. Don't blame players, blame the coder who decided it would be a good idea to give all this functionality to one role despite being intended for rp.
Re: Chaplain's "pre-watering" the station
Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:03 am
by Davidchan
Cobby wrote:Chaplain is just a wild card, the solution is to make it not literally hard counter anything remotely spooky
Remove spooky, add more scifi.
Re: Chaplain's "pre-watering" the station
Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:47 pm
by DemonFiren
Davidchan wrote:Cobby wrote:Chaplain is just a wild card, the solution is to make it not literally hard counter anything remotely spooky
Remove spooky, add more scifi.
what about sci-fi spookies, though?
like, you know, ayys
Re: Chaplain's "pre-watering" the station
Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:20 pm
by leibniz
Durkel wrote:>Do your job
>get banned/warned
Absolute state of tg.
It's literally the chaplains job to perform dumb tasks like this. Don't blame players, blame the coder who decided it would be a good idea to give all this functionality to one role despite being intended for rp.
This.
Or just make the blessing expire after a minute so you have to use your brain if you want to redtext the antags.
Re: Chaplain's "pre-watering" the station
Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:53 pm
by Gigapuddi420
Arianya wrote:My feeling on the matter is that this is like replacing the air loop at the start of the round so that you can't put plasma into the air, or moving the armory at round start "just in case".
I would compare it to Atmos Techs going around the going around the station setting the air filters to remove plasma. It's part of their job and takes effort but might complicate things for antagonists looking to flood. The only antagonist it'll really hit is revenant, if the wizard spends twenty minutes before heading to the station only to find the place blessed in all public areas, it's their own fault. Revenant being a side antag role means the ghosts being offered the role can see the state of the station before they accept, so it seems like a bit of a specific case problem that rarely comes up. Maybe if a Chaplain player is making a point of blessing the entire station every round just to bully revs you could politely ask them to give it a break. Doesn't seem like a problem in most cases though, it's even expected of them.
Re: Chaplain's "pre-watering" the station
Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:26 pm
by Nabski
Doesn't defile remove blessings?
Re: Chaplain's "pre-watering" the station
Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:36 pm
by Cobby
Yes and if no it’s a bug
Re: Chaplain's "pre-watering" the station
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:27 am
by Dax Dupont
Nabski wrote:Doesn't defile remove blessings?
it did last time I played revenant
Re: Chaplain's "pre-watering" the station
Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:12 am
by Incomptinence
It has a visual effect and holy folk like to bless shit.
Cults are babied too much anyway.
Re: Chaplain's "pre-watering" the station
Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:37 pm
by RogueSteampunker
ITT: people try to argue that babying and holding antag's hands is a good idea.
No, just no. Revanents can counter the water, and if a wizard is suddenly shitcanned cause of it, then they need to git gud. This isn't immediately rounding up people for mass implantation, nor is it going out of your way to remove any means of plasmaflooding. It's the chaplain doing legitimate chaplain things.
Re: Chaplain's "pre-watering" the station
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:32 pm
by WarbossLincoln
Re: Chaplain's "pre-watering" the station
Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:28 am
by Ivan Issaccs
My oppinion on this changed when I saw it become an everyday occurrence for a chaplain to load a smoke machine with holy water.
Re: Chaplain's "pre-watering" the station
Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:50 pm
by Dr_bee
Ivan Issaccs wrote:My oppinion on this changed when I saw it become an everyday occurrence for a chaplain to load a smoke machine with holy water.
A chaplain using technology to make their job easier? How scandalous.
STOP BABYING ANTAGS FOR FUCKS SAKE.
The chaplain spent the time to build the damn machine in the first place, if he want to bless the station it is perfectly in line with the RP of the job, even if they dont know if there are antags or not.
Re: Chaplain's "pre-watering" the station
Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:10 am
by Nilons
I played a revenant with the whole station covered in salt from a smoke machine 5 minutes after I started doing stuff and it was fine you just need to cast defile more
this is a bad policy thread
Re: Chaplain's "pre-watering" the station
Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:40 pm
by RogueSteampunker
Nilons wrote:I played a revenant with the whole station covered in salt from a smoke machine 5 minutes after I started doing stuff and it was fine you just need to cast defile more
this is a bad policy thread
Re: Chaplain's "pre-watering" the station
Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:42 pm
by starmute
Arianya wrote:This came up during a recent round, and while I was inclined one way, a GameMaster told me to make a policy thread rather then rule on it on the spot.
The issue: Chaplain arrives on the station, blesses a water tank, goes around blessing the station "just in case" of cult/wizard/revenants.
My feeling on the matter is that this is like replacing the air loop at the start of the round so that you can't put plasma into the air, or moving the armory at round start "just in case". Doubly bad is that holy water spreading last indefinitely, so this isn't even a precaution that you would have to refresh. It's anti-fun for the revenant especially, but also any wizard with Ethereal Jaunt.
The counterpoint that some brought up is that it's part of the chaplain's job to "bless the station", but this feels to me like a weak argument considering the gameplay ramifications of doing it, and the fact that it's a braindead decision if it's allowed. Why wouldn't you water the whole station at roundstart if it was allowed? There's no downside, only upside. It's not even using a limited supply since the chaplain produces functionally infinite holy water.
Anyway, debate away, and if headmin(s) could give their view it'd be appreciated.
Just a side note. The grief ghost is meant to be a side antagonist to entertain dead players. So the major issue would be wizards and cultists. Side antagonists are usually of least concern (they are just made to spice up a round more.)