Allowing security officers into perma

[cultist-chan]

The current official rules:

Brig and Brigging Procedures

It is expected that brigging procedures, including any punishments, are not unfairly excessive or unjustifiable in nature.
Bucklecuffing for periods that go beyond removing inmate handling is excessive, unless the prisoner is deemed hostile.
Confiscated items, that are important and/or department-specific, such as engineering spacesuits, are to be returned to their department.
Where possible, permabrig sentences are to be authorized by, in order of availability: Captain/acting Captain → Head of Security → Warden.
Security reserve the right to carry out permabrig sentences, without authorization, in the case of potential significant risk or extraordinary circumstances.
Autonomous decisions from security personnel to carry out permabrig sentences do so without the protection of authorization, so it is in the best interest of those making the decision to ensure it is justifiable.


Space law states

Capital Crimes

These crimes can result in Execution, Permanent Prison Time, Permanent Labor Camp Time, or Cyborgization.
Only the Captain, HoS, and Warden can authorize a Permanent Sentence.
Only the Captain can authorize an Execution or Forced Cyborgization.

Why do regular security officers have access to perma-brig or labor camp then?

My personal thoughts: Either policy should be changed, or access should be changed. I lean towards the latter in restricting access. Feel free to comment.

[Scott]

Because gameplay.

[Incomptinence]

In case of emergency loss of security heads, or to follow their orders allowing them to deal with other issues. To protect these regions and suppress any rebellion within them.

Also nice to have extra places to put serious prisoners if the brig is damaged so you don't end up attached to Ivana Murderbabies at the hip for the transgression of catching them. An officer who can't stash prisoners is likely to kill the violent ones.

[cultist-chan]

Ya know what. Lets poll this

In case of emergency loss of security heads, or to follow their orders allowing them to deal with other issues. To protect these regions and suppress any rebellion within them.

Also nice to have extra places to put serious prisoners if the brig is damaged so you don't end up attached to Ivana Murderbabies at the hip for the transgression of catching them. An officer who can't stash prisoners is likely to kill the violent ones.

Can't you know, ask for head access if you are that low on officers? If I find I don't have space for a prisoner usually theres a couple places I can hold them, like the interogation room for one.

[UtterNewbie]

Security reserve the right to carry out permabrig sentences, without authorization, in the case of potential significant risk or extraordinary circumstances.
Autonomous decisions from security personnel to carry out permabrig sentences do so without the protection of authorization, so it is in the best interest of those making the decision to ensure it is justifiable.

If you get permabrigged and you weren't antag or a massive shit, ahelp it. Otherwise git gud and stop getting caught. Security really doesn't need even more limitations to do their job. They're already the most scrutinized department by both players and admins, while anyone else can kill you on the spot when you're caught being an antag and nobody will even bat an eye.

[paprika]

All of sec should be able to go past the double doors, including the lawyer.

However, the cells themselves should be warden-only. That's like, half of his job.

[Steelpoint]

I can think of many situations where Security has needed to access perma where the HoS/Warden were unavailable (or were the one's in trouble).

Generally you are right in that the Warden should be handling any perma sentences, but we don't live in a ideal world and we cannot account for the random factor that occurs when you play Security and the general unpredictability of a round.

There is little difference between a Security Officer putting you into perma, and the Head of Security putting you into perma. You'll likely get the same sentence either way.

[cedarbridge]

Policy (and space law if that's even important here) only requires that those perma or gulag sentences are authorized by the Captain/HoS/Warden. There's no obligation for any of those to execute the sentence personally. It would be pointlessly cumbersome to require any of them to manually place prisoners in the cells and manage them manually when HoS and Warden jobs are more about traffic control in the brig than the mechanical parts of brigging.

Also, assuming that the warden and HoS are the only ones with access to the permabrig common area or cells (for some reason) and one is attacked, it would require extra access that a normal SO doesn't have to free them and by then its too late. Perma's now armed and has more access to sec than sec does. Same goes for the gulag. Setting up gulag cards and sentences is already cumbersome and involved. Setting it so that only a couple people can even process prisoners for those locations would just make an underused feature even moreso.

[paprika]

Solution: The warden's office shouldn't be such a long walk away from the permabrig

[Kuraudo]

We don't always have a warden. I see no problem in the security officers having access to the permabrig. Not to mention that it's often the place when prisoners try to fight back and escape. The standard officers being denied the right to access that area could be critical.
In other words: Things are fine like they are.

[Incomptinence]

I would personally say allow any officer to use the gulag for any semi serious sentence like say assault and up as long as they give a reasonable points card, Maybe have recommended setting for certain crimes on the machine. Add more quality of life (arcade, plants) stuff to gulag so extra rebellious trypes can choose to scorn THE MAN and stay there like beatniks.

[leibniz]

I would personally say allow any officer to use the gulag for any semi serious sentence like say assault and up as long as they give a reasonable points card, Maybe have recommended setting for certain crimes on the machine. Add more quality of life (arcade, plants) stuff to gulag so extra rebellious trypes can choose to scorn THE MAN and stay there like beatniks.

But there are still no mining scanners in the gulag, I was told like months ago that they will be added "soon".

[Dorsidwarf]

The poll is confusing and not directly relatable to the issue at hand, and has no " I do not care" abstain.

That aside, I support the perma wing being officer access but the cells being warden only. If a warden runs in alone without telling the HOS/AI and having failed to remove the soap and gets slipped, stripped, and swirlied, then they kinda deserve to be left face down in the smallest room. The brig is your resource. Manage it.

[Incomptinence]

No scanners, ugh. The whole scanner system is crap and should be removed.

Making gulag torture so we can't put anyone in it, thanks ergo once a-bloody-gain.

[firecage]

Seriously guys? Stop trying to shit on security with useless policies/nerfs like this.

[Raven776]

I would personally say allow any officer to use the gulag for any semi serious sentence like say assault and up as long as they give a reasonable points card, Maybe have recommended setting for certain crimes on the machine. Add more quality of life (arcade, plants) stuff to gulag so extra rebellious trypes can choose to scorn THE MAN and stay there like beatniks.

The problem is very few people know how the gulag system works. Officers aren't really reliable to set the right points because the point system is a very odd thing for the gulag mining...

1000 points in mining? Five minutes.

1000 points in the gulag? 10+

[Aurx]

And how are prisoners to know if the officer got proper authorization or not?

[paprika]

Well I still think lawyers should be able to go past the double doors and at least talk to perma'd people

[miggles]

space law isnt the rules
officers can do what the rules say, or follow space law
both are allowed
it just comes down to personal preference

[lumipharon]

Having only the HoS and warden be able to access perma is just way too impractical. And that's on top the guaranteed unrobust plebs who get slipped and killed in perma, only now the sec officers will be standing at the doors with their dicks in their hands, waiting on the AI.

On metastation, there is a piece of paper/book that explains how the gulag system works.Put that on box, the gulag is great, although I think the exit room needs a locker(s) that can be keyed to prisoner ID's.

[Murazor]

This is asking for a warden or a HoS to get murdered with no backup, plus if the HoS/Warden are unavailable to perma an antag, then where do we put them?

[cedarbridge]

This is asking for a warden or a HoS to get murdered with no backup, plus if the HoS/Warden are unavailable to perma an antag, then where do we put them?

Supposedly you'd make the captain do it. Good luck with that. Personally, I've delegated the process of permaing some criminals to officers under my command as HoS/Warden because I've got my hands full processing the other criminals pouring into the brig at busy times. Cult rounds are especially busy like this. If I had to personally stuff every cultist into a cell while their holy water treatment ran its course we'd never have an efficient "non-shitcurity" brig process in these rounds because I'd be busy moving people personally to and from cells instead of directing traffic. Rev and Cult would be even more of Security's Wild Ride than it already is. The current arrangement is fine as it is now. There are already rules and procedures in place to prevent SOs from improperly permaing people already and SOs having perma access benefits everyone except the inmates that want to get that lucky disarm spam escape on a lone warden or something.

[Malkevin]

This is a proposed change for sake of making a proposed change, there is no large on going issue with officers permaing people (and if you think there is you've clearly never played back in donut brig days, where every sentence was a perma sentence)


If the officers did loose perma access what are they meant to do when the Warden gets his dumb arse slipped and quick choked, stand outside the door and lick the airlock window?

[kosmos]

All of sec should be able to go past the double doors, including the lawyer.

However, the cells themselves should be warden-only. That's like, half of his job.

I agree. HoS/Warden need backup from Officers from time to time, but don't need cell access to actually perma anyone. Lawyers should be able to talk to prisoners. Officers can keep Labor Camp access because Labor Camp is not only for permanent sentences.

[cedarbridge]

All of sec should be able to go past the double doors, including the lawyer.

However, the cells themselves should be warden-only. That's like, half of his job.

I agree. HoS/Warden need backup from Officers from time to time, but don't need cell access to actually perma anyone. Lawyers should be able to talk to prisoners. Officers can keep Labor Camp access because Labor Camp is not only for permanent sentences.

See my last post. There are many times where the warden would want to delegate or make use of perma for both permanent and non-permanent sentences. Locking SOs out of perma is solving a problem that doesn't exist.

That's something I'd like stated before more people weigh in their vague opinions about who needs what access. What is the problem that removing perma access from SOs would solve?

[paprika]

The warden being fucking useless and everyone going past him as robust mcredshirt to perma people wordlessly without ever talking to the warden/HoS unless they're directly in the room?

[Steelpoint]

The suggestion solves a problem that does not exist.

[cedarbridge]

The warden being fucking useless and everyone going past him as robust mcredshirt to perma people wordlessly without ever talking to the warden/HoS unless they're directly in the room?

What Steelpoint said. You have a shitty warden, not a problem that can or should be "fixed" with code. If the warden doesn't know who is entering and leaving his brig, or worse, his permabrig, then you've found your real problem. Frankly, I'd just start ordering officers to get perma access from the HoP if it were removed just to return basic brig control procedure to normal.

[paprika]

I thought that was standard operating procedure anyway

[cedarbridge]

I thought that was standard operating procedure anyway

We need to implement this in policy immediately.

[Malkevin]

Thats SOP for when the Brig is bombed, just like Dwarf Fortress - no jails or chains = summary beatings