/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:00 pm**

Bottom post of the previous page:

Should people be allowed to suicide right as war is declared?

I've given 4 people short war op bans for this, because I feel like it was antag rolling to try to get the ghost roll extra team operatives. In two of those four cases while I was talking to them they became an operative. This would have been a ban appeal by someone, but I applied the ban on the wrong person and didn't feel like it was worth reapplying since I had already kicked him out of the operative, so most of the punishment was already done.

Note we've had something similar to this thread before.
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=3536

Posted: **Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:36 am**

so what's wrong with the suggestion that ghosts/suicides wait 10 minutes before being eligible for ghost roles?

Posted: **Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:10 pm**

Ayy Lemoh wrote:
NikNakFlak wrote:making it so it doesn't announce the war until they take all they finish spending all their TCs or something is the way to go.
Let's assume that if the nuke ops press the button to open nuke op shuttle doors, the war announcement will pop up. That is the only good method I can think of besides BUY ONE ITEM AND IMMEDIATELY GET FUCKED or YOU HAVE TO SPEND ALL YOUR TC OR ELSE NOTHING HAPPENS LMAO UBER STEALTH WAR OPS IS THE META NOW LMAO. There is nothing else different. One could finish buying all their items, wait until they can go to the station, and then open the shutter.

You would have basically one minute to prepare assuming the nuke disk holder isn't getting fucked over by someone.

If it works in a way where the nuke ops have PLENTY of time to prepare but are forced to wait in the outpost for 15 minutes after the announcement pops up then the following possibilities occur:
A. If shuttle can't be called until war op announcement then people are going to know the peaceful round is war ops when they try to call the shuttle at 30 minutes and it won't let them.
B. If shuttle can be called then rest in peace peaceful shifts since they would probably just assume it's war ops if nothing happened by 00:30:00
C. this is the most boring and frustrating thing i can think of where it pisses off both people who want action and people who prefer calmer interactions.

This was one suggestion, of course it would have to be coded in a way that's still fair. Your dumb filthy frank reply isn't going to change the fact that there's a problem that needs addressing. Fuck your tl;dr

Posted: **Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:58 pm**

DemonFiren wrote:so what's wrong with the suggestion that ghosts/suicides wait 10 minutes before being eligible for ghost roles?

It's a solution for a problem that doesn't exist and I don't want to waste ten minutes of my life before I can have fun again

Edit: If people are willing to risk being completely unable to play just for a chance of having fun then god bless them, maybe we should make the game mode better so they don't do that

Posted: **Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:02 pm**

I usually commit suicide when ops/blob is announced not because I want to roll antag but because I'd rather observe and comment in deadchat than play those rounds

Posted: **Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:14 pm**

Blobs not even a mode anymore.

Posted: **Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:49 pm**

@Nik @Ayy

You could just have it announced on shuttle move and make the transition longer lol

Posted: **Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:10 pm**

iamgoofball wrote:a randomized 5-10 minute delay on going from death to ghost role would probably help here a lot

...this is actually a legitimately good idea I'm proud of you goof

Posted: **Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:11 pm**

Saegrimr wrote:As long as it doesn't fuck with ashwalker/golem/whatever ghost spawner menu roles exist. I unironically like to dick around on that rusted station full of hivebots when the round is shit.

Felt like restating.
Apparently /vg/ has a 5 minute wait timer to become a mommi after death too.

Posted: **Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:18 pm**

bandit wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:a randomized 5-10 minute delay on going from death to ghost role would probably help here a lot
...this is actually a legitimately good idea I'm proud of you goof

Just weighting it based on time dead would be a less painful solution for the player, sure you can suicide for antag rolls but if it is a 0.0001% chance for them to get the roll for 5 minutes after death it would naturally be discouraged.

Plus it would solve the edge case of there being no other ghosts for the random ghost roll besides the one asshole who died 2 minutes ago

Dont punish all people who play ghost roles for a freaking edge case that is suiciding for random antag status.

Posted: **Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:26 pm**

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:why do you have to kill yourself if you hate the roundtype so intensely you cant stand to exist in it? why dont you just... tab out. boot up the other server or something.

Because joining a game roundstart and being told that all your setup is being interrupted by "that one roundtype where the captain runs around and gets slaughtered, the heads fight OPs, and the AI is guranteed to be more an antag than the actual OPs", and find that the other server had already been pillaged of resources by the assistants. Suicide is the only option without just closing out of tg, since roundstart can make all the difference, and war OPs basically tosses it out the window.

Posted: **Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:29 pm**

RogueSteampunker wrote:
Not-Dorsidarf wrote:why do you have to kill yourself if you hate the roundtype so intensely you cant stand to exist in it? why dont you just... tab out. boot up the other server or something.
Because joining a game roundstart and being told that all your setup is being interrupted by "that one roundtype where the captain runs around and gets slaughtered, the heads fight OPs, and the AI is guranteed to be more an antag than the actual OPs", and find that the other server had already been pillaged of resources by the assistants. Suicide is the only option without just closing out of tg, since roundstart can make all the difference, and war OPs basically tosses it out the window.

At least with war ops you get some forward notice to not bother starting any projects unlike stealth ops or wizards that don't immediately spawn guns/events

Posted: **Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:19 am**

Fucking no. Ask to be ghosted by an admin.

Posted: **Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:49 pm**

To summarize bullshit,

Lumbermancer wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:Why is this an issue
If the game mode makes you kill yourself, that's probably an issue.

The warops group is scaled by the stations pop. One quarter or half (just a random ass number) suicides because the mode is ass, suddenly the team is skewing that fight in its favor just by declaring war. Not including them buying reinforcements/borgs. It is kind of an issue.

D&B wrote:Ghosting is the I don't want to play anymore command.

Bingo. Bet you see similar shit in blood cult, too, as working against them or fucking off can lead to cultbans.

A cooldown on being able to use spawners after dying if you are not a direct observer from the lobby menu sounds like a fine and dandy idea but that was hardly the highlight of this whole shindig.
If it hasn't been noticed yet, there's a distaste for the mode or more specifically, shit like warops. For me? They're boring. Some people would rather opt-out, including myself, than even bother going it. So when I die when that war declaration happens, it is not to try getting on their team.

I just can't be fucking arsed to care about another damn op round.

Posted: **Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:00 pm**

Gamarr wrote:To summarize bullshit,

Lumbermancer wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:Why is this an issue
If the game mode makes you kill yourself, that's probably an issue.
The warops group is scaled by the stations pop. One quarter or half (just a random ass number) suicides because the mode is ass, suddenly the team is skewing that fight in its favor just by declaring war. Not including them buying reinforcements/borgs. It is kind of an issue.

This is a common argument and the common response is that those who commit suicide are usually people who wouldn't have made a difference anyway against the ops, unless you used them as cannon meat to choke the nuke ops' guns

Posted: **Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:58 pm**

It's not as big an issue as people are making out, and it really only comes into play very early in cult and rev rounds.

Everyone arguing for any other reasons are mostly strawmanning things that don’t' matter.

Posted: **Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:56 am**

maybe the issue is the frequency of nuke ops? short rounds are nice every once and awhile, but nuke ops feels rather common, and you cant get any projects done on them or typically short round types.

Posted: **Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:28 am**

I'll just admit that on rare occasion when I've been really bored or in a murderboney mood I'd join as a greyshirt to roll for antag, and then immediately suicide to roll for ashlizard or the hopes of a quick admin-antag-spawn when I don't get antag.
Its not a regular thing, but its a thing, and I'm by no means the only player who has done this.
And the thing of it is, I can't even think of a single defense for leaving the ability to do so in the game. Its clearly just someone who already rolled for antag trying to do so again because they would rather click the spessmen until they fall down then play the game any other way, and yes I have on occasion been that asshole, but I can't defend this as a perfectly valid playstyle that should in no way be discouraged.

Posted: **Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:38 am**

We’re not going to start gutting modes or reworking them ourselves to fit the small, however vocal they may appear on theforums, minority who suicides during them.

Also every “I want to not play as that character anymore” option whether it’s suiciding or suicide-for-the-restrained (ghosting), it should be treated the same. My only issue here is people who use any method to avoid conversion so much they had to code a pity-feature for it in at least one mode.

Posted: **Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:34 pm**

Should just put it as a message if you suicide on war ops, something that says suiciding purely with the intent to get nukie ghost roles is bannable and then follow up if anyone does.

Posted: **Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:15 pm**

Cobby wrote:We’re not going to start gutting modes or reworking them ourselves to fit the small, however vocal they may appear on theforums, minority who suicides during them.

Also every “I want to not play as that character anymore” option whether it’s suiciding or suicide-for-the-restrained (ghosting), it should be treated the same. My only issue here is people who use any method to avoid conversion so much they had to code a pity-feature for it in at least one mode.

Pity feature for avoiding conversion is requesting a Cult ban like me and several other people have done. I would rather play nothing at all than that shitty mode, and asking for a ban at least frees my character up for someone who enjoys playing it.

Posted: **Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:32 pm**

Also I just checked the round chances and nuke ops has a 19% chance to roll. 1 in 5 rounds being nuke ops is a tad too much for how short and samey those rounds can be, dont you think? maybe drop 10% or so off of that and put 5% in extended and 5% in wizard or something.

Posted: **Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:56 pm**

Dr_bee wrote:Also I just checked the round chances and nuke ops has a 19% chance to roll. 1 in 5 rounds being nuke ops is a tad too much for how short and samey those rounds can be, dont you think? maybe drop 10% or so off of that and put 5% in extended and 5% in wizard or something.

Yeah, 19% feels like a bit much. I think wizard is fine at 11.9% A small bump to extended and maybe traitorchan/traitor would be a better choice in my opinion.

Posted: **Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:07 pm**

i didnt read this thread past the firs tpost

my two cents is you should always be allowed to suicide on any round type as long a syoure not blatantly rolling for antag

Posted: **Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:10 am**

Hathkar wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:Also I just checked the round chances and nuke ops has a 19% chance to roll. 1 in 5 rounds being nuke ops is a tad too much for how short and samey those rounds can be, dont you think? maybe drop 10% or so off of that and put 5% in extended and 5% in wizard or something.
Yeah, 19% feels like a bit much. I think wizard is fine at 11.9% A small bump to extended and maybe traitorchan/traitor would be a better choice in my opinion.

Traitor chan is fine where it is. Changeling op cancer should stay rare. It being too high is what gave the fanbase a huge hatred for it.

Posted: **Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:33 am**

Shadowflame909 wrote:
Hathkar wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:Also I just checked the round chances and nuke ops has a 19% chance to roll. 1 in 5 rounds being nuke ops is a tad too much for how short and samey those rounds can be, dont you think? maybe drop 10% or so off of that and put 5% in extended and 5% in wizard or something.
Yeah, 19% feels like a bit much. I think wizard is fine at 11.9% A small bump to extended and maybe traitorchan/traitor would be a better choice in my opinion.
Traitor chan is fine where it is. Changeling op cancer should stay rare. It being too high is what gave the fanbase a huge hatred for it.

Recent changes to changeling's make the hivemind changeling deathsquad a much riskier thing to do, since lings get bonuses for eating their own and even have objectives counter to each other. Consider raising the chance of traitor/ling or add ling only mode back in so we can see how these changes work out more.

As much as I hate lings, the recent changes have been a move in the right direction and I would hate to see nuke ops see a ling level of hate.

Posted: **Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:43 am**

Repeat rounds suck. But the changelings dont need to be more common. It's not fun fighting an antagonist you can't beat alone. If they're semi decent they can take out an entire sec team. The worst part is that they come in fours. So at least one person takes out your entire sec team, and you have to deal with the traitor combo that comes with them. If you're not an antag during traitor lings, you have no chance. That's all.

Posted: **Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:41 am**

Possibly outside the scope of this thread but repeat rounds suck for everything other then traitor IMO, and tweaking the RNG to make duplicate rounds less common would be a welcome change for most.

Posted: **Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:16 pm**

BeeSting12 wrote:i didnt read this thread past the firs tpost

my two cents is you should always be allowed to suicide on any round type as long a syoure not blatantly rolling for antag

Thank you for summing up the first five posts before people dove into the minutia.

Posted: **Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:50 am**

I don't see the problem with antag rolling during nuke ops if your not an important role. What is an virologist going to do during nuke ops that the 20 assistants who already looted the armory can't do better. Becoming a ghost role that way is still not guaranteed and offers up a healthy supply of ghosts for whatever plan the nuke ops have.

Nobody has explained why this is a bad thing or how it harms the game for the other players yet.

Posted: **Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:18 am**

Pizzatiger wrote:Nobody has explained why this is a bad thing or how it harms the game for the other players yet.

When you allow this sort of behavior it tends to compound. A couple of people suiciding because they don't like war ops is okay, half the station suiciding is not. Even then, nobody gets banned for suiciding in the mode occasionally IMO, especially if you don't take ghost roles afterwards.

Posted: **Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:33 am**

I don't think this is a war ops only issue though. You'll have roundstart suiciders every round if they don't get traitor. They're probably dead before the war ops even get announced.

Posted: **Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:24 pm**

Shadowflame909 wrote:You'll have roundstart suiciders every round if they don't get traitor.

completely separate issue and im pretty sure people already get banned for it if they do it too much

Posted: **Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:32 pm**

There should be a "return to lobby if not antag" option, this would reduce such suicides and allow them to go straight to observe if they don't want to play

Posted: **Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:32 pm**

Nilons wrote:
Shadowflame909 wrote:You'll have roundstart suiciders every round if they don't get traitor.
completely separate issue and im pretty sure people already get banned for it if they do it too much

Hint: It isn't, it's not actionable unless they go from sybils lobby to bagil to instantly re-roll for antag. Confirmed by several admins

Also how is this situation any different? You figure out the round type. You didnt get traitor, then you play sudoku

Posted: **Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:59 pm**

Shadowflame909 wrote:
Nilons wrote:
Shadowflame909 wrote:You'll have roundstart suiciders every round if they don't get traitor.
completely separate issue and im pretty sure people already get banned for it if they do it too much
Hint: It isn't, it's not actionable unless they go from sybils lobby to bagil to instantly re-roll for antag. Confirmed by several admins

Also how is this situation any different? You figure out the round type. You didnt get traitor, then you play sudoku

In nuke ops if they declare war you can be fairly certain there will be ghost roles right away, other gamemodes its a coin toss.

you saying it isnt actionable except for the times where it is doesn't really change the fact that it is according to policy

Posted: **Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:31 pm**

Pizzatiger wrote: Nobody has explained why this is a bad thing or how it harms the game for the other players yet.

Yes I did.
Several modes antag numbers are scaled, afaik purely, on the stations population at the start of the round. It's one of the few metrics that was used (though this could be wrong and I'd love to hear that it takes more into account but honestly doubting this). A quarter of the present crew suicides because 'lolnorantag' means that now the whole formula for the numbers are skewed entirely towards the antagonist side for said round.

So yes, them suicides matter because they joined the start, bloated the station and jacked up the changeling/traitors/op numbers, and then removed themselves from the actual mode they helped influence and create.

Posted: **Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:58 pm**

@Gamarr they’re based off station numbers and math unique to the mode

Posted: **Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:55 pm**

Grazyn wrote:There should be a "return to lobby if not antag" option, this would reduce such suicides and allow them to go straight to observe if they don't want to play

the funny thing is this actually exists and all the experienced antag rollers use it

Posted: **Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:58 pm**

subject217 wrote:
Pizzatiger wrote:Nobody has explained why this is a bad thing or how it harms the game for the other players yet.
When you allow this sort of behavior it tends to compound. A couple of people suiciding because they don't like war ops is okay, half the station suiciding is not. Even then, nobody gets banned for suiciding in the mode occasionally IMO, especially if you don't take ghost roles afterwards.

If half the station suicides because of the gamemode then it's a problem with the gamemode, not the players.

Posted: **Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:04 pm**

BeeSting12 wrote:If half the station suicides because of the gamemode then it's a problem with the gamemode, not the players.

If they're suiciding so that they can get antag ghost roles explicitly, I'd say that's a problem with the players. Otherwise, I'd agree.

/tg/Station 13

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