/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

My question is related to this ban appeal: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=18603

tl;dr player gets jobbanned for running a dangerous engine setup that, despite his precautions, caused it to explode.

Should players honestly be punished with bans for experimenting with an engine that is practically made for experimentation? Of course I don't mean players who blow up the engine every single round.

I'm going to state that I've not read every post in this thread but here's my take on it.


You can experiment with the Super Matter Engine. I do it all the time as CE. However if you are doing something that is more dangerous than the standard set up then you should take some (very easy to do) precautions.

This is an experimental, research station. You wouldn't experiment on Xenos without setting up shield projectors. If Xenos got out of containment because you did not set up adequate containment you would be the one at fault and you'd receive a bwoink, same goes for the SM. If I am experimenting with the SM I try to ensure I have a few to several canisters of supercooled N2O at the ready. I also try to upgrade the loop and install a hot gas dump before the filters (as hot gas severly slows the filtering process down and when the gas is REALLY hot the cooling loop isn't always enough to cool it prior to filtering).

You should always aim to experiment without delaminating the SM however as a non-antag. If you want to experiment delaminating save that for your antag rounds or for a private server, not here.

And if your experiment fucks up and the SM ends up delaminating because you didn't take enough precautions then just like a xenobiologist letting xenos escape you will be at fault and can expect to receive admin attention.

The above seems fair and is basically how I look at it. Keep in mind we are debating a policy only relevant in the 1% of the time when someone experiments with the SM and it goes wrong.

That is excellent phrasing, Rustled.

As long as you take reasonable precautions to prevent a delam then fine. If you really wanna cover your ass, make an admin ping that you're doing a dangerous set-up so admins will see the ticket and see that this isn't gonna be a "oh i totally accidentally blew up the engine teehee :^)))" meme

SpaceManiac wrote:The whole reason the SME is exciting is that you might have to do damage control to avoid being blown up, and then might fail. Losing is part of the game. Bwoink fear preventing experimentation would be really unfortunate.

We also ban people for trying to bomb antagonists and failing. If you aren't prepared for the consequences you shouldn't be doing something that can end in large scale destruction.

from what I understand/read in logs the ban was less for experimenting with the supermatter, which most people would encourage, and more for being semi-flippant when bwoinked about it leading the admin to believe they were griffing

It's another "quasi-ban appeal in policy discussion that is clearly unreasonable until you look at the situation" episode basically

bandit wrote:from what I understand/read in logs the ban was less for experimenting with the supermatter, which most people would encourage, and more for being semi-flippant when bwoinked about it leading the admin to believe they were griffing

It's another "quasi-ban appeal in policy discussion that is clearly unreasonable until you look at the situation" episode basically

this basically

starmute wrote:

Ayy Lemoh wrote:

starmute wrote:If you can't figure out atmos... I don't know what to say. I mean.

let me rephrase that:

I don't know how a fucking SM engine works. EDIT: ish. I know what some things are but eh.

Bonus points during a time where ALLEGEDLY the supermatter guide page on the wiki was actually false and would make you delaminate the crystal. Not sure if that was ever changed.

Better. Also I prefered singularity but thats aside from the point. Its kinda funny that a actual nuclear engine is less accident prone than the supermatter engine.

that's becaue there's no actual simulation behind it

bandit wrote:from what I understand/read in logs the ban was less for experimenting with the supermatter, which most people would encourage, and more for being semi-flippant when bwoinked about it leading the admin to believe they were griffing

It's another "quasi-ban appeal in policy discussion that is clearly unreasonable until you look at the situation" episode basically

At least it's not a ban request disguised as policy

The design of the supermatter engine and the documentation surrounding it encourages experimentation and custom setups. The entire fucking point of adding the SM engine was that the singularity and tesla engines were two-dimensional and shallow. Unless the person in question was deliberately trying to sabotage the engine, the fact that they were even bwoinked for that is fucking outrageous and disgraceful

Making it a punishable offense is practically ban-baiting via code/mechanics


Edit: And in respect to the "but people might die!" argument: Death is part of the game. Don't hang around the fucking engine if you don't want to risk dying in a delamination. If you die to a delamination and you weren't one of the people trying to fix it, it means that you were ignoring the radio warnings and/or are fucking retarded

Luke Cox wrote:The design of the supermatter engine and the documentation surrounding it encourages experimentation and custom setups. The entire fucking point of adding the SM engine was that the singularity and tesla engines were two-dimensional and shallow. Unless the person in question was deliberately trying to sabotage the engine, the fact that they were even bwoinked for that is fucking outrageous and disgraceful

Making it a punishable offense is practically ban-baiting via code/mechanics


Edit: And in respect to the "but people might die!" argument: Death is part of the game. Don't hang around the fucking engine if you don't want to risk dying in a delamination. If you die to a delamination and you weren't one of the people trying to fix it, it means that you were ignoring the radio warnings and/or are fucking retarded

Sometimes I wonder if people bother to at least know the context before posting.

This thread is closed. What I said is policy.

Sorry about the late post but I was going to post here awhile ago.

Rustledjimm wrote:

Spoiler:

I'm going to state that I've not read every post in this thread but here's my take on it.


You can experiment with the Super Matter Engine. I do it all the time as CE. However if you are doing something that is more dangerous than the standard set up then you should take some (very easy to do) precautions.

This is an experimental, research station. You wouldn't experiment on Xenos without setting up shield projectors. If Xenos got out of containment because you did not set up adequate containment you would be the one at fault and you'd receive a bwoink, same goes for the SM. If I am experimenting with the SM I try to ensure I have a few to several canisters of supercooled N2O at the ready. I also try to upgrade the loop and install a hot gas dump before the filters (as hot gas severly slows the filtering process down and when the gas is REALLY hot the cooling loop isn't always enough to cool it prior to filtering).

You should always aim to experiment without delaminating the SM however as a non-antag. If you want to experiment delaminating save that for your antag rounds or for a private server, not here.

And if your experiment fucks up and the SM ends up delaminating because you didn't take enough precautions then just like a xenobiologist letting xenos escape you will be at fault and can expect to receive admin attention.

Rustled is ultimately correct. You're allowed to experiment with the SM and, if your stuff goes sour, make sure you take the correct precautions to stop further damage. You can even be extremely incompetent but as long as you atleast make an attempt to salvage the situation, you're going to avoid a note. However, that doesn't cover people who just fuck off and do nothing as CE (though, all I could really see that netting is just a note.)

Intent is what matters here and, if anyone read the context of the situation, it looks like the intent wasn't all too virtuous.

MrAlphonzo wrote: Like I said in the appeal, he gave me the impression he was intentionally destabilizing the engine just so he could save it, for the giggles. That is not the same as experimenting with the engine to discover a more efficient way to power the station.

This is an important distinction that relates to this case.

Side note:

Nilons wrote:

Arianya wrote: I disagree with note numbers in general being used as justification, where the notes are only tangentially/not related, but I'm also not a headmin so that's not my purview.

Okay when every single admin starts doing this they wont be a punishment

no matter how much you disagree with it or dont use it as a justification other admins will

Nilons is correct, so we tread a middle ground for notes. The headmins understand that not all notes are created equally and that some notes may be peanuts while some may be really bad. This doesn't apply to all admins but just know that the reviewing authority (under the current headmin team) is aware of the difference in severity of notes. Though, we attempt to enforce a middle ground so that irrelevant and useless notes are not added on players.

We have unofficially stated (I guess officially now) that we're willing to accept appeals for notes that happened in the last 6 months.