Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

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Should we require the HoP to adhere to a code of conduct?

Poll ended at Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:26 pm

Yes, as a Head of Staff the HoP should be focused on helping the station.
47
23%
Yes, as a Head of Staff the HoP should be focused on helping the station.
47
23%
Yes, as a Head of Staff the HoP should be focused on helping the station.
47
23%
No, the HoP should be free to give out access and assign jobs however they wish.
20
10%
No, the HoP should be free to give out access and assign jobs however they wish.
20
10%
No, the HoP should be free to give out access and assign jobs however they wish.
20
10%
 
Total votes : 201

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Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Timbrewolf » Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:26 pm #40340

I started a discussion in secret adminbus subforum centered around our lax standards for behavior and job conduct for our Heads of Personnel.

It boils down to this: A HoP exercises a lot of authority over the station and can very easily throw a wrench into other departments, or give Security hordes of new trespassers to chase after. We don't currently hold them accountable for anything anyone does with the access they've been granted, nor do we require them to confer with other heads of staff before giving people access to their areas. Since I've been back I've witnessed a lot of HoP behavior I think detracts from the game, and I've seen more than enough cries in OOC of "Why isn't this guy Jobbanned?" to think something should change.

I'd like to conduct a survey of the playerbase to make sure it's a sentiment mirrored in the playerbase as well before we get too far along in talking about how we can deal with it.

A simple yes/no vote is fine. Please don't post "Oh yeah SO AND SO is a terrible asshole ban he". I don't want this to devolve into a bunch of ad hom attacks and defenses. Thank you.
Last edited by Timbrewolf on Mon Nov 03, 2014 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Ikarrus » Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:52 pm #40344

HoPs are literally the scum of the universe. If we can think of anything to help fix this, I'd be very happy.

We just have to make sure it's well-thought out.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby MrGlasses » Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:08 am #40345

Methinks that if we do this it'll be a step closer to making the server more roleplay friendly. IE: Less M-M-M-M-MUH VALIDS GAIS! I NEED MUH VALIDS!

I'm for this.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Arete » Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:38 am #40352

Actually helping the station as HoP is harder than it sounds. As you're trying to help each person, you've got multiple other people waiting in line behind them and getting unruly if you take too long. Meanwhile, you have to judge whether the head of staff that's taking way too long to answer your question about letting someone join his department is busy, braindead, or just negligent. Then even after that's resolved you've got to deal with being the second-in-command on a server where people have negative regard for authority and are perfectly happy to risk death or permabrigging just to fuck with you because they've got nothing better to do.

As things stand, playing HoP is a huge thankless chore. Its only redeeming factor is the freedom it allows when you roll traitor, and that's not a perk that's going to attract helpfully-minded people. If you're going to impose some higher standards on non-traitor HoPs, then you should probably think of some way to add some fun to the job for non-traitor HoPs too, or else the spot will probably end up unfilled more often and make life even harder for the rest of the command staff.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby cedarbridge » Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:43 am #40354

At present, a HoP with an active captain has no responsibilities that aren't "not die to revs." This leads to things like HoPcurity. The nebulous "usually replacement captain because they have nothing better to do" position as well, most HoPs treat it as "I'm second in command so other heads of staff can blow me." This leads to newcomers to departments with access and job titles but without actual authorization. If we're just listing shitty things HoPs have done (assuming non-antag situations):

-Assigned greys to departments without aurhorization from the HoD
-Refused to properly assign greys to departments without "signed" permission forms with stamps etc etc etc
-Opened all the clown slots forever
-Gave themself all-access and immediately closed the HoP line window
-Rubbernecked through departments without proper reason to be there
-Functioned as a second QM while an active one was already present
-Let themself into the armory/seclockers fnr

These are all things that need to be looked at and probably controlled in some way. That said, doing so is kinda tough anyway since HoP isn't a protected job. Antag HoPs can and probably should be doing most of these things. Making it a rule that antag HoPs can do all these things but non-antag HoPs cannot would simply mean heads of staff/wardens validing the shit out of HoPs tresspassing, etc.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Saegrimr » Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:51 am #40355

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The clown stampede thing seems to be a more recent trend over the last month. The problem with that is people using clown as a license2griff, reinforced by "i've got like 5 other clowns backing me up nobody can stop us"
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby miggles » Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:10 am #40373

HoP should have a code of conduct like space law that tells him a bunch of specific situations like when to give out extra access (like during emergencies), what to do when asked for access into departments, and which access codes he can give without referring to anyone first (ie supply, maint, cargo, assigning empty jobslots etc)
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Hibbles » Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:12 am #40375

I'm all for cracking down on HoPs who are being shitlers, we hold other Heads to a standard a bit above regular players in theory so hey.

The one thing I would say though, is don't make it a crime to have all-access. I guarantee you as many non-shit HoPs have access and use it sparingly or when it's needed, you just don't notice it as much as when he storms into the Armory at round start and becomes Judge Dredd. All-access is not inherently good or bad, it's like a gun. It can shoot good people, or bad people, or shoot nobody. And, also like a gun, it can give a moron a sense of power/authority he hasn't earned and lead to a bad outcome. Point is, ban them when they abuse the holy hell out of it when it's not warranted.

And where's that line? I dunno. Lots of stuff are in grey areas due to the complexity of this game. We know shitty HoPs when we, as an admin team or playerbase or whatever, see them.

Even if 'X should be jobbaned!' cries in OOC are literally about on the same tier as singulo.io for legitimate feedback and signal-to-noise-ratio.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Aurx » Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:26 am #40381

Hibbles wrote:All-access is not inherently good or bad, it's like a gun.

Space Law wrote:Possession of a Restricted Weapon
To be in possession of a restricted weapon without prior authorisation, such as: Guns, Batons, Flashes, Grenades, etc.

So are you arguing for decriminalizing unauthorized guns, or arguing for criminalizing unauthorized all-access? Because you can't make that argument and say "I want it both ways" without coming off hypocritical.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby miggles » Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:49 am #40389

i thought space law had a law against exceeding official powers, but i guess not
the point is that the hop should only be punished for abusing that power, not having it
reminder that space law isnt the rules
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby cedarbridge » Mon Nov 03, 2014 3:25 am #40392

miggles wrote:i thought space law had a law against exceeding official powers, but i guess not
the point is that the hop should only be punished for abusing that power, not having it
reminder that space law isnt the rules

If we're comparing crimes (and that's what HBL said, crime) then spesslaw is the only stable standard. Nobody said anything about non-IC rules and the comparison is apt.

Also jesus Miggles you've posted that "reminder" in 6 threads today. Go to bed.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby paprika » Mon Nov 03, 2014 3:49 am #40397

HoP is HoS
QM is Warden
Chef/Bartender are detectives
Cargo techs/miners/botanists are sec officers
Clown/mimes are lawyers

I ultimately think the HoP should play a much larger role in the service departments like how other heads of staff can help out their departments but in the end the HoP is completely disconnected from service/supply since the QM runs supply as a mini-head like the warden and the bartender/chef basically do whatever they want since they have their own mini-departments almost.

The problem with the HoP is that he has nothing to fucking do unless the captain dies.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby miggles » Mon Nov 03, 2014 3:49 am #40398

cedarbridge wrote:Also jesus Miggles you've posted that "reminder" in 6 threads today. Go to bed.

lol ive said it twice in the past 2 days
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Timbrewolf » Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:50 am #40418

I don't understand how we're hearing both "HoP has nothing to do" and "HoP is always super busy" at the same time.

HoP has rushes of activity. At the start of the round he's got a lot of people who immediately want a job change (but don't take the time to actually go ask/get a stamp). As the round winds on and that clears up, with his most pressing job done he's now in a position where he has some free time. A lot of people use this opportunity to become THE BATMAN and are never seen again. I'm not going to list a ton of suggestions, but I think there's a lot more stuff you can come up with that'll be enjoyable for other players on the station using your connections in your department and your authority.

Ultimately who is in your department? The source of all incoming wealth to the station, Cargo and Mining. The primary source of food and drink on the station, the Bar the Kitchen and Botany. The (ostensibly) primary source of entertainment on the station, the Clown the Mime the Librarian and the Chaplain. As well as a whole motley cast of assistants. There's a lot of potential for shenanigans in there that I think is still largely untapped. Please don't assume that a push to make the HoP take his role as ID-Issuer and gate-keeper a little more seriously is a push to rip the fun out of the job. If adding 10 clowns to the station with bridge access is all you can think of, you're not thinking hard enough.

We are looking to inject some more RP into the game and bring back some of the humor and light-hearted fun. If the scope of what you can get away with using the ID machine draws in a little bit, maybe it's an opportunity to shine a spotlight on some of the other stuff you can do. My point is he DOES have a department he leads. Most HoP's just choose to ignore it and let it run itself. The challenge is that the people under him are a really fractured lot spread across a HUGE swathe of the station. But at the end of the day, if you can get them to listen to you, that's a LOT.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby miggles » Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:13 am #40422

the HoP should get a bunch of service headsets in his locker or maybe a vending machine or something that he can hand out to assign people to his "department"
basically giving him a bunch of underlings to talk to and try to get to do things for him
like assistants but they actually assist
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Timbrewolf » Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:21 am #40427

Not that that's a bad idea, but we should try to keep policy and rules discussions separate from code additions.

For the time being, let's focus on what we can do with what we already have. Once we've nailed down what exactly the policy changes would be, then we can have an effective conversation about new toys and things that would really help change.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Steelpoint » Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:26 am #40428

All Access can be a great assets for good HoP's and giving yourself All Access, or at least having a hidden ID that does have it, is a good thing. If you never end up using your all access, no one will complain or notice. If a very bad event causes you to use your all access to help people, you will be praised. Abusing your access will get your scorned very quickly.

It gets old really fast to discover some random people being given Security access without being told. Some kind of higher responsibility on the part of HoP players would be interesting to look into.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Timbrewolf » Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:34 am #40432

I don't think a HoP giving themselves all access should be immediate PM time either.

Now if they use that to run right into the Captain's Quarters, smash his case open, and stuff his laser in their belt just 'cuz then we got a problem. Like a HoP running into any area and stealing random shit (the armory, R&D, Engineering for gloves and a toolbelt) from a department that probably has people in it that would be using that stuff to do their ACTUAL JOBS should probably be asked "Why you doin' that?"
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Steelpoint » Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:37 am #40433

An0n3 wrote:I don't think a HoP giving themselves all access should be immediate PM time either.

Now if they use that to run right into the Captain's Quarters, smash his case open, and stuff his laser in their belt just 'cuz then we got a problem. Like a HoP running into any area and stealing random shit (the armory, R&D, Engineering for gloves and a toolbelt) from a department that probably has people in it that would be using that stuff to do their ACTUAL JOBS should probably be asked "Why you doin' that?"


All Access is just another tool, just as you would get in trouble for using your gun to kill people randomly or your toolbelt to break into the AI Core as a non-antag, using your all access for malicious activities is a bad thing.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby bandit » Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:38 am #40434

The problem, as I see it, is that people have no idea what is acceptable and not for the HoP and have muddled through a list of things that are shit, some of which are shit and some of which are not. This problem will not be solved until people get it straight. Like so:

cedarbridge wrote:Assigned greys to departments without aurhorization from the HoD


Kinda questionable, sometimes there may be good reason (antag head), most of the time there isn't

Refused to properly assign greys to departments without "signed" permission forms with stamps etc etc etc


Perfectly acceptable, encourages RP, encourages use of RP items like chameleon stamp, people bitching about this need to stop

-Opened all the clown slots forever


Questionable, but players are equally to blame because if people hated it that much they wouldn't go clown forever

-Gave themself all-access


Genuine gray area

and immediately closed the HoP line window


Rude, but within their rights

Rubbernecked through departments without proper reason to be there


Questionable, except in emergencies

Functioned as a second QM while an active one was already present


Acceptable, they are the QM's boss

Let themself into the armory/seclockers fnr


Both shit and perma-able (for armory), except no one ever actually arrests for it
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Arete » Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:55 am #40436

Nominally, the HoP has a bunch of crew members under him that he can do stuff with. In practice, it doesn't happen, and it's not going to just start happening when you tell HoPs to be better. You've got to examine the reason why the situation is what it currently is before you take action to improve it.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby MrGlasses » Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:12 am #40437

Just a reminder, the HoP is in charge of the following positions (IE: Equivalent as the CMO is to medical doctors):
Botanists
Chef
Bartender
Clown
Mime
Cargo Tech
Quartermaster
Chaplain
Librarian
Shaft Miners
Lawyer

There's a lot you can do as the HoP other than create havoc and antag hunt.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Arete » Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:32 am #40439

I'm saying that the number of positions that are nominally under the HoP is irrelevant. They don't function as the HoP's subordinates. This isn't because HoP players are somehow less competent than everyone else. It's because the game in its current state discourages them from functioning as the HoP's subordinates.

MrGlasses wrote:Botanists
Chef
Bartender


The things they can create by cooperating are underwhelming enough that people playing these jobs usually go lone wolf and try to have fun on their own terms. Any interaction with them is on an individual level.

MrGlasses wrote:Clown
Mime
Chaplain
Librarian


Here also, there's no incentive for cooperation, so they usually do an individual gimmick or ask for a second job. Over the last couple of days I've seen a scientist chaplain and a mime sec officer.

MrGlasses wrote:Lawyer


I can't remember the last time I've seen a lawyer interact with the HoP. Lawyers pretty much exclusively deal with sec.

MrGlasses wrote:Cargo Tech
Quartermaster
Shaft Miners


If the HoP starts directing cargo around, then the QM is made obsolete. About the only time they'll actually work together in harmony is when setting up guncargo. And I'm not even sure what sorts of orders you could give to a miner that wouldn't interfere with his normal business.

It seems like you're getting hung up on the idea that HoP should be played a certain way, so it must be the fault of those who play it that it's not. But when an undesirable outcome is happening the vast majority of the time, that's not an issue with the players, that's an issue with the system they're constrained by.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Steelpoint » Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:37 am #40441

The current idea of the HoP is that he is the head of anyone outside of the major four departments (Engi, Sec, Med and Sci). Whereas in reality he's really a liaison between the command staff and the crew.

The civilian sector does not require a head of staff to function, and Cargo has the Quartermaster who acts as a semi-head to begin with.

Maybe we should try and style the Head of Personel to act more of a second in command or a liaison between the crew and command, and less of us trying to stuff him into a actual command role. When we think of a head of staff we assume they are essentially leading a department, yet the HoP is the exception to this rule but we still like to imagine he is doing that.

Make the HoP more of a lieutenant that serves the Captain more directly and acts as the public relations.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Timbrewolf » Mon Nov 03, 2014 7:17 am #40445

It's a recursive problem.

Civilian sector positions don't listen to the HoP, so the HoP doesn't try to interact with them much.
Since they're not used to seeing the HoP try to interact with them, they tend not to pay much attention to him/her.
Since civilian sector positions don't pay much attention to him/her, the HoP doesn't try to interact with them much.

And so on, and so on.

To change that, we have to start from somewhere. If at the very least we change something that encourages the HoP to try, then that's a small victory in and of itself. Finding ways to encourage those positions to listen to him would come next, once we've hammered out these proposed changes to HoP conduct. I would suggest to a potential HoP player to focus not on telling a specific sub-department how exactly you want them to run, but encourage them towards something you would like them to do while using the resources your other departments can provide to accomplish that. You want to make a "Papa HoP's Pizza" service? Get the botanists to provide the chef with the ingredients he needs, get someone from cargo to start picking up the pizzas, and then have someone in the mail room start firing pizzas all over the station into every department. "Welcome to Papa Hop's, where you get a pizza whether you fucking ordered it or not."...until one of your delivery guys turns out to be a fucking terrorist and the Captain's pizza has special explosive crust. Meanwhile he's riding around on a murdermule firing an ebow and throwing slices at people like a maniac, screaming "ILL GET THAT SHUTTLE CALLED IN 30 MINUTES OR LESS"

Congrats you just did something new.

Regardless, if you're playing as a good HoP whose goal isn't to see how much access he can hand out before the station is burning down, the changes we've discussed on the admin-side of things really wont affect you one bit.

Normally I would want to include the playerbase in talking about those ideas as quickly as possible, but given the current headmin status (I'm one person at a table with two empty chairs) I think it's jumping the gun to introduce those concepts without vetting them against the other two headmins and any other admins who would like in on that conversation. I wanted to get this ball rolling as soon as possible because it's something I saw happening a lot especially this last week, and according to this poll I was right in guessing it's been on the mind of a lot of other players as well.

But it would pre-emptive, to say the least, for me to jump out and say "...and here's how we're gonna do it!".
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Arete » Mon Nov 03, 2014 7:40 am #40449

I agree with all that in principle, but the tone of the first post here suggests that you're inclined to approach this exclusively from the enforcement angle, which I don't agree with. Last I checked, HoP wasn't a very popular job (I would get it a majority of the time back when I set it at medium priority). So, it makes sense that we're seeing a lot of bad HoPs, because people aren't enjoying the HoP role for its own sake.

Basically, I think that we can't just drive away the bad HoPs, we also need to draw in some good replacements, and that means pairing up the stick with a carrot. Though I'm not sure what that carrot should be either. Preferably something that reduces the tedium and stress that non-antag HoPs face, since antag HoPs are already quite strong.

I'm glad the discussion is happening, in any case. It's a delicate issue, so taking the time to talk it out and reach a consensus won't draw any complaints from me.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby mrpain » Mon Nov 03, 2014 7:47 am #40452

I absolutely despise HoP's who play to play "HoPcurity". You are a glorified human resources official and head of the supply and general staff, NOT a security officer. You do NOT get to act as security. If you wanted to play as security you should have signed up as security. This encourages awful meta/valid hunting behavior and needs to be stamped out immediately. My suggestions for stopping this are

-Get rid of the energy gun in his locker
Why does he have this if none of the other heads, save for the HoS, has one? Again, not security. It encourages HoPcurity behavior, in my opinion at least

-Get rid of the security records console in his office
This one is debatable, since, well, obviously, you might not want to give, say, science/toxins access to someone with a long history with treacherous behavior, and being able to look at records when security actually bothers to update them could be useful for this, but then again, why is someone who security is constantly having to deal with being allowed to walk freely through the station? Furthermore, the HoP can easily set people to arrest himself with this. Again, you are NOT security. Dont act like you are.

Lastly, this isnt so much a suggestion, as it is a rant

See this?

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https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Chain_of_Command

Become familiar with already established "policy"/standards. You are NOT second in command. You are first in line to receive it, should the captain be unable to perform his job, become incapacitated, killed, lawfully brigged, or resign. Your rank is EQUAL to other heads. You are NOT above them, and you are NOT to attempt to demote another department head without authorization from the captain. And quite honestly, you don't deserve all access unless you are promoted to captain through this circumstance or become acting captain. It isnt appropriate, as, again, you are not second in command, you are first in line to receive it. If I'm captain, and I catch my HoP with all access, he's getting bitched at, and if it becomes anymore of a problem than that, I demote him. You dont need it, it's intrusive and disruptive. You have no business in other departments other than your own.

At the very least I would like to see job bans placed on HoPcurity maint batmans when possible, and understanding of the already established chain of command.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby miggles » Mon Nov 03, 2014 8:37 am #40458

i disagree heavily with that line of thinking. i like the idea of the hop being second in command, like a lieutenant to the captain. he takes on responsibilities that the captain doesnt because hes either busy bossing around the HoS or downing shots in the bar. he does all the office work and personnel management. his responsibilities include making sure there's enough people in each job, getting the service departments to do what they should, and taking over when the captain is a condom. the problem here is that good HoPs like that arent that common. for all intents and purposes it is a management job, but instead we get THE OWL and guys who go braindead 10 minutes after the first wave of ID changes.
the captain on the other hand really only has to take the nuke disk and like, kill xenos. anything else is above and beyond the line of duty and captains who play proactively deserve their own box of medals to be returned to them.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Raven776 » Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:52 am #40470

miggles wrote:i disagree heavily with that line of thinking. i like the idea of the hop being second in command, like a lieutenant to the captain. he takes on responsibilities that the captain doesnt because hes either busy bossing around the HoS or downing shots in the bar. he does all the office work and personnel management. his responsibilities include making sure there's enough people in each job, getting the service departments to do what they should, and taking over when the captain is a condom. the problem here is that good HoPs like that arent that common. for all intents and purposes it is a management job, but instead we get THE OWL and guys who go braindead 10 minutes after the first wave of ID changes.
the captain on the other hand really only has to take the nuke disk and like, kill xenos. anything else is above and beyond the line of duty and captains who play proactively deserve their own box of medals to be returned to them.


Him being the second in command doesn't imply he'd be doing any of those other things you just said. Those things after the 'downing shots in the bar' are all jobs that the HoP has that the captain would not have, nor would any job that is second in command once the HoP is made captain on the captain's very early death.

Second in command implies that you listen to him after you listen to the captain. Him doing paperwork, organizing departments, and all that other shit is just being a HoP.

If he has jurisdiction over security, medical, and science as well, THEN he'd be second in command behind the captain.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Scott » Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:58 am #40472

HoP is not a lieutenant, he is the guy in charge of cargo and service and job assignment. Assigning access to a department that is not under his authority, without authorization of that department's head, is shittery.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Cham » Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:06 pm #40474

Pretty much every head job runs an innate risk of ruining a round if they're not experienced enough for whatever situation gets thrown at them. Inversely, if the head domineers and tries to be captain junior (HoP mostly), then it sucks all the fun out of the game. I definitely think that standards and expectations from players should be implemented for head positions.

The biggest thing that making much higher standards for heads brings is a bigger emphasis on roleplaying, which is sort of what you want from the game. There are going to be people who say that it's being a tryhard, but overall the largest aid to the quality of rounds on the server is going to be an increase in the standards for roleplaying.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Erbbu » Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:37 pm #40481

I just wish access to some things did not entirely depend upon one guy feeling like helping me out or me rolling the right job at round start. I think the machines that currently require access should be hackable, like the robotics or R&D ones.

Even if we force HoPs to git gud there will always be the time when no one rolled HoP or some antag dunked him/her and got rid of the corpse.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Steelpoint » Mon Nov 03, 2014 1:13 pm #40488

Violaceus wrote:miggles, it's not way of thinking, it's actual policy that HoP is equal to other heads.


Hence why he said he liked the idea of, not that was currently the case.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Mon Nov 03, 2014 3:11 pm #40508

Scott wrote:HoP is not a lieutenant, he is the guy in charge of cargo and service and job assignment.

Scott wrote:Assigning access to a department that is not under his authority, without authorization of that department's head, is shittery.

What.

No, it is not. I won't refuse a job to a guy just because RD thinks he has to do all the science on his own.

Especially since people not in the round can still join opened slots

Sure, there can be good reasons to refuse, but ultimately it's up to HoP. Just as how to do R&D is ultimately is up to RD and what medicine to produce is ultimately up to CMO.

If you have issues, it's up to captain to resolve the matter. Which makes sense and somebody WILL hold a bunch of power, that's just the way things are.

Frankly, I don't understand why HoP is getting so much attention. Captains aren't really regulated and they can do even more.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Steelpoint » Mon Nov 03, 2014 3:30 pm #40510

Now we are approaching opinion territory. In my opinion I will oft warn if not arrest HoP's who wantonly assign people to departments without even informing or asking for permission from the effected head of staff.

Its a conflict of interest, some people see that the HoP is free to assign people to departments at will while others see that HoP's must consult the relevant head before assigning to other people's departments.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Mon Nov 03, 2014 3:48 pm #40512

If heads are supposed to decide that, why have a single guy in charge of all access there is? Why not split it so that relevant heads give relevant access with captain being in charge of all?

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Steelpoint » Mon Nov 03, 2014 3:54 pm #40513

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:If heads are supposed to decide that, why have a single guy in charge of all access there is? Why not split it so that relevant heads give relevant access with captain being in charge of all?


Because that would be a waste of their time, hence why it's more efficient to delegate the mundane task of ID assignment to the Head of Personal. So instead of a head having to go through the time and effort of promoting someone, they simply can just accept or deny a request from the HoP and the rest of the dirty work is preformed by the HoP.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby cedarbridge » Mon Nov 03, 2014 3:56 pm #40516

bandit wrote:Refused to properly assign greys to departments without "signed" permission forms with stamps etc etc etc


Perfectly acceptable, encourages RP, encourages use of RP items like chameleon stamp, people bitching about this need to stop[/quote]
This scenario left out the part where the HoP was literally just doing it to be shit. The RD had several times called the HoP over the command channel to authorize the job change and was busy dealing with the AI or whatever do hunt a stamp, etc. Muh RP and all but this ended up with the Captain, HoS and RD removing the HoP from his position before the shift was half over. So no, there's no RP in bureaucracy that's worthy of protection in this case. Requiring communication with the HoD is one thing, requiring a series of paperwork before simple things are done is shit and its a hallmark of QMs that people refuse to do business with as well.

Functioned as a second QM while an active one was already present


Acceptable, they are the QM's boss

Then we have a functionally useless and obsolete position on our hands. There's no reason to have a boss of a boss overseeing a job entirely built on "push a crate." By the same token we'd have captains running R&D while an RD is present just because "they're the RD's boss." We're not talking about replacing lost or missing crew, I'm talking about being the third wheel in departments where you're really not needed. This does functionally nothing for anyone except the HoP who gets to stroke their title. That makes it shit.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:02 pm #40520

Steelpoint wrote:Because that would be a waste of their time, hence why it's more efficient to delegate the mundane task of ID assignment to the Head of Personal. So instead of a head having to go through the time and effort of promoting someone, they simply can just accept or deny a request from the HoP and the rest of the dirty work is preformed by the HoP.

Which makes it impossible to actually look at the person in question and then I ask, how did you even decide that? And what about people who just join the game from lobby? What's the difference?

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby cedarbridge » Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:14 pm #40524

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:If heads are supposed to decide that, why have a single guy in charge of all access there is? Why not split it so that relevant heads give relevant access with captain being in charge of all?

Heads of staff can modify IDs to their department and take away the same relevant access at an ID console (functionally the one on the bridge unless the RD builds another one in his office or something.) The Head of Staff is king of his castle. That is, he's the final word short of the captain within his department. That includes who does and doesn't have access to that department. The HoS has every right to arrest and deaccess the clown the HoP just assigned wordlessly to sec just as much as the RD can detain and remove access from anyone assigned to science without proper notification and authorization. To think otherwise supposes that the HoP has authority above and beyond the heads of staff within their own departments which is false.

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Fatal » Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:38 pm #40538

Absolutely the HoP needs higher standards

I'm pretty sure when I am Captain, 8/10 of the HoPs I get will end up being warned, demoted, or just outright demoted for shitty behaviour

The issue really is that the HoP ONLY answers to the Captain in most matters, although security does seem to keep a better eye on them these days, and the Captain is usually too busy to worry about the HoP, or it's one of those people who doesn't care about the HoP ignoring their job

But, you can pretty much guarantee any HoP will do one of these three things at round start:

Give full access to themselves, make a second ID with ID console access, and leave it in the machine for Johnny Greyshirt to steal

Go to a security locker and swipe stuff out of it (doesn't happen as much these days since all the lockers got moved to the brig)

Go to engineering and swipe toolbelt and yellow gloves wordlessly

If your HoP hasn't done one of these three things 10 minutes into the round, give them a fucking medal for not being shit

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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Timbrewolf » Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:39 pm #40539

Why burden other heads with this process of chasing down people who are being garbage and demoting them when the HoP could've easily asked "Hey do you need any more engineers?" before sending six assistants down to steal all the gloves and get in a fist fight over the space suit so they can fuck off to space?

Saying the HoP has ultimate authority over who gets access to other departments is like saying the CE has ultimate authority over who gets power, and he would be within his right to come turn off your APC's just because he feels like it. If the CMO decides randomly not to clone people from other departments, it's fine because it's his cloner and it's in medbay.

But no we already would PM either head doing something like that and ask them why they're purposely antagonizing other departments.

A HoP giving people access to a department without conferring with that head is antagonizing that head. He's undermining authority.


Here's a yet unmentioned boon to this as we go on: making the ID process take more work and potentially more rejections for requests happen ought to encourage people to adjust their preferences to actually represent roles they want to play, since the ease with which you can just go beg for the job you really wanted is likely to dwindle.

With three character slots to assign preferences to, there's no reason why 20% of the station should be running to the HoP looking for job changes in the first place.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby bandit » Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:00 pm #40545

This sort of gets at my point. People currently judge a "shit HoP" as "someone who doesn't give out access I want" -- unless they are a head of staff, in which case the definition magically shifts to "someone who gives out access I didn't want." There is no way to see eye to eye, and there is no way to win as HoP. Much like security. The solution is a playerbase solution. Unfortunately, no one has figured out how to encourage the playerbase.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Timbrewolf » Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:02 pm #40546

A HoP is no more obligated to give out access to someone than the HoS is to hand out items from the Armory because you asked nicely.

Similarly, how a HoS should exercise caution in handing out e guns and lasers, the HoP should be expected to be careful about who gets access to what and why.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Saegrimr » Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:18 pm #40552

mrpain wrote:-Get rid of the security records console in his office


Its there so he can look up suspicious people and not give sec access to the greyshirt who has already been brigged 5 times for being a turd.
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Antonkr » Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:01 pm #40569

Posting what I wrote in the admin discussion of this topic.

Meant to post yesterdays but cookies fucked up my post.

I have a few issues with making the HoP require asking the department heads prior to relocation. Of course I agree with making them more responsible for their actions such as adding 20 clown slots and giving out all access repeatedly, we shouldnt require them to ask before reasinging jobs. The issue with this is that it makes the HoPs job mostly obsolete. He should be the person to make the choice of employment etc, and should be the one handling assignment and reassignmemt (once again to an extent.) If we expect people to be more responsible with the job, we need to give them power that will actually make it an interesting job.
A director of personnel oversees the employer's human resources department and may or may not manage a team. The position establishes and implements all strategic objectives, policies and procedures. Included are both the strategic and transactional duties within every human resources area such as recruitment, employee relations, labor relations, benefits, compensation, training and sometimes payroll
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Tl:dr give them power of assigning/reassigning/firing people, but make them responsible for the shit they do. Simply taking away their power makes the job boring and further undesirable
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Re: Higher Standards for Head of Personnel

Postby Malkevin » Mon Nov 03, 2014 7:28 pm #40586

For a start, we could reimplement that hop office/human resources office map change I made ages ago, one of the large problems with hops is that they're in a room that no one but them and the captain has access too.

Some trays with premade J3RB and 4CC-3SS forms would help for mah rp paperwork too.

Yeah I know you were wanting more policy ideas and ideas for better RP but this is one of the things coding small stuff could help.


Lo6a4evskiy wrote:If heads are supposed to decide that, why have a single guy in charge of all access there is? Why not split it so that relevant heads give relevant access with captain being in charge of all?

Same reason the hop is first in line to the captains seat, because everyone else is busy
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