Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Dr_bee
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Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by Dr_bee » #428931

Bottom post of the previous page:

I regularly play derelict drone and head station-side, primarily because there is literally not enough resources to do anything of note on the derelict. But I also head station-side because drone's were my favorite ghost role and their removal was unexpected, unexplained and unpopular.

I quite literally play as a drone should, I fix the station, do small building projects, make repairs, and power the station. I am careful to double check if I am fixing something that might be intentional sabotage and I make sure to not trap people in places by fixing things and such.

Typically I only get praised when I am a drone, and because getting to the station is such a hassle and I only have functionally 1 life as a drone, I tend to be even more cautious about what is going on around me as to not become worth killing.

I have gotten mixed messages about derelict drones, I have never had issues coming station-side for several months until a recent round. In which I was told I shouldn't leave it.

I have three issues here. 1. Why were drones removed in the first place and not improved in some way. 2. What is the policy on derelict drones heading to the station to just act like a drone. and 3. What are the purpose of derelict drones, considering the station they start on has absolutely shit all for resources to build anything.
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Lazengann
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by Lazengann » #429284

the fuckup was by the admin team deciding drones shouldn't impact the round. Fixing things impacts the round you dummies what kind of drunk person made that policy
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WarbossLincoln
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by WarbossLincoln » #429308

Agreed, you can't exist and not impact the round in any way. You fix one hull breach, even if it wasn't caused by intentional sabotage, and you can have a massive impact on the round. The policy was dumb. If that's the policy that admins really wanted then Drones shouldn't have been in the game to start with. You can't be in the game at all and not have some impact on the round. Now that they're gone robos need to make positrons way more often.
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Dr_bee
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by Dr_bee » #429319

Lazengann wrote:the fuckup was by the admin team deciding drones shouldn't impact the round. Fixing things impacts the round you dummies what kind of drunk person made that policy
As far as I can tell it was a compromise to get them into the game as the first ghost role. Now we have blatant extra life ghost roles in the form of lavaland ghost roles and drone policy didnt change.

Giving certain roles in game that require admin roleplaying oversight has always caused problems on /tg/ drones are not unique to this, I mean look at the countless silicon policy and complaint threads. The Silicon policy wiki page itself reads like a fucking law textbook compared to other shit.

That being said, some stuff for drones could use tweaking outside of policy. For example, do drones really need both all access AND ventcrawling? Ventcrawling only would fit much better.

In derelict drone map news, Ive tested the map and the engine doesnt immediately blow up if left alone, and when set up normally is stable, so that is goal number 1 finished.
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DemonFiren
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by DemonFiren » #429330

>do drones really need both aa and ventcrawling
>let's remove their aa
sure, let's deny maintenance access to the role that exists to do maintenance
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by Dr_bee » #429337

DemonFiren wrote:>do drones really need both aa and ventcrawling
>let's remove their aa
sure, let's deny maintenance access to the role that exists to do maintenance
suddenly maintenance access and all access are the same thing. Assistants everywhere rejoice.

I never said remove maint access. they will obviously need it.
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Anonmare
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by Anonmare » #429342

Just give them a flag that lets them pass through airlocks without opening them, fluff it as a drone-only maintenance hatch if you particularly care enough about lore and lose the vent-crawling. Vent-crawling is ass now that it's so slow and vent-teleportation hasn't been a thing in years.
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by DemonFiren » #429350

ventcrawling is pretty useful for relocating to broken atmos pipes
and it doesn't make sense for the things not to be able to ventcrawl if even huge-ass xenos and monkeys can do it
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by RogueSteampunker » #429398

Drones were removed cause the rules were a convoluted mess that makes the silicon policy look like a brief issue, while the rules continued to stay in their state people argued about enforcing them instead of changing them, and anyone capable of changing them being smart enough to get the fuck away from them. Drones were, have been, and will continue to be a mess while they remain unchanged, and will only ever become viable when a mixture of law changes and features for them are changed. Cause as it stands, not even borg laws have so many creases and dents in their enforcement, cause at least they can touch plants.

Tl;dr drones are fucked, and will remain fucked until someone with the knowledge to code and the lack of knowledge to avoid the drone minefied to make enforcing drone laws easier.
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by CreationPro » #429401

RogueSteampunker wrote: Tl;dr drones are fucked, and will remain fucked until someone with the knowledge to code and the lack of knowledge to avoid the drone minefied to make enforcing drone laws easier.
Well you gotta figure out what you want then. Strictly repairs? Or maybe building new stuff? Or maybe grow plants? Or maybe don't?
Get a clear goal to work towards and start from there. I'd say at the very least allow them engineering repairs/piping broken sections/fixing wires etc.
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by Saegrimr » #429428

Hot idea: Bring back drones and make me dronemin, overseer and banner of shitty drones.
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DemonFiren
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by DemonFiren » #429470

why don't you come back in full instead
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by Nilons » #429477

Drones are such a powerful evil they continue to have policy threads even after death
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by DemonFiren » #429488

drone cult when
final goal is to summon freedrone, crashing the universe by flooding it with policy threads
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by Saegrimr » #429498

DemonFiren wrote:why don't you come back in full instead
Sounds boring
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by CreationPro » #429500

DemonFiren wrote:why don't you come back in full instead
cuz he gay and probably like pee pee
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by Anonmare » #429654

>plants are beings

U fucking wot mate
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by DemonFiren » #429659

Anonmare wrote:>plants are beings

U fucking wot mate
look at any medical, command, or engineering manifest
crew listed are either fruits or vegetables
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by CreationPro » #429664

plants are beings

people are doings
terranaut wrote:Scared? My stand 「CLOWN WORLD」 and it's 「FUNNY COMPANY」will defeat your weak stand in moments.
Terry the Moth, Melody Jean the roboticist and S.O.L. the cyborg.
I will not change my avatar but if I did I'd have this good KVADRATNIY boy.
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IkeTG wrote:love is okay
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Old quotes and stuff
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obscolene wrote:I super glued my PC case shut please don't ask why.
<Pretendo> well Ia ksed in banbus
<AurxSS13> IA KSED! IA KSED! THE BLACK TYPO WITH A THOUSAND ERRORS!

<scaredofshadows> I randomly take buttons away from people
<scaredofshadows> because I am now rogue
<hornygranny> host is rouge
<Ikarrus> blow the admins
trytryagain66 wrote: I accidently axed a guy said I was sorry to him, then he punched me so I axed his head off.
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by Iatots » #429668

Plants are living beings. Not everyone wanted to count them as beings because they are basically objects, but they had to be or else some drone players would just grow plants all shift.
Some people are just not willing to play second fiddle, and not every admin is willing to deal with them because they empathize with the game feeling like a job to check in and hoping you get to do something fun for the day.
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Anonmare
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by Anonmare » #429681

Plants are living things, but they aren't beings. A being has to possess a form of consciousness to experience events and don't you dare try to tell me a plant can experience anything beyond being eaten by rabbits. But if we're going purely by game definitions, then plants STILL wouldn't count because they aren't mobs.

Also, why exactly is a drone growing plants all shift a problem? If you're being disrupted by plants then you have a much bigger problem

What the actual fuck has being going on in policy discussion if you've been ruling plants as being defined as beings?
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by Anonmare » #429683

Here, lemme write out a simple as fuck policy that will solve every problem ever:
  • 1. Don't disrupt other beings or their activities. A being is a mob, yes that includes the cleanbots - don't touch them.
  • 2. If someone tells you to fuck off - Fuck off. No, that doesn't mean come back 2 minutes later, you stay fucked off until whatever they're doing is done.
  • 3. Don't unfuck sabotage or fuck over someone else's work. Yes, you can fight a fire and repair the damage from a bomb, but you cannot stop plasma from pumping into distro or disarm a bomb, you're not there to be a preventive measure (if that's a problem then don't play drone). If you're doing a project and someone else comes in and takes over then you gotta leave, sorry but that's tough titties, pick a different role if that's going to be a problem.
  • 4. Don't do anything that would reveal or conceal the roundtype, that's metagaming shit and you can fuck right off to hippie or paradise with that.
  • 5. You can mine/grow plants/make food/make drinks/build machines/re-decorate rooms, so long as you aren't doing it in a way that could be construed as being overtly disruptive or disrupt other mobs in the course of doing so. That means no killing mining mobs or force-feeding people your shitty concoctions, leaving it out is fine unless you poisoned them in which case you can fuck right off you fucking useless prat.
  • 6. If you encounter a situation in which the above simple as fuck points failed to cover - Use your fucking brain and err on the side of caution, adminhelp if you must.
There, drone policy is sorted - I'll take my cheque in the mail.
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by Iatots » #429686

Get a time machine and play the game for once rabbit. Drones were doing other people's jobs. With rounds as short as they are and were, some people decided to hop out the murder victim pool into the all access no station meddling bodies. Drones growing plants, drones serving drinks and cleaning the floor. The game started breaking down for the non-antags in menial jobs because a bunch of mr. handy's were doing all the little things one keeps themselves busy with when the antag roll failed, and because you can only play so many "10 minutes of rushed DnD" and "rage cage torn down by cyborgs after 5 minutes" rounds.
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by Anonmare » #429687

I do play. See point 2

Just tell the Mr Handy to fuck off or get the AI to blow them from the robo console if you're that butt-blasted. If they persist, get an admin involved, it's literally what they're there for

Mr Handy wouldn't even be doing their jobs if they actually did them themselves for a change. Janitors just futz around while the Chef CQCs people after luring them into his ERP fort, even post-drone removal.
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Grazyn
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by Grazyn » #429688

Arguing about the definition of being is missing the point, drone laws aren't real laws, it's just part of the fluff text written like silicon laws for immersion. Just another brick in the shit wall of drone policy
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by RandomMarine » #429689

Anonmare wrote:Here, lemme write out a simple as fuck policy that will solve every problem ever:
  • 1. Don't disrupt other beings or their activities. A being is a mob, yes that includes the cleanbots - don't touch them.
  • 2. If someone tells you to fuck off - Fuck off. No, that doesn't mean come back 2 minutes later, you stay fucked off until whatever they're doing is done.
  • 3. Don't unfuck sabotage or fuck over someone else's work. Yes, you can fight a fire and repair the damage from a bomb, but you cannot stop plasma from pumping into distro or disarm a bomb, you're not there to be a preventive measure (if that's a problem then don't play drone). If you're doing a project and someone else comes in and takes over then you gotta leave, sorry but that's tough titties, pick a different role if that's going to be a problem.
  • 4. Don't do anything that would reveal or conceal the roundtype, that's metagaming shit and you can fuck right off to hippie or paradise with that.
  • 5. You can mine/grow plants/make food/make drinks/build machines/re-decorate rooms, so long as you aren't doing it in a way that could be construed as being overtly disruptive or disrupt other mobs in the course of doing so. That means no killing mining mobs or force-feeding people your shitty concoctions, leaving it out is fine unless you poisoned them in which case you can fuck right off you fucking useless prat.
  • 6. If you encounter a situation in which the above simple as fuck points failed to cover - Use your fucking brain and err on the side of caution, adminhelp if you must.
There, drone policy is sorted - I'll take my cheque in the mail.
Fucking all of this. But I'll propose an amendment.

Be mindful of your use of resources. Don't leave a department starved of metal and glass. Don't waste minerals printing fancy tools or bags of holding unless there's either a generous surplus or you gathered the materials yourself. Cosmetic hats are always fair game.
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by Iatots » #429690

Telling a drone to fuck off doesn't delete the plants they have grown, the whatever they fixed or built, or reapply a nice layer of puke in the stations corridors.

"Use your fucking brain". This is not a hivemind, different people place different amounts of importance to every aspect of the game you can think of. Things like these are how you end up in policy threads.

"Doing other people's jobs because they aren't" is one of the biggest thorns in this game's side. Moonlighting is NOT ok. A lot of leeway is given to people not playing their assigned role at the cost of roleplay. You give that to drones too and the game slides further down the "trouble in terrorist town but 2d and crafting" territory.

Drones were meant to be, or at least sold as, a small labor force meant to fix all those little things that break in a round but players don't pay much attention to: redundant wires, outer walls, the lawyer's windows. Background action. Anything a job slot is meant to actively work towards is not background action.

I'll show you my drone headcanon since you showed me yours:

  1. Maintain the station's infrastructure to shift-start conditions, except where change was applied by (players) in a meaningful manner.
  2. (If player willing to) You run ONE power diagnostics scan every X minutes. Should this scan reveal the station to be currently lacking a power source, attempt remedy in the MOST STABLE fashion possible. (Solars > PACMANS if plasma abundant > SM > singulo)
One drone shell spawns for every 15-20 players, with a minimum of one. Once a drone player ghosts or logs off for more than 5 minutes, their bodies despawns and a new drone shell pops out.

Sounds boring? Lackluster? Play a fucking job like a decade of development meant for you to do.
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by Actionb » #429798

A major point of removing the access to drone shells was (quoting from the PR):
CosmicScientist wrote:the role is designed for a higher standard of play than everything else. Admins are unable to enforce that consistently and miss bad behaviour.
'Higher standard of play' means:
- understanding when it's okay to impact the round (i.e. fixing a breach in an area with a lot of 'beings') or have an influence on other non-drones (hanging around the HoS for a while playing the star wars death march on the violin)
- not being a dick by abusing a drone's abilities (all-access, ventcrawling) to purposefully fuck with the round

Having the ultimate end-of-all drone policy that perfectly describes what drones can and cannot do would only help with the first point.
If the drone player does not understand the policy or simply ignores it (because 'lol no admins'), the policy is pretty much useless: "Admins are unable to enforce that consistently and miss bad behaviour".

One proposed solution is whitelisting players fit for playing drones. The PR kinda sorta already does this by requiring an admin to turn you into a drone as all drone dispensers and empty shells were removed.
If you want drones to come back, you are going to have to implement this whitelist and hope that nothing else stops the pull (for example drone code being terrible).

Do drones deserve to have a full comeback, though?
Don't ge me wrong, I love drones. Quaint little silent enigmatic beepboops buzzing around. At first, I was not a big fan of this removal as I have only seen a handful of really shitty drones and let's face it: who else is going to wear all these hats if not drones?
But after having read this thread and the PR's comments, and thinking about it all a little, it occurs to me that drones, in their current form, may be simply outdated.
Influencing the goings-on in a round can lead to a more fun experience for everybody. This is kinda the essence of SS13: lots of random people messing about creating a glorious clusterfuck of events in the process. Drones are strictly forbidden to participate in that. For a drone to 'advance the plot' in a round, means violating its rules. Doesn't that strike you as a contradiction of the general idea of SS13?
Obviously, this argument is a bit too philosophical - when have we ever had a round become boring due to having too many drones. Probably never, but bear with me.

Drones were introduced in a time when ways of coming back into the round were scarce, so people willingly opened the can of worms that are drones.
Today we have all kinds of things that let you keep playing after having been gibbed, most of which can be beneficial to the entertainment of everyone else in the round. So why keep a role that is more trouble than it is worth in the game at that point?
Removing features from your programm is totally legit if the feature is very old, poorly implemented, open to abuse or not up-to-date anymore... heck it is encouraged if a solution isn't forseeable. Think of it as pruning a tree.
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by subject217 » #429800

Grazyn wrote:Arguing about the definition of being is missing the point, drone laws aren't real laws, it's just part of the fluff text written like silicon laws for immersion. Just another brick in the shit wall of drone policy
It's handled like fluff text but drones were required to follow it. There is nothing special about silicon laws by comparison, they're just easier to change.
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by Grazyn » #429803

subject217 wrote:
Grazyn wrote:Arguing about the definition of being is missing the point, drone laws aren't real laws, it's just part of the fluff text written like silicon laws for immersion. Just another brick in the shit wall of drone policy
It's handled like fluff text but drones were required to follow it. There is nothing special about silicon laws by comparison, they're just easier to change.
As I said before, simple fluff text conveys the gist of how you should play a ghost role, while laws are usually interpreted and nitpicked just like AIs do. Drone laws weren't meant to be taken as silicon laws, drones had to follow the simple concept of "don't do anything that can heavily impact the round" but they used law interpretation to do any kind of shitty stuff like setting public cloners, public botany trays with OP plants and so on.
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by Dr_bee » #429844

I am wondering if We should move this to the ideas forum, or if I should start a thread there. Drones need a complete redesign from the looks of both how the admins handle them as well as how the community perceives them.
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by Shaps-cloud » #429847

Should someone tell him that drones are already dead?
P.S. Shoot Dr. Allen on sight and dissolve his body in acid. Don't burn it.
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by Dr_bee » #429850

Shaps-cloud wrote:Should someone tell him that drones are already dead?
Oh no, someone is trying to bring back a feature they like. lets be an asshole about it.
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by Grazyn » #429851

You can still ask admins to make you a drone right? Or do you have to tc trade for it?
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by Dr_bee » #429853

Grazyn wrote:You can still ask admins to make you a drone right? Or do you have to tc trade for it?
The problem being most admins wont give people drone. There is literally no incentive to do so, and only risk.

If there is going to be a whitelist then there needs to be a proper whitelist, I dont think it really is a proper solution but it is obvious that admins dont want to or are incapable of enforcing drone policy as it stands now via bans, to the point where the feature was removed. Thats kind of a problem dont you think?
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by Grazyn » #429855

Well I guess it's true, but if you have thousands of connections and no notes I think you could find an admin who would give you drone
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Re: Derelict drones, and drones in general.

Post by Rustledjimm » #429944

Ok so regarding derelict drones. Don't be leaving the derelict for the main station.

For regular drones please go make a drone thread in the ideas forum.
So uhh, I'm an admin. Please leave feedback! Oops took me a while to strike that through.

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