/tg/Station 13

There was a lot of huzzah about this feature when it was added. I've manually turned it on for a bunch of players, and while I was pretty concerned about how it would affect AI balance, I don't believe it's altogether that bad.

Furthermore, if it DOES have a significant silicon balance impact, the best way to generate feedback on this so that a solution can be found is to enable it.This is worth at least maybe a trial run of 1 month of being enabled, I'd say.

edit: now with pointless vote

I have a different opinion and I didn't feel comfortable choosing either of the previous choices. (elaborate in thread)

thank you for elaborating sweetheart, your input is appreciated

Maybe a trash idea but making it into a AI upgrade thats makeable via RnD/a space ruin might work well?

Boris wrote:Maybe a trash idea but making it into a AI upgrade thats makeable via RnD/a space ruin might work well?

This is possible as a balancing solution, but the thing is that I feel that people still aren't really sure if it's actually a balance problem or not. If people try it and it feels fine then there's no need to lock it behind RND.

The AI isn't meant to be crimewatch while asimov, not sure why they need 5 or however many static cams just to open doors.

The AI getting multiple camera seems like a good way to relive when sec borgs were reenabled. Seriously, there is little use for them that ISNT "totally just gonna watch these areas tators break into out of totally not meta-knowledge hunches."

Seriously, it's already hell enough to avoid the AI cucking any attempts at success, and multiple unearned cameras do not help this all

I've suggested AI Upgrades before and I don't know why I got shot down tbh.

If the AI really wants the upgrade, it has to let someone access it and they could easily kill it before it had a chance to react

RogueSteampunker wrote:The AI getting multiple camera seems like a good way to relive when sec borgs were reenabled. Seriously, there is little use for them that ISNT "totally just gonna watch these areas tators break into out of totally not meta-knowledge hunches."

Seriously, it's already hell enough to avoid the AI cucking any attempts at success, and multiple unearned cameras do not help this all

Some of it's not even a meta hunch. If an AI had multi camera powers why would they not always keep a tab on the armory, toxins, upload, vault, etc? I could see it being shitty if they kept a camera open on the location of non harmful traitor items like the CE's office with its blueprints.

From a game balance perspective it probably is a bit too powerful. The only real limiting factors to how easily the AI can fuck a traitor is camera coverage and the fact they can only be in 1 place at 1 time.

I won't lie though, if the number of cameras was unlimited I'm imagining someone with an array of like 9 monitors in a 3x3 grid having the entire station mapped out in front of them. That would be a beautiful level of autism.

There is a maximum limit of cameras (9 iirc in a 3x3 grid) and in return they trade the ability to actually have their mobile camera moving around, so they can only watch the static cams.

If I’m not mistaken, multicammed cameras have a very visible red glow to them so you can see what areas are dangerous even without the traitor item more or less made for this purpose?

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:If I’m not mistaken, multicammed cameras have a very visible red glow to them so you can see what areas are dangerous even without the traitor item more or less made for this purpose?

But they can just keep looking there all round.

leibniz wrote:But they can just keep looking there all round.

Until you stroll up and cut the cam. Or EMP it.

I think it's worth implementing as a regular feature, as a way to make the AI more like it's theoretical image of a supercomputer monitoring the station instead of a dude sitting at a camera monitor with some extra controls.

We can always adjust things like the emp flashlight/other means to disable cameras to adjust, and if I recall multi-camera already comes with an implicit tradeoff for the AI, I believe something about motion sensors not working? It was mentioned in the original PR.

Players got tired of secborgs because they contributed nothing to the game aside from shutting down fun and this is headed in the same direction.

To me, this is another example of "I can code <impressive thing> so <impressive thing> is good and should be added".
It would be a great addition to a game where the AI is the protagonist, but our situation is more complicated.

Regarding EMP.. traitor uplink used to be a fun selection of stuff.. Now it's more like "if you want even a slight chance of doing <objective>, <thing> is a mandatory buy"

Just my opinion.

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:If I’m not mistaken, multicammed cameras have a very visible red glow to them so you can see what areas are dangerous even without the traitor item more or less made for this purpose?

What happens if you need to pass the area?

You have to cut the cam, which the ai is watching obv, OR hope you bought emps and the emp doesnt heck over anything else in the room.

As of now though cameras don’t just magically go off so either option is going to cause the valid squad to check it out since the ai will definitely report it.

Just make sure its an option for the AI players themselves first, and don't make it obligated so people can't law request to turn it on.

This is probably gonna make the byond client crash more for AIs and there's also an overload of information often already, I don't want to be law 2'd to turn the dumb thing on and constantly watch the same areas while distracting from my main view.

Cobby wrote:

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:If I’m not mistaken, multicammed cameras have a very visible red glow to them so you can see what areas are dangerous even without the traitor item more or less made for this purpose?

What happens if you need to pass the area?

You have to cut the cam, which the ai is watching obv, OR hope you bought emps and the emp doesnt heck over anything else in the room.

As of now though cameras don’t just magically go off so either option is going to cause the valid squad to check it out since the ai will definitely report it.

WEAR. A. DISGUISE.

there are counter-plays, just because you have to work around something as a traitor doesn't mean it is broken or a bad addition, you are not entitled to an uncontested traitor round, and losing is part of the game.

Why is this so hard for people to get?

disguise or not, the AI can instantly start screeching and have borgs/sec on you in moments

What kind of shitty AI screeches about people being in EVA

Just Law 2 it to fuck off and not tell anyone and if it does, ahelp it

Anonmare wrote:What kind of shitty AI screeches about people being in EVA

Just Law 2 it to fuck off and not tell anyone and if it does, ahelp it

dumb bunny
who said anything about it being at EVA and not somewhere more critical like the upload
any powergaming AI (which are absolutely the AIs that would use this feature) would monitor all places like these and harmyell before you even get the chance to law 2 anything

Dr_bee wrote:

Cobby wrote:

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:If I’m not mistaken, multicammed cameras have a very visible red glow to them so you can see what areas are dangerous even without the traitor item more or less made for this purpose?

What happens if you need to pass the area?

You have to cut the cam, which the ai is watching obv, OR hope you bought emps and the emp doesnt heck over anything else in the room.

As of now though cameras don’t just magically go off so either option is going to cause the valid squad to check it out since the ai will definitely report it.

WEAR. A. DISGUISE.

there are counter-plays, just because you have to work around something as a traitor doesn't mean it is broken or a bad addition, you are not entitled to an uncontested traitor round, and losing is part of the game.

Why is this so hard for people to get?

> puts on epic disguise
> do the bad thing
> oh no the AI saw
> ; GUYS TO LOCATION PLEASE TOTALLY DO NOT HARM THE UNKNOWN BUT THEY'RE PROBABLY BAD BUT DONT HARM THEM HAHA I LOVE ASIMOV PLEASE MAKE SYNDICATES NONHUMAN WINK WINK
> Am suppose to change in my disguise before they swarm me or run around and hope the AI doesn't see me on their plethora of cams, assuming they don't bolt every potential exit for the validcrew to come in and "subdue" me
> come out
> ; Oh wow he died wonder what happened? Must have been a magic harmfairy, I'll be on the lookout guys!
>

There's "> wanting uncontested traitor rounds" and then there's not wanting to have to 100% literally every time cut every potential camera and then some/turn off suit sensors/cut ai wires/buy emps andor the cam multitool thingy because a singular role is able to validhunt so well and is not every discouraged from doing so.

I will say if you play on Terry you won't understand this plight so that's fair that this argument is bollocks there, but at Sybil and Bagil there are plenty of bored individuals frothing at the mouth just to find a reason to turn (you) horizontal.

Cobby wrote:I will say if you play on Terry you won't understand this plight so that's fair that this argument is bollocks there, but at Sybil and Bagil there are plenty of bored individuals frothing at the mouth just to find a reason to turn (you) horizontal.

I can attest to that, I've seen AIs harmyell on sec channel "because the mime is in EVA" even though war ops were announced three minutes ago.

this is why the hub was a mistake

DemonFiren wrote:this is why the hub was a mistake

AIs have been like this for literal years, the robotic fucks

strange, I remember them being better

but that's probably just nostalgia glasses

Cobby wrote:*snip*

Thats a policy enforcement issue then, The best AI's are neutral to the station unless there is explicit harm. Dont fuck over good AI's having good tools because of bad AI's misuse of those tools.

CosmicScientist wrote:

Dr_bee wrote:

Cobby wrote:*snip*

Thats a policy enforcement issue then, The best AI's are neutral to the station unless there is explicit harm. Dont fuck over good AI's having good tools because of bad AI's misuse of those tools.

I can't tell if an AI saw me or a sec officer because of ":s valid detected", so I cannot ahelp it to help policy enforcement. The 1TC multitool or the encryption key does change that if I'm a traitor and didn't buy something else. I'm also upsetti spaghetti because I've learned only now that purged AIs can't valid me as an antag who dindunuffin besides hack open the vault, gosh and darn I wish I had ahelped it at the time because there was an admin on. reeeee silicons can go fuck themselves

It is intended for you to be at a disadvantage if you dont buy shit to counter something. It is called making strategic choices, and it is good game design. If you had the resources to counter all threats all the time it would be fun for no one but the fucking traitor.

You are supposed to be vulnerable to some things, it is part of the game, people have given you the resources to counter extra camera coverage, If you choose to buy other things or do other stuff and then get dunked by an AI or warden on cameras that isnt the overpowered AI's fault it is your fault for letting yourself get counter-played.

Dr_bee wrote:

CosmicScientist wrote:

Dr_bee wrote:

Cobby wrote:*snip*

Thats a policy enforcement issue then, The best AI's are neutral to the station unless there is explicit harm. Dont fuck over good AI's having good tools because of bad AI's misuse of those tools.

I can't tell if an AI saw me or a sec officer because of ":s valid detected", so I cannot ahelp it to help policy enforcement. The 1TC multitool or the encryption key does change that if I'm a traitor and didn't buy something else. I'm also upsetti spaghetti because I've learned only now that purged AIs can't valid me as an antag who dindunuffin besides hack open the vault, gosh and darn I wish I had ahelped it at the time because there was an admin on. reeeee silicons can go fuck themselves

It is intended for you to be at a disadvantage if you dont buy shit to counter something. It is called making strategic choices, and it is good game design. If you had the resources to counter all threats all the time it would be fun for no one but the fucking traitor.

You are supposed to be vulnerable to some things, it is part of the game, people have given you the resources to counter extra camera coverage, If you choose to buy other things or do other stuff and then get dunked by an AI or warden on cameras that isnt the overpowered AI's fault it is your fault for letting yourself get counter-played.

there's a big difference between getting an EMP kit to counter borgs if robotics is making a lot of borgs that round (being prepared), and HAVING to buy an EMP of some kind EVERY round because the AI will ALWAYS have omnipotent cameras (forced to get a mandatory buy).

PKPenguin321 wrote:

Dr_bee wrote:

CosmicScientist wrote:

Dr_bee wrote:

Cobby wrote:*snip*

Thats a policy enforcement issue then, The best AI's are neutral to the station unless there is explicit harm. Dont fuck over good AI's having good tools because of bad AI's misuse of those tools.

I can't tell if an AI saw me or a sec officer because of ":s valid detected", so I cannot ahelp it to help policy enforcement. The 1TC multitool or the encryption key does change that if I'm a traitor and didn't buy something else. I'm also upsetti spaghetti because I've learned only now that purged AIs can't valid me as an antag who dindunuffin besides hack open the vault, gosh and darn I wish I had ahelped it at the time because there was an admin on. reeeee silicons can go fuck themselves

It is intended for you to be at a disadvantage if you dont buy shit to counter something. It is called making strategic choices, and it is good game design. If you had the resources to counter all threats all the time it would be fun for no one but the fucking traitor.

You are supposed to be vulnerable to some things, it is part of the game, people have given you the resources to counter extra camera coverage, If you choose to buy other things or do other stuff and then get dunked by an AI or warden on cameras that isnt the overpowered AI's fault it is your fault for letting yourself get counter-played.

there's a big difference between getting an EMP kit to counter borgs if robotics is making a lot of borgs that round (being prepared), and HAVING to buy an EMP of some kind EVERY round because the AI will ALWAYS have omnipotent cameras (forced to get a mandatory buy).

>ignoring chem EMPs

name one single time those have EVER been used to any good effect on CAMERAS. keep in mind that they require uranium, something you MUST go to mining to get, and some chemistry. also keep in mind that i have maybe 3 years of playtime on you and have not seen it even once. "b-but muh other sources of EMPs!!!" has never been a good argument

PKPenguin321 wrote:name one single time those have EVER been used to any good effect on CAMERAS. keep in mind that they require uranium, something you MUST go to mining to get, and some chemistry. also keep in mind that i have maybe 3 years of playtime on you and have not seen it even once. "b-but muh other sources of EMPs!!!" has never been a good argument

You can, I dont know, cause a distraction, or cut the cams when you know the AI isnt looking. Or you could build an unsynched borg and have it help you. there are numerous things you can do that require no TC to counter silicons.

The multi-cams have a tell so it isnt an invisible eye in the sky, it is only marginally different from adding motion sensors to a camera. People bitch about silicons way to much, I swear.

How about we enable it on roundstart for malf AI? Allow you to watch core/RD office/etc. as a slight boost given how hard it can be to multitask watching stuff as malf.

Denton wrote:

Cobby wrote:I will say if you play on Terry you won't understand this plight so that's fair that this argument is bollocks there, but at Sybil and Bagil there are plenty of bored individuals frothing at the mouth just to find a reason to turn (you) horizontal.

I can attest to that, I've seen AIs harmyell on sec channel "because the mime is in EVA" even though war ops were announced three minutes ago.

This is something I absolutely hate about AIs and I always make an effort to not do as AI. Unless someone is committing harm or is in a place that can cause great harm like the amory or atmos when they're not allowed in, I don't care at all where people are. I don't even tell sec when someone breaks into the captain's office unless I see them trying to steal the laser gun.

Dr_bee wrote:

PKPenguin321 wrote:name one single time those have EVER been used to any good effect on CAMERAS. keep in mind that they require uranium, something you MUST go to mining to get, and some chemistry. also keep in mind that i have maybe 3 years of playtime on you and have not seen it even once. "b-but muh other sources of EMPs!!!" has never been a good argument

You can, I dont know, cause a distraction, or cut the cams when you know the AI isnt looking.

do you not realize that multi-cams means that the AI is ALWAYS looking? that's like their purpose

PKPenguin321 wrote:

Dr_bee wrote:

PKPenguin321 wrote:name one single time those have EVER been used to any good effect on CAMERAS. keep in mind that they require uranium, something you MUST go to mining to get, and some chemistry. also keep in mind that i have maybe 3 years of playtime on you and have not seen it even once. "b-but muh other sources of EMPs!!!" has never been a good argument

You can, I dont know, cause a distraction, or cut the cams when you know the AI isnt looking.

do you not realize that multi-cams means that the AI is ALWAYS looking? that's like their purpose

Yeah but then the AI has to keep an eye out for 9 different cameras while also managing the station. This is not something that is easy to do

Dr_bee wrote:

Cobby wrote:*snip*

Thats a policy enforcement issue then, The best AI's are neutral to the station unless there is explicit harm. Dont fuck over good AI's having good tools because of bad AI's misuse of those tools.

We literally allow them to opt into spacelaw as default asimov. If you want that changed to make this a more likable thread then be my guest.

That said, good AI's don't need crimewatch as asimov.

Pizzatiger wrote:

PKPenguin321 wrote:

Dr_bee wrote:

PKPenguin321 wrote:name one single time those have EVER been used to any good effect on CAMERAS. keep in mind that they require uranium, something you MUST go to mining to get, and some chemistry. also keep in mind that i have maybe 3 years of playtime on you and have not seen it even once. "b-but muh other sources of EMPs!!!" has never been a good argument

You can, I dont know, cause a distraction, or cut the cams when you know the AI isnt looking.

do you not realize that multi-cams means that the AI is ALWAYS looking? that's like their purpose

Yeah but then the AI has to keep an eye out for 9 different cameras while also managing the station. This is not something that is easy to do

The feature is explicitly made to be easy to do

Anuv wrote:How about we enable it on roundstart for malf AI? Allow you to watch core/RD office/etc. as a slight boost given how hard it can be to multitask watching stuff as malf.

I don't mind this as a module. Maybe make it cheap but it's 1 cam per to a max of 9.

I totally think this should be merged. but I play AI so my opinion isnt worth as much I guess.

to the people complaining about AIs that would powergame by making cameras at areas like the upload: they're high security areas to begin with. it's not like an addition like this is going against this. most of the areas this'd be used for aren't supposed to be easy to break into to begin with.

wanna break into the upload? dude. you could easily get an AI upload board from tech storage (except omega because apparently it doesnt have a tech storage and you got me there) and assuming you are dead set on subverting the AI you have probably already bought an AI law upload module with TC which at that point you have literally no reason to go into the upload. if you're seriously against spending TC to do something this incredibly specific I dont know what to tell you

wanna break into the armory? unless you plan to murderbone the ablative vest should be the only reason you're coming here. there are tons of ways to get around an AI watching the place 24/7. literally one EVA suit and unequipping your ID means you can deconstruct/C4 the northern armory wall (after cutting the camera) to space in meta/boxstation faster than most sec can respond and easily get your objective, which at that point an AI witnessing it effectively means nothing because an AI couldnt tell sec anything that they dont already know.

what most people aren't acknowledging is that there is a tradeoff for the multicamera mode in that your view range is hilariously decreased because of how much your splitting your vision. if you're really worried about the AI using a 3x3 grid view to see you break into X area just pay heed to the age old mantra of "get gud"

They should be hard to break in because they're being watched.

This usually means if the individual is defending X they're not at A,B,or C.

However, with the AI, they can be at X,A,B,C,D,E,F all at the same time.

There's a lot of misinformation here, I don't think you can use it as a secondary view.

It's either 9x9 grid of static cams or your mobile cam

That actually might be a lot more sane then.

>4020
no, I don't think this is the one

oranges wrote:There's a lot of misinformation here, I don't think you can use it as a secondary view.

It's either 9x9 grid of static cams or your mobile cam

You can activate or de-active multicamera mode at will, so functionally it's just a secondary view for the AI.

I suppose if they can put up with the switch delay you could use it in that way