Killing non-harming non-humans as synth

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angelstarri
 
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Killing non-harming non-humans as synth

Postby angelstarri » Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:20 am #435651

What is the server's policy on this? Last round I was an Asimov, non-traitor AI cyborg and the AI commanded me to kill a felinid who was acting Captain, who wasn't actively harming any humans, because "I don't care. She's a cat. I can do whatever I want to her." I refused to do this for fear of getting a Rule 1 punishment. Later in the round, I was reprimanded by the AI player on OOC who confronted me that, because of the server's Enforce Human Authority setting (which apparently was "nanotrasen policy"), non-humans should not be allowed to hold Command roles and should be dealt with.

As precedence, this is the positronic brain's flavor text.

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You are a positronic brain, brought into existence aboard Space Station 13.
As a synthetic intelligence, you answer to all crewmembers and the AI.
Remember, the purpose of your existence is to serve the crew and the station. Above all else, do no harm.


Notice how the word 'human' is not in any of the sentences in the code. I am aware this is meant to change given lawsets, but assuming one is on Asimov, this should act as a guiding principle for the player.

Additionally, I am aware of an admin-hosted event where a non-human was given extraordinary permission from Centcomm to command the research vessel. This only made me question what a player should do in this situation. Do you follow the AI's command, and put a player out of the round for a "I can kill you because I want to" reason, or not and disobey your AI?
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I strongly suspected the borgs were one humaned by the Captain because of their increasingly strange behavior throughout the round after the Captain had entered their upload and seemingly changed the laws. I had asked twice if I could blow the borgs to no response (because there was no admin online apparently). They were constantly complimenting the Captain and calling her pretty and essentially threatening people who called the Captain ugly - Pepper Oni.



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Re: Killing non-harming non-humans as synth

Postby BeeSting12 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:22 am #435653

If a human or your master AI orders you to do that, it's on them if anyone gets killed. You're also welcome to ask in the radio if you have to do it or even just announce it, and once you get a conflicting order you don't have to do it.
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Re: Killing non-harming non-humans as synth

Postby Cobby » Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:02 am #435670

A rule of thumb as silicon,

If a order like killing or something naughty is asked of you (within your laws ofc), do the order THEN ahelp. You'll never get in trouble for it and I'd prefer to clean up a mess then potentially get someone in a bad spot because they were (rightfully) expecting an AI to do something as the order was put out.
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Re: Killing non-harming non-humans as synth

Postby bandit » Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:29 am #435674

Cobby wrote:A rule of thumb as silicon,

If a order like killing or something naughty is asked of you (within your laws ofc), do the order THEN ahelp. You'll never get in trouble for it and I'd prefer to clean up a mess then potentially get someone in a bad spot because they were (rightfully) expecting an AI to do something as the order was put out.


uh so can there be an official ruling on this? because I see your reading but it's also the literal opposite of what silicon policy generally recommends. this specific situation isn't in there, but generally everything says to ahelp first
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Re: Killing non-harming non-humans as synth

Postby oranges » Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:55 am #435680

there's no chance you would be banned for this, so you should do the lawful order immediately

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Re: Killing non-harming non-humans as synth

Postby Dax Dupont » Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:48 pm #435772

Also posibrain laws get overridden by Borg laws so you have to ignore them when borged.

But yeah follow the command and ahelp since this was not kosher, a non human acting head is no reason for murdering them unless they are harming people.

AI is not a smart man.

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Re: Killing non-harming non-humans as synth

Postby Anonmare » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:40 pm #435785

Cyborgs follow their AIs orders, unless their order explicitly goes against the Lawset (I.E. Harming a Human).
Technically you hsould do what the AI says but the AI is in the wrong. Ahelp the order and carry it out, anything you do will be on the AI's orders and it gets the bollocking.

In addition, under Asimov, you may not kill non-Humans for no reason. Keyword being "no" reason, you are allowed, and encouraged to do so, if you are: A, defending a Human. B, following a Human's orders to kill them. Or C, protecting your own existence.

So if you see a Lizard fighting a Syndicate Human mob, then technically you should help the Syndicate mob kill the Lizard.
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Re: Killing non-harming non-humans as synth

Postby WarbossLincoln » Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:31 pm #435876

Anonmare wrote:So if you see a Lizard fighting a Syndicate Human mob, then technically you should help the Syndicate mob kill the Lizard.


You would be allowed to, but it would still be kind of dickish since you know the lizard isn't a mass murdering criminal armed to the teeth to blow up the station. It's a better option to try to flash the lizard and drag him away than to just kill him.
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Re: Killing non-harming non-humans as synth

Postby Anonmare » Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:10 pm #435895

Not always an option unfortunately. With flash protection, violence may be your only option
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Re: Killing non-harming non-humans as synth

Postby bman » Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:41 pm #435909

So if you see a Lizard fighting a Syndicate Human mob, then technically you should help the Syndicate mob kill the Lizard.

last time i ahelped with the question they told me human simple mobs arent human
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Re: Killing non-harming non-humans as synth

Postby Anonmare » Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:14 pm #435910

bman wrote:
So if you see a Lizard fighting a Syndicate Human mob, then technically you should help the Syndicate mob kill the Lizard.

last time i ahelped with the question they told me human simple mobs arent human

Who told you that? That's wrong
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Re: Killing non-harming non-humans as synth

Postby subject217 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:37 pm #435932

Anonmare wrote:
bman wrote:last time i ahelped with the question they told me human simple mobs arent human

Who told you that? That's wrong

No, it's right. NPCs are not human as per the chart on the Silicon Policy page.
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Re: Killing non-harming non-humans as synth

Postby Anonmare » Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:29 am #435959

That's dumb and retarded. It should be non-Human NPCs. There's no outward difference between a Human NPC and a Human Player to an AI and using OOC terms like NPC to ID a difference is the worst idea I've ever heard and I've seen ballistic sec
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Re: Killing non-harming non-humans as synth

Postby RandomMarine » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:59 am #436198

It's a necessary gameplay compromise because simple mobs are generally not able to be stunned.

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Arianya
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Re: Killing non-harming non-humans as synth

Postby Arianya » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:27 am #436203

Plus something like the Syndicate Portal Storm can make human harmers out of everyone on the station by pure necessity.
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Re: Killing non-harming non-humans as synth

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:15 pm #436255

Gee, that sure would be terrible because "human harmer" is a status condition that lets the silicons ignore you forever oh wait we ban shitter AIs who try to pull that
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Arianya
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Re: Killing non-harming non-humans as synth

Postby Arianya » Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:17 pm #436256

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Gee, that sure would be terrible because "human harmer" is a status condition that lets the silicons ignore you forever oh wait we ban shitter AIs who try to pull that


See the above discussion about a lizard/felinid/other having to fight a presumed-human syndicate simple mob and technically speaking should be murdered for being a non-human human harm threat.
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Re: Killing non-harming non-humans as synth

Postby Anonmare » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:40 pm #436351

When are we going to replace human simplemobs with actual carbon mobs
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Re: Killing non-harming non-humans as synth

Postby oranges » Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:38 am #437291

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Gee, that sure would be terrible because "human harmer" is a status condition that lets the silicons ignore you forever oh wait we ban shitter AIs who try to pull that

no we don't lol

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Re: Killing non-harming non-humans as synth

Postby PKPenguin321 » Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:26 am #437326

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Gee, that sure would be terrible because "human harmer" is a status condition that lets the silicons ignore you forever oh wait we ban shitter AIs who try to pull that

i wish we banned those guys
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Re: Killing non-harming non-humans as synth

Postby EagleWiz » Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:17 am #437554

The carbon mob thing is a little confusing, and I've heard multiple things from multiple admins when I ahelped the issue. just for the sake of fun I think the best policy is to not try to kill them, and maybe say some disproving things about humans who are killing carbon simple-mobs, but not actually doing much to stop it or to prevent the people responsible from harming again.

As for "Law 2 AI kill all the lizards" its a valid order, but its the sort of valid order that I have never seen a negative admin (or player really) response from loudly announcing to the entire station that I AM ABOUT TO KILL THE LIZARDS IN COMPLIANCE WITH A VALID LAW 2 ORDER NOW and then hopefully someone tells me to stop before I start locking lizards in rooms and venting the air.

For pda messages to kill some non-human and to not tell anyone that's trickier - its a valid order, but you should probably ahelp it (and then carry it out unless there's an immediate bwoink telling you not to do it)

Finally for fights between an antag human and a non-antag non-human - you're an AI. You don't care about antag status beyond the elevated human harm potential. If the non-human is plausibly going to harm the human (and lets face it, they probably are in a fight), you gotta side with the human. That's kind of the point.

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Re: Killing non-harming non-humans as synth

Postby Arianya » Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:48 am #440231

If someone gives you an order that you think is rule violating, report it to the admins and do it.

If someone orders you to do an action you find ICly distasteful then you are allowed to delay and complain about the order within reason and your laws. You still have to do the order though.

Simplemobs are considered non-human under Silicon Policy. As other's have stated this is as much a concession due to their unstunnable, murderous nature as anything.

I think that answers all of the points raised in the thread.
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