War ops and shuttle hunting

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Luke Cox
 
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War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Luke Cox » Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:50 am #435843

Right now, actively hunting for the ops shuttle during any ops round (war or no war) is banned. This is a holdover from the old shuttle system, where the shuttle could only park in one of six locations. People could just meta the shuttle locations and find it virtually risk free. Now, the shuttle can park anywhere on the z-level. That plus the turrets actually makes shuttle hunting pretty risky. We've also got a problem with ops declaring basically every round and half the station population suiciding immediately. If ops declare war, it makes sense for the crew to know that they're coming. End a mechanically obsolete policy. Add a cost to war ops. Make shuttle hunting legal.
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby subject217 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:42 am #435851

IMO you can still find it extremely quickly if you just scan the z-level with a jetpack. It should be against the rules to shuttle hunt the entire z-level, but allowed to call it out and raid it if it's parked within visual range of the station.
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Luke Cox » Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:00 am #435853

The problem is that anyone can just say that they "found it on accident" and it turns into a he-said-she-said situation. Definitely proving the person was actively shuttle hunting is going to be very difficult, and any kind of policy is going to be virtually impossible to implement unless you presume guilt. War ops spawn with comical amounts of points. There's no reason they can't buy a reinforcement kit and give the guy a gun and a basic hardsuit to act as a guard, or have him move the ship every minute or two. We can either continue to enforce a counterintuitive policy spurred on by an old system, or we can change it to better fit modern mechanics.
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Arianya » Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:38 am #435854

The rule as I understood it, is that you are forbidden from finding it, full stop, unless you follow an operative or a pinpointer points to it. You see the shuttle "accidentally" while drifting around the station? Too bad, you didn't actually see it.

Putting one person on permanent guard duty is boring for the person who's there, and doesn't solve issues like the crew dropping maxcaps/welderbombing/etc the shuttle from the exterior, especially since the turrets are near braindead even if you're just drifting, let alone if you have a jetpack, and have blindspots galore when you actually get up near the shuttle.

The cost to war ops is that you give the crew a lot of fore notice and time to order shotguns/autorifles/build a fort/etc. Additionally, removing the rule would impact non-warops pretty badly, since as soon as an ops callout would be made there would undoubtedly be people scanning space.

I'll be the first to admit the rule isn't as stringently enforced as it could be, mostly because it requires watching the nuke op shuttle/general comms for any mention of the shuttle and then ensuring they didn't follow a nukie/pinpointer.

As subject says though, if the operatives park the shuttle within line of sight of the shuttle, it's fair game.
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Luke Cox » Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:57 am #435856

Arianya wrote:I'll be the first to admit the rule isn't as stringently enforced as it could be, mostly because it requires watching the nuke op shuttle/general comms for any mention of the shuttle and then ensuring they didn't follow a nukie/pinpointer.

That alone is reason to scrap the policy. Like I said, anyone can just say that they followed a nukie and there's basically nothing you can do to prove them guilty unless you decide to arbitrarily presume guilt.

The guard duty thing makes sense, but you could just as easily argue that the crew having to sit around for 20 minutes not being able to do anything productive is also boring for most of them. I don't think sacrificing one nukie is really a problem. You say that war ops have a cost, but then why is nearly every ops round a war round? Clearly the cost is not steep enough, and a lot of players agree that it's a problem when half the station kills themselves out of frustration when it happens. Right now war ops means tons of free shit for the ops at the cost of half the station killing themselves for you.
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Kel » Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:50 am #435859

War Ops happen nearly every nuke round because it's more fun.
If people were given an announcement that its just a normal nuke round people would still commit suicide even without the 20 minute grace period.

I still think you're right, though.
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Anuv » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:21 am #435866

I hate shuttle attacks so much. There is literally no worse feeling than parking the shuttle far, closing the door, and still finding the nuke stolen.

-Nukes should be instantly replaced if stolen unfairly, no questions asked.
-Shuttle walls should be indestructible.
-I feel like the policy needs to be enforced more/more clearly. Far too many people have gone after the shuttle (myself included) without knowing the rule
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Arianya » Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:25 pm #435868

Luke Cox wrote:That alone is reason to scrap the policy. Like I said, anyone can just say that they followed a nukie and there's basically nothing you can do to prove them guilty unless you decide to arbitrarily presume guilt.


I disagree with that being reasoning to scrap the policy. The policy still has a problem it aims to resolve, and while it may very well need a rewrite/code changes to the shuttle to better enforce, removing it outright doesn't make sense. Also generally speaking we already arbitrarily presume guilt within a certain confidence barrier for various rules, see the "it was actually my brother playing", "I didn't mean to maxcap the shuttle" etc.

The guard duty thing makes sense, but you could just as easily argue that the crew having to sit around for 20 minutes not being able to do anything productive is also boring for most of them. I don't think sacrificing one nukie is really a problem. You say that war ops have a cost, but then why is nearly every ops round a war round? Clearly the cost is not steep enough, and a lot of players agree that it's a problem when half the station kills themselves out of frustration when it happens. Right now war ops means tons of free shit for the ops at the cost of half the station killing themselves for you.


Not wanting people to have to do guard duty is not an issue of game balance, it's an issue of game experience. Lets say guard duty was effective (which I don't think it is), now no one will answer reinforcement requests because they know they'll just be forced to sit in the shuttle with a stetchkin while the rest of the nukies get to actually play nukeops. Now one op at random has to do guard duty and will bitch and moan and now how long until people just turn off nuke op in their prefs because they don't want to be the shuttle guard?

As far as I'm aware, nuke ops stats haven't slanted much, with statbus still showing a pretty clear loss over win ratio for the nukies

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Obviously this isn't just "warops" rounds and its a lot of data so I'm not discounting the idea, but generally speaking I would say people go warops because they find it more interesting then just slamming in unannounced and grabbing the unguarded disk or because they want more toys to play with, a understandable reaction to getting antagonist.

My understanding of the players suiciding is that its two fold. In part its people who suicide because they want to be a [syndicate assault borg/reinforcement/other ghost recruiting role] and in part its people who suicide because they don't want to [do botany/clean the station/other] when the round is likely to be over within 30-40 minutes regardless of who wins. There are ways to solve this, such as making nuke ops not end with nuke op death and instead mulligan, but it's also worth noting that the station is generally speaking in bad shape unless the nukies were super flukes, but ultimately you can't solve the problem of shorter round types, in the same way revolution can end within 5 or 10 minutes if a head slips out into space/headrev goes to mining base/etc.
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Cobby » Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:11 pm #435872

The turrets hardly do their job and we can check ops location near instantly, I think the only issue is that we haven’t been strict on robustins who linger around in space actively searching for signs of ops to claim that’s how they found the shuttle
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby WarbossLincoln » Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:26 pm #435875

I still feel like just having the ability to auto red text the ops by spacing the nuke is BS. Or by BOH bombing the shuttle, or regular bombing it. I think the nuke should start anchored down and there's a menu option on the nuke to un anchor, but only someone with a syndicate implant can use it. I also think that nuke ops should be able to activate the station self destruct system as well as the nuke.
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby wesoda25 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:01 am #435954

As croc said, self destruct console is a valid code solution.

Also, last I checked nuke op turrets have 0 blindspots and effectively one hit crit you (since often you are hit by multiple at once), and only full speed jetpack prevents them from getting close. The turret AI isn’t braindead, nowhere near.

BOH Bombing does seem too easy a solution to nuke op shuttle though, and maybe policy or code can hammer that down.
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Dr_bee » Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:36 am #435961

If the operatives dont want to risk their ship getting blown up maybe they shouldnt loudly announce they are going to show up.

There are already very few downsides to war ops as is. I honestly dont trust the stats for it when there was a bug with op greentexting that was recently fixed and was in effect for god knows how long.

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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby BeeSting12 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:14 am #435970

The shuttle should only be valid to attack if it's parked within visual range of the station. As in, you can literally see it through a window. The turrets can be cheesed by an experienced player with little skill and nuke ops rounds will quickly grow stale if the meta turns into having five guys jetpacking around the zlevel looking for the ship to space the nuke. It'll also be boring for the guy left behind to guard the ship.

The only reasons you should be attacking the ship are:
You followed an op back.
The pinpointer led you back.
You can see the ship from the station.
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Kel » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:10 am #435979

the solution here is to add a tc item that buffs turrets massively and allow shuttle hunting on war rounds
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Denton » Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:43 am #435990

Kel wrote:the solution here is to add a tc item that buffs turrets massively and allow shuttle hunting on war rounds

I don't think that would work, you can cheese anything AI with hit&run, abusing the tick rate, lockers, shooting from off screen, etc.
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Kel » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:19 am #436004

Denton wrote:
Kel wrote:the solution here is to add a tc item that buffs turrets massively and allow shuttle hunting on war rounds

I don't think that would work, you can cheese anything AI with hit&run, abusing the tick rate, lockers, shooting from off screen, etc.

buff their HP and damage massively and let people try and cheese it, eventually they'll misstep and get crit in 1 shot and if not they just spent x amount of time clearing out buffed up turrets to hopefully meet the nuke ops returning to their shuttle
and even if not, oh well maybe if you guys were that concerned about defense they should've done a better job.

or just give the nuke ops a motion detector ping attached to the turrets or some shit so they know when the shuttle is under attack
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby DemonFiren » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:35 am #436007

or just give them a TC item that automatically jumps the shuttle the moment a turret goes down
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Arianya » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:48 am #436011

Kel wrote:
Denton wrote:
Kel wrote:the solution here is to add a tc item that buffs turrets massively and allow shuttle hunting on war rounds

I don't think that would work, you can cheese anything AI with hit&run, abusing the tick rate, lockers, shooting from off screen, etc.

buff their HP and damage massively and let people try and cheese it, eventually they'll misstep and get crit in 1 shot and if not they just spent x amount of time clearing out buffed up turrets to hopefully meet the nuke ops returning to their shuttle
and even if not, oh well maybe if you guys were that concerned about defense they should've done a better job.

or just give the nuke ops a motion detector ping attached to the turrets or some shit so they know when the shuttle is under attack


Or we make the much more straightforward decision that attacking the shuttle isn't conductive to fun gameplay, and is only acceptable in cases where you're already engaged/following nuclear operatives (or following the pinpointer) or the ops park too close.

or just give them a TC item that automatically jumps the shuttle the moment a turret goes down


"Uhh, where's the shuttle?" every nuke op after it jumps to a random location on the z-level.
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby DemonFiren » Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:02 pm #436013

don't they already have a beacon that tells them where
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Cobby » Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:08 pm #436015

I don’t think a code solution would be appropriate here, as eventually people figure out how to cheese it and nothing is gained except now a handful of people can ruin every op round.
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Kel » Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:10 pm #436016

i cant think of a single other gamemode that requires an arbitrary honor rule set in stone in policy just because its unfun when it happens to you

you know what else is unfun and doesnt have a policy against it despite the fact it causes outrage every time it happens?
being murderboned by changelings/traitors
security going full blown concentration camp against revolutions
the awful ass deconversion system forcing you to be executed rather than deconverted in cult (alternatively: the cult existing in general)
wizards playing like absolute pussies with multiple mobility spells

there are ways to play around your nuke getting stolen, and hell i'd argue its actually pretty hard to steal the nuke considering you have to be full blown prepared to do it or you're not going to achieve much
adding a simple gameplay mechanic that adds additional counterplay against nuke theft (thus allowing nuke within the rules) would open up a lot more potential excitement in the end game of nuke, which is normally incredibly binary (practically impossible to lose from this point)
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Cobby » Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:26 pm #436019

Are we forgetting this is in space so you can just throw a bomb from any distance then immediately activate with 0 counterplay except making the turrets global lol

There is nothing wrong with the honor rule when said honor rule allows you to still assault the shuttle if found appropriately, which is sufficient for policy until a magical code solution can take over
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Kel » Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:01 pm #436021

literally every single antag in the game gets foiled by blowing up a maxcap on them, let alone nuke ops. why is it such a god damn tragedy for the nuke ops to lose their nuke? its just a incredibly detrimental setback that realistically is impossible to recover from, but you know what that shit also happens to cults and revs so why are nuke ops so special?
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Arianya » Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:06 pm #436023

Kel wrote:you know what else is unfun and doesnt have a policy against it despite the fact it causes outrage every time it happens?
being murderboned by changelings/traitors
security going full blown concentration camp against revolutions
the awful ass deconversion system forcing you to be executed rather than deconverted in cult (alternatively: the cult existing in general)
wizards playing like absolute pussies with multiple mobility spells


Low pop murderbone does in fact have a policy against it, and very frequently excessive murderbone on any population level is inviting yourself to have !FUN! inflicted upon you like deathsquads, catastrophic meteors, etc.

The rest of these effectively amount to "losing isn't fun" which isn't really an argument. The nuclear operative shuttle rule exists because otherwise the second a red hardsuit is seen you have 3-4 or more people jetting around space looking for the shuttle. Even assuming they don't have a bomb/BoHbomb (something which becomes vastly more likely on warops, by the way), you are still talking something that would be very difficult for a single nuclear operative to guard against, and which the turrets are functionally not set up to deal with.

This is functionally not fun gameplay for the nuclear operatives or (ultimately) for the crew, because what ends up happening is the nuke is destroyed or BoHbombed to another z-level or [insert fate here] and now the nuclear operatives are all but forbidden the win so they'll go on a murderbone since its the only thing left to them.

It would be nicer to have a code solution to this problem but it's difficult to program a system that handles a thing you aren't allowed to do except under specific environmental circumstances, such as following a nuclear operative or it being visible from the station, hence why we don't have code enforced escalation.

there are ways to play around your nuke getting stolen, and hell i'd argue its actually pretty hard to steal the nuke considering you have to be full blown prepared to do it or you're not going to achieve much
adding a simple gameplay mechanic that adds additional counterplay against nuke theft (thus allowing nuke within the rules) would open up a lot more potential excitement in the end game of nuke, which is normally incredibly binary (practically impossible to lose from this point)


Turrets will not stop nuke theft/destruction in the case of bombs, let alone the issues with their AI (hint: People aren't joking when they say that anyone semi-experienced will not get hit by the turrets, and thats something inherent to their AI)

Nuke ops being binary in the end game is true but ultimately somewhat intended. You are meant to keep dat fukken' disk. If you lose it, and worse, let a nuclear operative leave the station with it, you shouldn't really be surprised what happens next.
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Arianya » Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:08 pm #436024

Kel wrote:literally every single antag in the game gets foiled by blowing up a maxcap on them, let alone nuke ops. why is it such a god damn tragedy for the nuke ops to lose their nuke? its just a incredibly detrimental setback that realistically is impossible to recover from, but you know what that shit also happens to cults and revs so why are nuke ops so special?


Among various other reasons, nuclear ops shuttle is generally speaking removed from the station and so can be maxcapped with impunity, where cults and revs bombing is a cost/benefit of damaging the station (and venting the atmosphere) in return for the chance to decimate the enemy. There is no cost to bombing the nuke shuttle (unless it's hugging right up against the station, I guess), so it becomes a no brainer.
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Kel » Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:16 pm #436028

there is very clearly a inherent glaring design flaw with the nuke ops as a whole with either:

the shuttle itself as a concept
the turrets are fucking worthless
having to use your own single limited resource nuke

which has forced a administrative policy on something for all intents and purposes should be a code issues (you wouldnt ban people for using a gun just because its ridiculously overpowered would you?), thus a code solution should be in order. enforcing gameplay balance with administrative polices has only spawned the current era of nuke ops in which such a large portion of roles literally commit suicide because the odds of them being able to do anything for the next 30-40 minutes are zilch because they didnt spawn close enough to the armoury. i'm sure the suicide statistics would be even more intense if crew always got a heads up of a nuke ops round weither or not it was war ops, even if less (considering people who probably commit suicide out of unwillingness to prepare for 20 minutes).
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Arianya » Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:25 pm #436030

Kel wrote:there is very clearly a inherent glaring design flaw with the nuke ops as a whole with either:

the shuttle itself as a concept
the turrets are fucking worthless
having to use your own single limited resource nuke

which has forced a administrative policy on something for all intents and purposes should be a code issues (you wouldnt ban people for using a gun just because its ridiculously overpowered would you?), thus a code solution should be in order.


You're welcome to suggest a rework of nuclear operatives in the Ideas forum or PR an implementation of it yourself. Otherwise noting that something "should be a code issue" is meaningless, since the vast majority of administrators are not in a position to even begin to implement such a solution, let alone PR it to github in a state acceptable to the head coder/maintainers.

We ultimately use the tools at our disposal to correct issues, and while obviously in a ideal world we wouldn't need to do so, there will always be more problems to solve then there are people willing to dedicate hours upon hours of their time to correct for free.


enforcing gameplay balance with administrative polices has only spawned the current era of nuke ops in which such a large portion of roles literally commit suicide because the odds of them being able to do anything for the next 30-40 minutes are zilch because they didnt spawn close enough to the armoury. i'm sure the suicide statistics would be even more intense if crew always got a heads up of a nuke ops round weither or not it was war ops, even if less (considering people who probably commit suicide out of unwillingness to prepare for 20 minutes).


As I've mentioned before, these suicides are not solely symptomatic of disliking war ops, but also of people who want to get one of the ghost recruiting roles. Regardless, I suspect you would be liable to see similar suicide rates for any shorter round type (i.e. wizard) if it was announced at round start.

Which may be a valid critique of the gameplay flow (there aren't enough worthwhile short-term projects for people to engage in, perhaps) but is not a glaring indictment of the mode inherently.
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Kel » Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:47 pm #436038

Arianya wrote:You're welcome to suggest a rework of nuclear operatives in the Ideas forum or PR an implementation of it yourself. Otherwise noting that something "should be a code issue" is meaningless, since the vast majority of administrators are not in a position to even begin to implement such a solution, let alone PR it to github in a state acceptable to the head coder/maintainers.

this is a policy discussion. we're discussing the policy. i'm arguing that it should be invalidated (for war ops, as it makes no sense to not know they are coming) as it makes no sense. people are arguing it needs to be a policy because of game imbalance. game balance is not the territory of administrators, it is the territory of the coders. a entire gameplay style revolving around subterfuge has effectively been utterly removed as a nuclear option as a response to poor balance. i know i cant force any coders to do anything and god knows i cant code in a fix, but that doesnt change the fact that this policy should be invalidated for war ops. it just doesn't make any damn sense. war ops have equipment out the ass and extra reinforcements. have somebody defend, keep the shuttle mobile, or just accept that an aspect of the game that can punish blind attacks with no regards to defense will, in fact, punish blind attacks with no regards to defense.

As I've mentioned before, these suicides are not solely symptomatic of disliking war ops, but also of people who want to get one of the ghost recruiting roles. Regardless, I suspect you would be liable to see similar suicide rates for any shorter round type (i.e. wizard) if it was announced at round start.


maybe people are bigger gamblers than i realize but it seems to me most people generally announce their distaste to the mode when they commit suicide, not eagerness to join the enemy faction. i don't blame them, a lot of jobs are worthless on nuke rounds if they arent handed a gun.
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Arianya » Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:55 pm #436043

Kel wrote:this is a policy discussion. we're discussing the policy. i'm arguing that it should be invalidated (for war ops, as it makes no sense to not know they are coming) as it makes no sense. people are arguing it needs to be a policy because of game imbalance. game balance is not the territory of administrators, it is the territory of the coders. a entire gameplay style revolving around subterfuge has effectively been utterly removed as a nuclear option as a response to poor balance. i know i cant force any coders to do anything and god knows i cant code in a fix, but that doesnt change the fact that this policy should be invalidated for war ops. it just doesn't make any damn sense. war ops have equipment out the ass and extra reinforcements. have somebody defend, keep the shuttle mobile, or just accept that an aspect of the game that can punish blind attacks with no regards to defense will, in fact, punish blind attacks with no regards to defense.


Game balance is absolutely in the realm of administrators, for as much as we're rule enforcers, we're also GMs who are intended to ensure the game remains fun for players, in as much as is possible.

Arguing that we should remove a policy because a code solution would be better is nonsensical. Once a code solution exists (and headministrators are content that whatever solution doesn't require the same policy) it would most likely be removed, but at present it still solves an existing issue.

The second part of this paragraph is just rehashing the argument, and I've already illustrated why having people on defence or moving the shuttle constantly are not good solutions to the problem from a game experience point of view.

maybe people are bigger gamblers than i realize but it seems to me most people generally announce their distaste to the mode when they commit suicide, not eagerness to join the enemy faction. i don't blame them, a lot of jobs are worthless on nuke rounds if they arent handed a gun.


I've seen comments both ways, ultimately not every mode is going to appeal to everyone, which is understandable, but I doubt "not being allowed to attack the shuttle unless they follow a nuclear operative" is the lynch-pin between it being enjoyable and not, especially since at best there are 10 or so space suits on the station by default, including things like departmental hardsuits.
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Nabski » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:01 pm #436049

18
8 EVA
Captain, Prototype (RD), HOS, CE, CMO
Two security suits, Two Engineer suits, 1 Atmos suit

You could do something like double the map size to increase the amount of blank space so you can be more than 20 tiles away from the station. Give it a cloaking device so you can't see the shuttle unless you're right next to it/wearing some special thing tied into the nuke suits. We could fill the shuttle with a million syndicate theme'd beepskys. You could make it invunerable!

There's a handful of ugly code solutions out there that technically work but remove the chance for fun when people actually fairly get to the shuttle.

There's other "doing this makes you a shitter" things in the game, like checking every radio channel on someone's headset in the hopes it's an uplink.

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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Arianya » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:06 pm #436050

Nabski wrote:18
8 EVA
Captain, Prototype (RD), HOS, CE, CMO
Two security suits, Two Engineer suits, 1 Atmos suit

You could do something like double the map size to increase the amount of blank space so you can be more than 20 tiles away from the station. Give it a cloaking device so you can't see the shuttle unless you're right next to it/wearing some special thing tied into the nuke suits. We could fill the shuttle with a million syndicate theme'd beepskys. You could make it invunerable!

There's a handful of ugly code solutions out there that technically work but remove the chance for fun when people actually fairly get to the shuttle.

There's other "doing this makes you a shitter" things in the game, like checking every radio channel on someone's headset in the hopes it's an uplink.


As far as I'm aware we utilize the maximum z-level size allowed for by the BYOND engine, so I don't believe there'd be any way to increase the map size.
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby WarbossLincoln » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:22 pm #436051

I still think giving the option of detonating the station self destruct terminal is a good idea. It could even cost TC. I don't know how much, but it could be an option for the OP leader's uplink to buy the SSD codes(and activate it, I assume that the SSD terminal won't blow up unless admins activate it so you can't put the nuke disk in and start entering codes and get lucky as a grey shit).

It might not be a bad idea to find a coder interested in overhauling nuke ops and create a big ideas thread. So many people suicide during war ops that it might be a good idea to get some brainstorming done and code up a new version of Ops.
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Arianya » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:24 pm #436052

WarbossLincoln wrote:I still think giving the option of detonating the station self destruct terminal is a good idea. It could even cost TC. I don't know how much, but it could be an option for the OP leader's uplink to buy the SSD codes(and activate it, I assume that the SSD terminal won't blow up unless admins activate it so you can't put the nuke disk in and start entering codes and get lucky as a grey shit).


The code defaults to "ADMIN", which obviously you can't input on a numeric keypad, so yes, its functionally deactivated.
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Nabski » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:26 pm #436053

Arianya wrote:
Spoiler:
Nabski wrote:18
8 EVA
Captain, Prototype (RD), HOS, CE, CMO
Two security suits, Two Engineer suits, 1 Atmos suit

You could do something like double the map size to increase the amount of blank space so you can be more than 20 tiles away from the station. Give it a cloaking device so you can't see the shuttle unless you're right next to it/wearing some special thing tied into the nuke suits. We could fill the shuttle with a million syndicate theme'd beepskys. You could make it invunerable!

There's a handful of ugly code solutions out there that technically work but remove the chance for fun when people actually fairly get to the shuttle.

There's other "doing this makes you a shitter" things in the game, like checking every radio channel on someone's headset in the hopes it's an uplink.


As far as I'm aware we utilize the maximum z-level size allowed for by the BYOND engine, so I don't believe there'd be any way to increase the map size.

BUT YOU COULD SPLIT THE STATION IN QUARTERS AND HAVE THEM AS OVERLAPPING ZZZZ LEVELZ!!! COMPLETELY WORTH IT.

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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Lazengann » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:35 pm #436055

Remove war ops and make the nuke start anchored and remove this policy

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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby MMMiracles » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:46 pm #436057

let the nuke ops use the on-station nuke if the main nuke is lost/off the z-level so bombing the shuttle doesn't completely fuck them out of their sole objective. go full-insanity and make it payday-tier where the vault alarm goes off as the syndicate spoofs a code for the on-station nuke or something for the ops to blow it.
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Anuv » Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:00 pm #436065

(Speaking as a non-coder) Could you make it so if the nuke falls off the z-level there's an automatic broadcast to the ops about it? Saying "The Syndicate have determined the nuclear payload has been lost. Here is the code to the station self-destruct: *****. Good luck."

At least I know if traitor targets leave the z-level on other servers it'd say that and give you another targets.
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby XDTM » Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:15 pm #436068

We could replace the nuke altogether with nuke beacons (kinda like the syndicate bomb beacon). Each op gets a remote, only one bomb can be summoned, and once summoned it obviously can't be unsummoned. Removes the part of gameplay where you have to keep your win condition unguarded.

As for bombing the shuttle/breaking the nav console i can see two solutions:
A) Remotely operated shuttle (sent back to base after deploying, called back when escaping)
B) Outright making the external walls bombproof and the door impenetrable if you don't have a syndicate id to open it.
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Screemonster » Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:36 pm #436070

Add a shuttle transponder item that allows the ops to dismiss/recall the shuttle, or a fuckin' cloaking device that literally makes the thing invisible or something

if you really wanted to be a dick to shuttlehunters have the cloaked shuttle have the same properties as a containment field (as in damage and throw away anyone or anything on an adjacent tile - your maxcap you just threw at it is now on its way back to you at high fucking speed and good luck BoH-bombing something that repels singularities) and have the turrets inactive while it's cloaked

Congratulations, now if the crew want to assault the shuttle they have to capture an op's gear somehow

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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Nabski » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:26 pm #436076

Screemonster wrote:Add a shuttle transponder item that allows the ops to dismiss/recall the shuttle, or a fuckin' cloaking device that literally makes the thing invisible or something

if you really wanted to be a dick to shuttlehunters have the cloaked shuttle have the same properties as a containment field (as in damage and throw away anyone or anything on an adjacent tile - your maxcap you just threw at it is now on its way back to you at high fucking speed and good luck BoH-bombing something that repels singularities) and have the turrets inactive while it's cloaked

Congratulations, now if the crew want to assault the shuttle they have to capture an op's gear somehow


That's not what Bags of Holding do anymore.

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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Cobby » Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:04 am #436149

From the person that literally has cheesed our most difficult AI i am quite surprise you have so much faith that AI turrets is a proper solution.
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:06 pm #438039

ops can still use the vault nuke if they are missing their nuke or beer nukes

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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby iksyp » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:18 pm #438075

imagine being a crewmember eating your daily dose of pen ink when you hear that the station is under attack by the syndicate and thinking "oh locating their way back home and possibly a way back to syndicate HQ as well as their staging point for this upcoming battle is a bad idea i'd rather just build bad defenses and die" or alternatively thinking "oh i bet they jetpacked here with an entire arsenal and nuclear bombs"

Arianya wrote:You see the shuttle "accidentally" while drifting around the station? Too bad, you didn't actually see it.
Putting one person on permanent guard duty is boring for the person who's there, and doesn't solve issues like the crew dropping maxcaps/welderbombing/etc

1. "oh i guess this giant fucking spaceshit that is SHOOTING BULLETS AT ME doesn't exist"
this mindset makes perfect sense as long as you don't think about it.
2. "waaah i got bombed by the crew"
yeah let's just let the nukes op ship be perfectly untouched instead of trying to damage them as much as possible.
Anuv wrote:-Nukes should be instantly replaced if stolen unfairly, no questions asked.
-Shuttle walls should be indestructible.

3. "my unguarded nuke got stolen wtf? mods???!?!"
if you leave your fucking ENDGAME unguarded ripe for the picking of any sensible crew member to instantly ruin your round you are dumb and deserve to lose. it's not unfair, it's being outplayed.
4. "my stationary ship got bombed this is stupid, mods??"
you don't even need the ship to win but also
if you never move your ship the entire round and it gets blown up then that's on you for making it an easy target
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Dr_bee » Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:01 pm #438107

Hey, consider adding an advanced camera console to the infiltrator, that way you can have an op run overwatch on the ship so they arent just sitting there guarding it. It wouldnt be much different from a nuke ops round when the lavaland base spawns and would solve this problem with a gameplay change and not a policy change.

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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Ayy Lemoh » Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:04 pm #438108

iksyp wrote:1. "oh i guess this giant fucking spaceshit that is SHOOTING BULLETS AT ME doesn't exist"

2. "waaah i got bombed by the crew"

3. "my unguarded nuke got stolen wtf? mods???!?!"
if you leave your fucking ENDGAME unguarded ripe for the picking of any sensible crew member to instantly ruin your round you are dumb and deserve to lose. it's not unfair, it's being outplayed.
4. "my stationary ship got bombed this is stupid, mods??"

1. Depends. If all of us agreed that Nuke Ops require a 'no metagaming rule' then if you're inside the station and something just fucking randomly shoots at your window or you can literally see the turret while in the station then it clearly fucking exists.

2. seeing the nuke op shuttle bombed is honestly fun imo. No comment on this.

3. Where the fuck are you supposed to place it then? Nuke Ops don't get a button where they choose a wall to hide their nuke at so the nuke doesn't drift off. They don't get metasense where they know which side of the map is closest to a space ruin. The worst part is that, from what I remember, there is a fucking exploit/bug in my opinion which some people don't even consider a fucking bug and say that it is completely fair to just be able to waltz in and not get attacked by any turrets at all. Maybe that was fixed though however if the nuke is stolen in a way that is basically borderline exploiting then they shouldn't get fucked.

4. You're right however only five people have mastered this skill. Even fewer have mastered using this skill while confidently thinking to themselves 'yeah no other ops died and their headset isn't stolen/no one found a syndicate headset/no one can hear me say THE SHIP IS NORTHWESTEAST and just maxcap it.' You don't get a beacon on the nuke op shuttle so you know where it is even if someone griefs it so either you better fucking pay attention to chat or be lucky. The first choice of 'paying attention' sounds easy until you consider how fucking stressful it is for the people who don't play nuke op in the most powergaming way possible.

however the solution will sadly always be 'git gud' and nothing will change that besides pulling a fucking blood cult where only blood cultists nuke ops can track nar'sie's target the shuttle.

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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby iksyp » Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:15 pm #438130

Ayy Lemoh wrote:
iksyp wrote:really mean and insensitive quotes that make people feel bad

1. Depends. If all of us agreed that Nuke Ops require a 'no metagaming rule' then if you're inside the station and something just fucking randomly shoots at your window or you can literally see the turret while in the station then it clearly fucking exists.

3. Where the fuck are you supposed to place it then? Nuke Ops don't get a button where they choose a wall to hide their nuke at so the nuke doesn't drift off. They don't get metasense where they know which side of the map is closest to a space ruin. The worst part is that, from what I remember, there is a fucking exploit/bug in my opinion which some people don't even consider a fucking bug and say that it is completely fair to just be able to waltz in and not get attacked by any turrets at all. Maybe that was fixed though however if the nuke is stolen in a way that is basically borderline exploiting then they shouldn't get fucked.

4. You're right however only five people have mastered this skill. Even fewer have mastered using this skill while confidently thinking to themselves 'yeah no other ops died and their headset isn't stolen/no one found a syndicate headset/no one can hear me say THE SHIP IS NORTHWESTEAST and just maxcap it.' You don't get a beacon on the nuke op shuttle so you know where it is even if someone griefs it so either you better fucking pay attention to chat or be lucky. The first choice of 'paying attention' sounds easy until you consider how fucking stressful it is for the people who don't play nuke op in the most powergaming way possible.


1. was more referring to some guy goes out for space exploration but then gets shot at by the ship and he's not supposed to know it's there
3. if only there was a giant shady area of the station purposefully in disrepair for hiding things with hidden rooms and mazelike pathways, then maybe my point would be valid i guess.
4. if you're worried about people stealing an ops headset to listen in on your comms, there's a solution: spend 3 tc on a book. as for keeping your ship mobile, set off the nuke and then follow your pinpointer or gi-
Ayy Lemoh wrote:however the solution will sadly always be 'git gud' and nothing will change that besides pulling a fucking blood cult where only blood cultists nuke ops can track nar'sie's target the shuttle.

yeah it's kind of a 5vStation asymmetrical deathmatch at best so learning to 'git gud' is a bit important if you want to greentext
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby somerandomguy » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:10 pm #438322

Stationloving is a component iirc so just slap it on the nuke and add a pinpointer mode that tracks it if you have the disk

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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby leibniz » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:32 pm #438327

iksyp wrote:


do you honestly think you can hide the nuke in maint in highpop? in war?
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby iksyp » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:44 pm #438347

leibniz wrote:
iksyp wrote:


do you honestly think you can hide the nuke in maint in highpop? in war?

yes
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Re: War ops and shuttle hunting

Postby Pizzatiger » Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:41 am #438381

iksyp wrote:
leibniz wrote:
iksyp wrote:


do you honestly think you can hide the nuke in maint in highpop? in war?

yes


The nuke would NEVER be safe. There would be like 5 guys running around space looking for the shuttle to steal the nuke that way and then there would be another 20 guys combing maintenance for the nuke. There is only so many places you can hide the nuke in maintenance.

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