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Deleting feedback in admin feedback threads
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:07 am
by oranges
If we're going to pick and choose what feedback we keep around, why even have the threads, especially on such specious reasoning as "the complaint was withdrawn" when the withdrawal was posted in the same thread, a post later. It should stand as a record of what someone thought (due to miscommunication or not) and then their subsequent ability to modify their opinion.
There's no reason there to delete all the feedback and irregardless of the intent it was made in, it just looks like you're supressing feedback.
We should leave history like this alone, I don't run around demanding that people remove all the random shitposts in my feedback cause I accept that it's an outcome of how people thought at the time and should stand as a record of that, even the goof/swarge epic admin conspiracy posting that MSO deleted, and tonto's, you agreed with me one time now let me praise you feedback, and I appreciate that shitposting is a different issue, but the situation in elyina's thread was in no way shitposting.
These are living histories of people's view at a specific time and altering it just reduces transparency, any admin asking to have actual feedback posts removed should be scrutinized very closely.
smh, come on
Re: Deleting feedback in admin feedback threads
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:24 am
by Arianya
I'm certainly not encouraging picking and choosing feedback, and you'll note that feedback from back in 2014 was indeed left, so I hardly think it's fair to say that the intent was to "delete all the feedback" or suppress it.
Regardless, withdrawn or not, the feedback was specifically on a topic that was the purview of Elyina's former role as a forum administrator, not their role as a game administrator. That alone would have probably moved me to remove it if it had been posted today.
Personal opinion follows:
Ultimately, Feedback is a tool primarily for two people, the admin who is being given feedback and the headmins who monitor the admin. As the posts were deleted as opposed to move into the trash, they'll remain visible to these two groups, including if it somehow becomes an issue in the future.
The main "pro" in deleting it in my view is that it doesn't prejudice people's opinion against the administrator for something that was noted 4 years ago and was in and of itself retracted.
I agree we should lean on the side of caution when it comes to deleting things however, and I would certainly disagree with anyone who asked for legitimate feedback to be removed, but in this instance I felt that the feedback was:
a) Not valid feedback for a game administrator as the actions in question were "wearing a different hat"
b) Retracted long ago
Re: Deleting feedback in admin feedback threads
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:28 am
by oranges
I don't see how it could not be valid feedback, the person in question believed that they were suppressing feedback on their behaviour as a game admin, if it turned out to be true that definitely want to be something I could see as a player when deciding how I felt about an admin. They didn't delete the posts themselves, so surely it falls under the purview of their actions as a game admin, rather than forum administrivia, as you're claiming here.
I disagree that feedback is a tool for admins and headadmins only, It's a good place for a player to go to register their discontent with an admins behavior, even if they haven't been able to have action on that in any more concrete way via a complaint or headadmin action.
It's also a good place for new players to get a handle on how an admin might behave when confronted with a situation and we shouldn't discount the value of these two outcomes, one as a pressure valve for releasing rage, and the other for allowing new comers to get a handle on the admin team, and form their own conclusions about who is good or bad.
As to the age argument, we don't delete old notes either, just make them less visible, surely the players can expect a little quid pro quo there, and I definitely want to see how someone's feedback thread has evolved over time, so I can get a handle on how this person has changed or reacted to player feedback.
Regarding the "delete all feedback" that's poor choice of wording on my part, I meant in relation to the particular complaint the person had, since the chain and all it's replies were deleted.
You do have to see the concern about deleting a complaint about someone having feedback deleted in their thread right? It brings up all sorts of concerns about someone who hasn't reflected on the original feedback and changed their behaviour at all and that's what makes the living history of admin feedback threads so valuable.
Re: Deleting feedback in admin feedback threads
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:23 pm
by Atlanta-Ned
The only feedback that should be deleted is the kind that gets left after someone’s admin complaint is denied. Fuck those people.
Re: Deleting feedback in admin feedback threads
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:13 pm
by BeeSting12
I'm confused as to why you found it necessary to delete four year old feedback.
Re: Deleting feedback in admin feedback threads
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:44 pm
by TribeOfBeavers
BeeSting12 wrote:I'm confused as to why you found it necessary to delete four year old feedback.
Elinya asked about it a few times and I didnt particularly care as it had specifically been said to be withdrawn by the person who said it 4 years ago. I didnt realize this would be such a controversial issue tbh as we've had people withdraw/delete posts before.
While I agree with oranges that old feedback shouldnt be deleted (the other one was left), I dont have a problem with people withdrawing/deleting their own feedback if they feel what they said was inaccurate or misinformed.
That said im not particularly passionate about this issue and if peope feel as though feelback should
never be deleted im willing to hear them out. I would, however, like to hear from more people than just oranges to get their opinions.
I suppose a compromise might be to have a mod or poster edit their post to strikethrough or otherwise indicate the feedback isnt accurate and give a brief explanation as to why.
Also because I feel like being a bit argumentative/nitpicky:
Re: Deleting feedback in admin feedback threads
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:47 pm
by Qbmax32
Atlanta-Ned wrote:The only feedback that should be deleted is the kind that gets left after someone’s admin complaint is denied. Fuck those people.
Re: Deleting feedback in admin feedback threads
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:55 pm
by Lazengann
I agree with oranges. I apologize for not having much to add, but oranges has a better mastery on language than me and states things better than I would have.
Re: Deleting feedback in admin feedback threads
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:05 pm
by BeeSting12
Feedback should always stay there unless it's an obvious shitpost. As oranges said, it's a record of what that person thought at the time. If they (the poster) specifically request for their post to be deleted then let it be deleted, but other than that leave it be.
I'm also not a fan of admins asking for their feedback to get deleted and then it just happening. I have some negative feedback in my thread, I'm sure others do, and I don't think anyone's asked for it to be deleted. It's that player's opinion and you should refute it in the thread instead of just having it deleted.
Re: Deleting feedback in admin feedback threads
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:27 pm
by TribeOfBeavers
So evidently the general consensus is that we shouldnt remove that kind of thing upon request in the future, and thats fine. If anyone has a differing opinion feel free to post it though.
Unless someone has some arguments otherwise the posts will likely be readded in a little while.
However, to change the topic slightly so we dont run into similar problems:
What do you all feel should be allowed to be deleted from a feedback thread upon request, if anything?
Is it okay to remove cases of mistaken identity or similar? Or should those left with other posts hopefully disproving/providing context?
Should any moderation be done at all in these threads?(except like removing bot spam or whatever) Or should even the obvious shitposts remain as they provide a little insight into what people think?
Re: Deleting feedback in admin feedback threads
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:32 pm
by Lazengann
Removing posts trying to sell shoes with bad english would be fine
Re: Deleting feedback in admin feedback threads
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:58 pm
by Cobby
Just don’t touch posts there barring violations of normal forum rules.
I’d rather bad posts get in due to undermoderation than perfectly fine posts get removed due to overmoderation. You can defend stupid posts like my thread where yakumo thought I did something another mod did.
Re: Deleting feedback in admin feedback threads
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:41 pm
by Dax Dupont
Qbmax32 wrote:Atlanta-Ned wrote:The only feedback that should be deleted is the kind that gets left after someone’s admin complaint is denied. Fuck those people.
This, it's annoying to have someone crying in 3 different threads over something that was ruled to be legit.
Re: Deleting feedback in admin feedback threads
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:36 pm
by Cobby
Even if something is ruled to be legit you should still be able to say you didn't like how it was handled.
likewise if you think a complaint was handled understandably by the admin you should post good things about the individual in feedback too.
That said, people using the platform to do a second version of their ban appeal and/or complaint should be handled accordingly.
Re: Deleting feedback in admin feedback threads
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:47 pm
by subject217
yeah I'll just wait for someone who leaves valid feedback to exit the community so I can say it was baseless and they can't defend it
the kind of person who would seriously consider 4 year old feedback with no other context is what's in the wrong here not the feedback itself.
Re: Deleting feedback in admin feedback threads
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:53 pm
by kevinz000
feedback should only be deleted if it's obvious shitpost.
otherwise just post again with the justification (and call the fuck out like the dumbass they are if they decided to do it after their complaint was denied) and hope players are smart enough to not just read the bad reviews instead of considering the whole pictures.
Re: Deleting feedback in admin feedback threads
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:10 pm
by iamgoofball
Dax Dupont wrote:Qbmax32 wrote:Atlanta-Ned wrote:The only feedback that should be deleted is the kind that gets left after someone’s admin complaint is denied. Fuck those people.
This, it's annoying to have someone crying in 3 different threads over something that was ruled to be legit.
Tough shit, it's still their feedback.
Re: Deleting feedback in admin feedback threads
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:20 pm
by subject217
if someone throws a hissy fit because their ban appeal/admin complaint/what have you got denied literally all you have to do is respond clarifying that and then nobody will ever take that feedback seriously
Re: Deleting feedback in admin feedback threads
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:29 pm
by oranges
TribeOfBeavers wrote:
Also because I feel like being a bit argumentative/nitpicky:
Re: old notes
We absolutely delete old notes, just because you can technically view them doesnt mean they aren't effectively deleted as they arent visible or used in administrative decisions. In addition its the same situation as here. The feedback is there, just "less visible", as you say.
They're not gone, and they are definitely used in administrative decisions, how many times have we all said "they have x overall number of notes" when considering the punishment for someone. It's disingenuous to act like they still don’t' have impact, even on a lesser scale, we don't delete them because we know they can be used as a record of a players change in style/character over time and we recognise that it has value. Exact same reasoning can be applied around for admin feedback.
I have no problem with changing the display of the threads to highlight the feedback that is fresh and relevant, but deleting old feedback just because of limitations of the display medium is unacceptable to me.
Re: Deleting feedback in admin feedback threads
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:07 pm
by TribeOfBeavers
oranges wrote:TribeOfBeavers wrote:
Also because I feel like being a bit argumentative/nitpicky:
Re: old notes
We absolutely delete old notes, just because you can technically view them doesnt mean they aren't effectively deleted as they arent visible or used in administrative decisions. In addition its the same situation as here. The feedback is there, just "less visible", as you say.
They're not gone, and they are definitely used in administrative decisions, how many times have we all said "they have x overall number of notes" when considering the punishment for someone. It's disingenuous to act like they still don’t' have impact, even on a lesser scale, we don't delete them because we know they can be used as a record of a players change in style/character over time and we recognise that it has value. Exact same reasoning can be applied around for admin feedback.
I have no problem with changing the display of the threads to highlight the feedback that is fresh and relevant, but deleting old feedback just because of limitations of the display medium is unacceptable to me.
They /are/ gone. MSO updated the db such that deleted notes are not visible without viewing the db directly (not something doable by admins, just MSO). I wasn't referring to faded notes but ones that were specifically deleted and can't be viewed.
Annnyway as nobody protested I undeleted the posts in Elinya's thread.
Re: Deleting feedback in admin feedback threads
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:01 am
by bandit
at least you get feedback t_t
Re: Deleting feedback in admin feedback threads
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:33 am
by Atlanta-Ned
TribeOfBeavers wrote:
They /are/ gone. MSO updated the db such that deleted notes are not visible without viewing the db directly (not something doable by admins, just MSO). I wasn't referring to faded notes but ones that were specifically deleted and can't be viewed.
For the sake of disclosure I can view deleted notes directly from the DB as well #statbus
Re: Deleting feedback in admin feedback threads
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:10 am
by Shezza
My feedback about lazengann has been removed
I can't recall the actual thing i posted but it was something along the lines off
"Not letting 4 year old things go is pretty despicable behavior."
Its pretty funny how he gets upset about someones feedback being removed and gets his own feedback removed.
It even seems that lazengann agrees its kind of shit to remove feedback thats not a obvious shitpost.
Lazengann wrote:I agree with oranges. I apologize for not having much to add, but oranges has a better mastery on language than me and states things better than I would have.
Re: Deleting feedback in admin feedback threads
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:01 pm
by Lazengann
I didn't see your post until just now when it had already been undeleted. I would have undeleted it myself if I had, your feedback was fair because most people would miss the context of it without seeing the adminbus drama.
Re: Deleting feedback in admin feedback threads
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:23 pm
by Cobby
Shezza wrote:
My feedback about lazengann has been removed
I can't recall the actual thing i posted but it was something along the lines off
"Not letting 4 year old things go is pretty despicable behavior."
Its pretty funny how he gets upset about someones feedback being removed and gets his own feedback removed.
It even seems that lazengann agrees its kind of shit to remove feedback thats not a obvious shitpost.
Lazengann wrote:I agree with oranges. I apologize for not having much to add, but oranges has a better mastery on language than me and states things better than I would have.
Someone moderating that section != someone asked for your feedback to be removed.
Re: Deleting feedback in admin feedback threads
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:07 pm
by obscolene
>someone calls me a faggot
>4 years later, someone else sees it
>that person now thinks i am a faggot because someone said it 4 years ago
>be under the realization that if your opinion is able to be swayed that easily then your opinion holds no value to begin with
>go on with my life unburdened
Re: Deleting feedback in admin feedback threads
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:08 pm
by CitrusGender
you can never win by deleting posts
you only add further fuel to the fire and then people start to doubt your intentions
Re: Deleting feedback in admin feedback threads
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:28 pm
by PKPenguin321
Shezza wrote:
My feedback about lazengann has been removed
I can't recall the actual thing i posted but it was something along the lines off
"Not letting 4 year old things go is pretty despicable behavior."
Its pretty funny how he gets upset about someones feedback being removed and gets his own feedback removed.
It even seems that lazengann agrees its kind of shit to remove feedback thats not a obvious shitpost.
Lazengann wrote:I agree with oranges. I apologize for not having much to add, but oranges has a better mastery on language than me and states things better than I would have.
Did this on my own accord, lazengann had no hand in it.
Posting about drama without context in for the most part unrelated feedback threads like that out of spite or to try and prove some kind of point is a shitty thing to do. Is it not possible to keep your bullshit to one or two threads?
That said, a headadmin has since undeleted it, and I agree with that. I think it's better to respond to the post within the thread to add context to it. On the other hand, if you're going to look at it being deleted in the first place as "WOW LAZENGANN SUCH A HYPOCRITE HAHAHAHA LOL EPIC" when he didn't even have a hand in it and it was deleted for entirely unrelated reasons (preventing you from spreading stupid drama bullshit to the entire forum), you can fuck off.