Rule 8 Clarification

[High Impact Dolphin]

that title does not have a good look to it

anyway, i was just given a warning for sending a sexual joke copypasta (this one*) across the stations, and it kind of surprised me as i had made similar jokes before over cap announcement without ever running into trouble for it. i'm not here to ask about why this specific warning was given (i know damn well) but i'd like some clarification on how exactly rule 8 is supposed to be interpreted

specifically, i'm looking at the terms "stuff" and "things" in the rule, as it is stated below

Erotic/creepy stuff is not allowed.
No form of erotic roleplay is allowed on the servers, including things that could be construed as sexual by unwilling participants.

so erotic "stuff" is banned, as is reasonable, but the below statement says that erotic roleplay specifically is disallowed, and then that "things" that could be sexual are also banned. based on the wording alone, it is difficult to determine the lines of this rule past its base intention of disallowing erp. sexual jokes are enjoyed and employed by a good chunk of the playerbase, with woody got wood being one of the most common running jokes on the server, the classic lusty xenomorph maid, hell, there's a joke link about the banning of such jokes on the homepage as i write this. the inconsistent wording of the rule itself creates a burden on the player's part to determine what is acceptable at any time. we've had a semirecent issue about this in wesoda's "cry rape" ban** with admins having minor disagreements on how the situation was handled and how the rule should have been considered over what was quite clearly a joke. this should be a non-issue, we allow blatant racist humor but have to tiptoe around anything of a sexual nature.

this is getting longer than i meant it to be so i'll sum it up with this: can i get a definition of "stuff" and "things" as used in rule 8? what are the lines between humor and harassment?

ps i hope this doesnt come across as a policy complaint or anything, i meant to just bring up my concern and clear up the rule so i can avoid getting bwoinked about it in the future

*

NSFW:

snnnnniiiiiiffffffffffff...oh yes my dear....sssnnnnnnnnnnnniiiiiiiiffffffff....quite pungent indeed...is that....dare I say....sssssssnniff...eggs I smell?......sniff sniff....hmmm...yes...quite so my darling....sniff....quite pungent eggs yes very much so .....ssssssssssssssnnnnnnnnnnnnnnniiiiiiiffffff....ah yes...and also....a hint of....sniff....cheese.....quite wet my dear....sniff...but of yes...this will do nicely....sniff.....please my dear....another if you please....nice a big now....

**

Spoiler:

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... da#p425549

[Arianya]

Disclaimer: This isn't a ruling, but rather my own view. I'd prefer to let others add their own views before making a decision with the other headmins.

There is no clean way to give the clarity you seek, since Rule 8 is meant to cover a huge range of stuff and emphasizing the specifics of "stuff"/"things" would a) become a really weird fetish list b) would become a easy tool for line toeing.

I do appreciate you point of view. It's confusing and frustrating when you do something three times and its only on the third instance that you get warned about it, or when you see others getting away with stuff that you know you've been warned over.

WGW holds a weird, somewhat unique place in our community, and I feel it shouldn't be used as a benchmark for what is or isn't allowed under rule 8, especially since most common usages of WGW either only make use of the earliest lines (which are relatively tame) or are one huge copypasta block.

I think the key part of rule 8, which we can emphasize is this:

Erotic/creepy stuff is not allowed.
No form of erotic roleplay is allowed on the servers, including things that could be construed as sexual by unwilling participants.

(Emphasis mine)

If you're being bantering in a risque manner with your friend, it's pretty much whatever (but don't ERP). If you're involving random people in your risque mannerisms then it starts to become an issue, especially when they may not like or want such, it's best to lean on the side of caution.

I think I'm correct in saying most admins wouldn't have even noticed/cared if you had sent this to someone you know/a friend's PDA and you both had a guffaw about it, but sending it to the whole station is more questionable.

[oranges]

rule 8 a shit

[BeeSting12]

appeal that if you got a note. we allow WGW and other erotic stories to be read but not that barely sexual copypasta? come on. if anything itd be a warning for copypasta on comms or whatever

[Cobby]

I think in general we’re too heavy handed on it.

It should only enter admin territory if

1 - You’re actually emoting sex acts
2 - You’ve repeatedly targeted a player with sexual implications to the point they ahelp
3 - You habitually make lewd comments throughout several rounds to the point where you gain an ooc reputation on it

2/3 should be handled with initial warnings with only 1 being an out of gate ban (generally speaking).

Otherwise you lie to the admin and say you’re just reciting erotica so you won’t get banned :^)

[wesoda25]

To clarify I got unbanned really quick, and also got a note appeal. I don’t think? Any other admins aside from Nabski have enforced rule 8 like this, which he has now stopped. So I guess you can scream rape all day if thats your thing.

[BeeSting12]

I think in general we’re too heavy handed on it.

It should only enter admin territory if

1 - You’re actually emoting sex acts
2 - You’ve repeatedly targeted a player with sexual implications to the point they ahelp
3 - You habitually make lewd comments throughout several rounds to the point where you gain an ooc reputation on it

2/3 should be handled with initial warnings with only 1 being an out of gate ban (generally speaking).

Otherwise you lie to the admin and say you’re just reciting erotica so you won’t get banned :^)

Yeah this

[Shezza]

>3 - You habitually make lewd comments throughout several rounds to the point where you gain an ooc reputation on it

i did this for months and was never warned for it, most people found it funny.

[High Impact Dolphin]

...Rule 8 is meant to cover a huge range of stuff and emphasizing the specifics of "stuff"/"things" would a) become a really weird fetish list...

do you mean that fetishistic actions as a whole are covered under rule 8? if that's the case, then what constitutes fetish from gameplay? snuff is a fetish, yet we wouldn't restrict killings (valid obv). the wiki suggests a clown prank of stealing assistant's shoes right off of them, i don't think i need to expand on that one. at what point or in what context is the fetish line crossed?

...b) would become a easy tool for line toeing.

this is already covered under rule 9, is it not?

If you regularly come close to breaking the rules without actually breaking them, it will be treated as the rules being broken.
Repeated instances of the same rules being broken may be met with harsher consequences. Baiting people into situations where you can report them to admins will be dealt with harshly.

again, im not trying to argue especially since you haven't made a ruling yet, just looking for as much clarity as possible

appeal that if you got a note. we allow WGW and other erotic stories to be read but not that barely sexual copypasta? come on.

if you think its within reason ill make the appeal after this thread comes to a conclusion

[PKPenguin321]

>3 - You habitually make lewd comments throughout several rounds to the point where you gain an ooc reputation on it

i did this for months and was never warned for it, most people found it funny.

t. player who was banned for unwanted ERP

[Cobby]

>3 - You habitually make lewd comments throughout several rounds to the point where you gain an ooc reputation on it

i did this for months and was never warned for it, most people found it funny.

I think your ban was 2 + history of being a perceived shitler. Someone can correct if incorrect

[PKPenguin321]

>3 - You habitually make lewd comments throughout several rounds to the point where you gain an ooc reputation on it

i did this for months and was never warned for it, most people found it funny.

I think your ban was 2 + history of being a perceived shitler. Someone can correct if incorrect

it was almost entirely a rule 8 ban for creepy unwanted ERP with a dash of "rule 0 get out forever"

[Shezza]

>3 - You habitually make lewd comments throughout several rounds to the point where you gain an ooc reputation on it

i did this for months and was never warned for it, most people found it funny.

t. player who was banned for unwanted ERP

>unwanted

[2018-09-08 16:33:48.155] SAY: 16:33:48.155] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Lucie Bellerose) "you tried to touch me with that thick baton of yours" (Brig (197, 136, 2))
[2018-09-08 16:33:54.175] SAY: 16:33:54.175] SAY: Wilchen/(Sherrie Williams) "like this?" (Brig (197, 137, 2))
[2018-09-08 16:33:57.805] EMOTE: 16:33:57.805] EMOTE: Eskjjlj/(Lucie Bellerose) moans! (Brig (197, 136, 2))
[2018-09-08 16:34:01.558] SAY: 16:34:01.558] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Lucie Bellerose) "p-please no!" (Brig (197, 136, 2))
[2018-09-08 16:34:09.688] SAY: 16:34:09.688] SAY: Wilchen/(Sherrie Williams) "you like that" (Brig (197, 137, 2))
[2018-09-08 16:34:10.931] SAY: 16:34:10.931] SAY: Wilchen/(Sherrie Williams) "don't you" (Brig (197, 137, 2))(edited)
[2018-09-08 16:34:13.144] SAY: 16:34:13.144] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Lucie Bellerose) "S-Sherrie n-not here!" (Brig (197, 136, 2))
[2018-09-08 16:34:23.735] SAY: 16:34:23.735] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Lucie Bellerose) "N-no I-I d-don't!!" (Brig (197, 136, 2))
[2018-09-08 16:34:32.331] SAY: 16:34:32.331] SAY: Wilchen/(Sherrie Williams) "what if i turn it on" (Brig (197, 137, 2))
[2018-09-08 16:34:33.174] SAY: 16:34:33.174] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Lucie Bellerose) "I d-don't like t-that at all!!" (Brig (197, 136, 2))(edited)
[2018-09-08 16:34:34.496] EMOTE: 16:34:34.496] EMOTE: Eskjjlj/(Lucie Bellerose) moans! (Brig (197, 136, 2))
[2018-09-08 16:34:49.725] EMOTE: 16:34:49.725] EMOTE: Eskjjlj/(Lucie Bellerose) moans! (Brig (197, 136, 2))

[Nilons]

ITT: we find out where the line is so degenerates can toe it

[iamgoofball]

if you have to ask what is/isnt ERP, you've broken the law

[bandit]

For transparency's sake (and because it isn't a secret note) a note was left by kangdar:

Warned - Sent smut over the comms to allied stations, claims he's done this before and was never called out about it. Seemed apologetic about it.

Personally I would PM someone with a "cut it out" type message, but would not leave a note for something of this level.

[BeeSting12]

It's probably more for the spam than the content, but I'd have to ask Kang.

edit: This is also probably super confusing because players regularly see this type of spam/copypasta IC and not all admins punish for it- I only really do it if it gets excessive.

[Cobby]

Puzzle smite

[iamgoofball]

>3 - You habitually make lewd comments throughout several rounds to the point where you gain an ooc reputation on it

i did this for months and was never warned for it, most people found it funny.

t. player who was banned for unwanted ERP

>unwanted

[2018-09-08 16:33:48.155] SAY: 16:33:48.155] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Lucie Bellerose) "you tried to touch me with that thick baton of yours" (Brig (197, 136, 2))
[2018-09-08 16:33:54.175] SAY: 16:33:54.175] SAY: Wilchen/(Sherrie Williams) "like this?" (Brig (197, 137, 2))
[2018-09-08 16:33:57.805] EMOTE: 16:33:57.805] EMOTE: Eskjjlj/(Lucie Bellerose) moans! (Brig (197, 136, 2))
[2018-09-08 16:34:01.558] SAY: 16:34:01.558] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Lucie Bellerose) "p-please no!" (Brig (197, 136, 2))
[2018-09-08 16:34:09.688] SAY: 16:34:09.688] SAY: Wilchen/(Sherrie Williams) "you like that" (Brig (197, 137, 2))
[2018-09-08 16:34:10.931] SAY: 16:34:10.931] SAY: Wilchen/(Sherrie Williams) "don't you" (Brig (197, 137, 2))(edited)
[2018-09-08 16:34:13.144] SAY: 16:34:13.144] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Lucie Bellerose) "S-Sherrie n-not here!" (Brig (197, 136, 2))
[2018-09-08 16:34:23.735] SAY: 16:34:23.735] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Lucie Bellerose) "N-no I-I d-don't!!" (Brig (197, 136, 2))
[2018-09-08 16:34:32.331] SAY: 16:34:32.331] SAY: Wilchen/(Sherrie Williams) "what if i turn it on" (Brig (197, 137, 2))
[2018-09-08 16:34:33.174] SAY: 16:34:33.174] SAY: Eskjjlj/(Lucie Bellerose) "I d-don't like t-that at all!!" (Brig (197, 136, 2))(edited)
[2018-09-08 16:34:34.496] EMOTE: 16:34:34.496] EMOTE: Eskjjlj/(Lucie Bellerose) moans! (Brig (197, 136, 2))
[2018-09-08 16:34:49.725] EMOTE: 16:34:49.725] EMOTE: Eskjjlj/(Lucie Bellerose) moans! (Brig (197, 136, 2))

what the absolute fuck is this, both of you need to stay gone forever

[High Impact Dolphin]

Personally I would PM someone with a "cut it out" type message, but would not leave a note for something of this level.

i was actually told i couldve been permabanned for it and it seemed to be implied that the reason i wasnt is because i regretted it in ahelps and this was a first offense
i would grab logs but i think ahelps are private so there's nothing i can grab

[Kangtut]

Personally I would PM someone with a "cut it out" type message, but would not leave a note for something of this level.

i was actually told i couldve been permabanned for it and it seemed to be implied that the reason i wasnt is because i regretted it in ahelps and this was a first offense
i would grab logs but i think ahelps are private so there's nothing i can grab

If I did say you could be perma'd for it I was most likely referring to another time I saw you and another player about to ERP. Although from what I saw at the time it could be argued that you were in the middle of a session before the instigator either realized it was wrong or thought someone might be watching. I decided to leave that alone because I assumed it would be a one time thing even though I should have said something at the time. This was also part of the reason I gave you the note this time. Because I felt you were going to keep smut posting/doing erotic shit.

[Nervere]

Some admins have been ruling poorly with rule 8, so I’m going to set this in stone.
Rule 8 is only for cases of ERP and, for some cases, targeted sexual harassment. Cobby’s third point about gaining an OOC reputation “for making lewd comments” has some merit, because historically people who have been excessively creepy have faced punishment, but punishments for such a thing should be applied in only the most extreme of cases. There’s always going to be special exceptions, but this is really the extent of what rule 8 covers.

As for what happened with you, I probably would’ve just smited you for making a stupid, gross post as a Central Command message. It’s not something that falls under this rule.