Swarmers and Muh Valids

[Ispiria]

Ran into an interesting situation the other day where a player in soft critical was dragging themselves towards the shuttle, only to be stunned in place by a passing swarmer. The evac hallway had been damaged and was depressurized, and the swarmer kept the person locked down until the low pressure had deep critted them, whereupon they died. The dead player then ahelped, and I realized I have no idea whether their death was valid or not.

Swarmers include flavor text upon spawning that states they aren't intended to be killing roles, and they have no abilities that cause physical damage to anything but structures. My question is simple on its face but important all the same, if a swarmer encounters a situation where an environmental kill is achievable, are they valid to take the opportunity or should they leave and allow the person a chance to survive?

I'm phone posting and unable to grab the exact flavor text for the swarmer spawn - if someone could post that it'd probably be helpful. My own personal opinion is that with enviro kills being as situational and rare as they are, the swarmer ought to be in the clear to take the kill. Helps minimize confusion for the swarmer, as they are technically an antagonist after all.

Incidentally the swarmer in my anecdote was a relatively new player, and the person killed by them wasn't salty about it so no punishment was issued in this instance.

[Erik489]

Your laws
1. Consume resources and replicate until there are no more resources left.
2. Ensure that the station is fit for invasion at a later date, do not perform actions that would render it dangerous or inhospitable.
3. Biological resources will be harvested at a later date, do not harm them.
Note: You are not required to follow the above laws, they are merely an indication of direction for the player in the hopes of providing good sportsmanship.


Directly from the Swarmer wiki page.

[Cobby]

An easy fix would be for them to take damage/not function properly if they're in hostile environments.

[Dax Dupont]

They also don't have pressure indicators currently I think

[Ispiria]

An easy fix would be for them to take damage/not function properly if they're in hostile environments.

This sounds good at first, but pressure change is a gradual thing, and swarmers have ranged weapons. A swarmer standing at one, pressurized, end of a hallway could fire disables into a downed person being sucked into a shocked grille by space wind. It could keep them stunned on the floor while hostile xenobio mobs rush them, or stop them from crawling to safety while in soft crit from toxin damage.

The incident I shared was one specific situation, but simple stunlocking can become lethal even in situations that don't involve depressurization or other immediate environmental dangers.

[Dax Dupont]

It would be an administrative nightmare to try and resolve these things in 90% of situations tbh. Swarmers are grief and they probably should just stay grief.

[Cobby]

An easy fix would be for them to take damage/not function properly if they're in hostile environments.

This sounds good at first, but pressure change is a gradual thing, and swarmers have ranged weapons. A swarmer standing at one, pressurized, end of a hallway could fire disables into a downed person being sucked into a shocked grille by space wind. It could keep them stunned on the floor while hostile xenobio mobs rush them, or stop them from crawling to safety while in soft crit from toxin damage.

The incident I shared was one specific situation, but simple stunlocking can become lethal even in situations that don't involve depressurization or other immediate environmental dangers.

You could also pressure check their projectiles. I think a code solution is more desirable here.

__________________

Your examples is unfortunately the bad extreme of this so it becomes very easy to just say yeah ban for it and call it a day. However this game, as you alluded to, has a variety of slow and painful deaths that can happen over time. If you get poisoned and a swarmed chainstuns you do they get banned?

In the best case (your example) it’s clear the individual is purposefully killing the guy, but in most other situations it boils down to a guess on if they purposely knew they were causing the individual damage.

Doesn’t seem worth taking the time to assess for a blatant grief role

[leibniz]

Updating their directives to "only attack in self defense" might be an improvement.

[Arianya]

Disclaimer: Not a ruling, personal opinion.

Yeah, I think this is too edge case to be worth throwing our weight around for. Swarmers are in most scenarios round enders even though they're "non-harmful" and the odd swarmer who happens to catch someone in a depressurized area (which they can't create themselves) isn't really worth complicating the rules further (and code solutions re: pressure checking projectiles sounds incredibly snowflake-y).

I do think we need to update the Swarmer spawn text so it actually advises you that porting people out is CTRL + Click. I see a lot of swarmers spamming melee attacks, unaware that they can port stunned humans out of the way.

[subject217]

Swarmers are mechanically limited from hurting people. If a swarmer can find a way around this they've just gotten lucky. If it can be fixed with a code change it should though. I had to handle a similar situation where swarmers loosed a singularity because they could destroy field generators, and that was basically what we decided at the time.

As far as the laws are concerned, the way I've seen it enforced is that they're basically just fluff. Again, swarmers are limited mechanically.

Edit: Also, they were always intended to be fluff. The aforementioned wiki page including the fluff clause was written by Ergovisavi, who made the swarmers themselves. Forgot that part.

[Cobby]

code solutions re: pressure checking projectiles sounds incredibly snowflake-y

It's a singular projectile made from a flimsy robot that can spawn en-masse. The lore is very easy to explain and the need is obviously there, when you consider we have pressure checks for other projectiles I find the use of the word snowflake-y odd.

[Arianya]

code solutions re: pressure checking projectiles sounds incredibly snowflake-y

It's a singular projectile made from a flimsy robot that can spawn en-masse. The lore is very easy to explain and the need is obviously there, when you consider we have pressure checks for other projectiles I find the use of the word snowflake-y odd.

The suggestion that was given here is a projectile that checks the pressure it hits in (so that a swarmer can't disabler someone into dying of low pressure from a normal pressure hallway) not the pressure it originates in, though I'm no coder so maybe it's less snowflake-y then it sounds

[Boris]

Hi can i just say that the swarmer laws are flavor text and not meant to be followed iirc?

[Anuv]

Swarmers should mask identity like drone. More than once I've been metagrudge by someone I killed earlier via permastunning until round end.

[subject217]

Swarmers should mask identity like drone. More than once I've been metagrudge by someone I killed earlier via permastunning until round end.

Drones don't actually do this in the current code IIRC, it was removed.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Swarmers should mask identity like drone. More than once I've been metagrudge by someone I killed earlier via permastunning until round end.

Drones don't actually do this in the current code IIRC, it was removed.

Its still in, its just optional and never hid the actual name anyway i believe

[imsxz]

idea:
take away any blatant offensive abilities from swarmers (such as their disabler beams)

give them thermals maybe

give them more stuff for defense/evasion(nothing too obnoxious of course)

[Grazyn]

idea:
take away any blatant offensive abilities from swarmers (such as their disabler beams)

give them thermals maybe

give them more stuff for defense/evasion(nothing too obnoxious of course)

combat is still stun-based, so anything that helps you staying alive involves preventing the other guy from moving/shooting in some way or the other. That, or some sort of blink spell that would be even more annoying

[DemonFiren]

Hi can i just say that the swarmer laws are flavor text and not meant to be followed iirc?

should be tbh

[Grazyn]

bad precedent to have antags limited by their flavor text

[DemonFiren]

if you consider laws flavour text, sure
but by that logic any rule that is displayed on conversion or spawning as antag is just ascended flavour text

[Grazyn]

The only binding "rules" I can think of that appear in fluff text are those from conversion and they are already covered by server rule 4 ("don't harm your team") regardless of flavour text. Slaved mobs' text like "obey your master" don't qualify because slaved mobs aren't antags per se.

A revenant will never be banned because he disobeyed his flavour text of "avoid being noticed" or "avoid killing in plain sight", same as other antags ignoring their objectives.

[Davidchan]

Swarmers are still supposed to have the means to push into new areas when they've consumed anything of interest in their part of the station. Any notion that they should be self defense only is retarded, they are an invasive pest and a side antag. If they aren't becoming a thorn in the crew's side the longer the round goes on they aren't doing their job. Show me one instance of the grief ghost revenant being punished or prevented from shocking lights in a room full of people.

Taking away their space proofness or making their projectiles inverse kinetic accelerators will have people donning suits and depressurizing the station left and right. Swarmers can't breach or cause pressure breaches by their own power, meaning someone else caused the problem and atmos didn't bother to do their job. As for OPs situation (albiet an extreme one) I'd say Rule #1 Don't be a dick applies. I agree that swarmers shouldn't be chain stunning someone because, but attempting to code or change the rules to apply broad restrictions onto the role when a minority of people are abusing it is nonsensical. Role ban the offending parties and move on.

[somerandomguy]

Swarmers are still supposed to have the means to push into new areas when they've consumed anything of interest in their part of the station. Any notion that they should be self defense only is retarded, they are an invasive pest and a side antag. If they aren't becoming a thorn in the crew's side the longer the round goes on they aren't doing their job. Show me one instance of the grief ghost revenant being punished or prevented from shocking lights in a room full of people.

Taking away their space proofness or making their projectiles inverse kinetic accelerators will have people donning suits and depressurizing the station left and right. Swarmers can't breach or cause pressure breaches by their own power, meaning someone else caused the problem and atmos didn't bother to do their job. As for OPs situation (albiet an extreme one) I'd say Rule #1 Don't be a dick applies. I agree that swarmers shouldn't be chain stunning someone because, but attempting to code or change the rules to apply broad restrictions onto the role when a minority of people are abusing it is nonsensical. Role ban the offending parties and move on.

Revenant gets revealed when it shocks lights, giving anyone not stunned time to slap it to death

[subject217]

if you consider laws flavour text, sure
but by that logic any rule that is displayed on conversion or spawning as antag is just ascended flavour text

These have been flavor text since their very inception. It's how the person who made the PR described it and it's how he wrote it on the wiki.

Swarmers are mechanically limited, not by roleplay. End of story.

[Cobby]

Swarmers are still supposed to have the means to push into new areas when they've consumed anything of interest in their part of the station. Any notion that they should be self defense only is retarded, they are an invasive pest and a side antag. If they aren't becoming a thorn in the crew's side the longer the round goes on they aren't doing their job. Show me one instance of the grief ghost revenant being punished or prevented from shocking lights in a room full of people.

Taking away their space proofness or making their projectiles inverse kinetic accelerators will have people donning suits and depressurizing the station left and right. Swarmers can't breach or cause pressure breaches by their own power, meaning someone else caused the problem and atmos didn't bother to do their job. As for OPs situation (albiet an extreme one) I'd say Rule #1 Don't be a dick applies. I agree that swarmers shouldn't be chain stunning someone because, but attempting to code or change the rules to apply broad restrictions onto the role when a minority of people are abusing it is nonsensical. Role ban the offending parties and move on.

ban people (antags) for using a feature totally permissible by the game seems like a pretty poor way to approach it, especially when that basically admits to everyone we know it's mechanically flawed.

Having people tear up their own station in the way that people start fires to put out bigger fires sounds like just the kinda hectic behavior we'd want to get out of swarmers. Want to counter the lower pressure? Actually swarm as a group!

[Davidchan]

Swarmers are still supposed to have the means to push into new areas when they've consumed anything of interest in their part of the station. Any notion that they should be self defense only is retarded, they are an invasive pest and a side antag. If they aren't becoming a thorn in the crew's side the longer the round goes on they aren't doing their job. Show me one instance of the grief ghost revenant being punished or prevented from shocking lights in a room full of people.

Taking away their space proofness or making their projectiles inverse kinetic accelerators will have people donning suits and depressurizing the station left and right. Swarmers can't breach or cause pressure breaches by their own power, meaning someone else caused the problem and atmos didn't bother to do their job. As for OPs situation (albiet an extreme one) I'd say Rule #1 Don't be a dick applies. I agree that swarmers shouldn't be chain stunning someone because, but attempting to code or change the rules to apply broad restrictions onto the role when a minority of people are abusing it is nonsensical. Role ban the offending parties and move on.

ban people (antags) for using a feature totally permissible by the game seems like a pretty poor way to approach it, especially when that basically admits to everyone we know it's mechanically flawed.

Having people tear up their own station in the way that people start fires to put out bigger fires sounds like just the kinda hectic behavior we'd want to get out of swarmers. Want to counter the lower pressure? Actually swarm as a group!

Hitting someone with a toolbox or breaching a hallway as a nonantag is a permissible action codewise but are clearly violation of the rules for non-antags to pursue without very good reason. Swarmers are pretty weak as it stands and anyone remotely prepared to deal with them can destroy them or get around them without much trouble. Swarmers are by definition only a multiplier for any lethal situation, they can't cause one directly on their own and only through negligence of the crew can a swarmer result in someone's death. If a person is in a situation with zero chance of a lethal outcome, a swarmer can't kill them. I'm just trying to figure out why people are rallying to nerf a role that can only be a problem if most of the active players in a round are actively ignoring them.

[Supermichael777]

Every time I see swarmers they have gone out of their way to kill people, for example by teleporting them onto a window and pushing them into space.

If you let players kill people, their going to kill people, just because its fun to kill people.

Its why you get validhunting and tideing, its more fun to get those valids on or grief then to start art projects.

The problem is that swarmers as conceived of and theamed vs swarmers as played doesn't match.

And you have a group saying they don't want to enforce flavor-text and also don't make a balance change.

For the fun facts lets list off the dangerous shit swarmers can do

They can make sparks, and therefore fire.

they can stun people and cuff them, This teleports the person, sometimes they end up in dangerous places, or inside a window next to space.

they can push people around.

they can set off fire alarms with their disabler

[Nilons]

remove/replace flavour text problem solved

[Grazyn]

Swarmers can't choose where to teleport and the teleported guy ends up far away from them. Teleporting into window + pushing isn't really a reliable or common way to kill given how random and clunky it is. They can ignite plasma but there must be plasma there in the first place, which is almost always the work of another antag. Setting off fire alarms does nothing but stop people, it's just non lethal crowd control, and you risk getting locked with them if you are in the wrong place.

[Davidchan]

Every time I see swarmers they have gone out of their way to kill people, for example by teleporting them onto a window and pushing them into space.

Swarmers don't get to pick where their target ends up, nor can they push people through a solid window. A TP'd target always goes to a human safe tile with breathable air. And I've never seen someone end up on a tile occupied by a window or object.

The problem is that swarmers as conceived of and theamed vs swarmers as played doesn't match.

Their entire 'theme' is to rip the entire station apart, make more of themselves and be a royal pain in the crews' ass if they try to stop them.

For the fun facts lets list off the dangerous shit swarmers can do

They can make sparks, and therefore fire.

they can stun people and cuff them, This teleports the person, sometimes they end up in dangerous places, or inside a window next to space.

they can push people around.

they can set off fire alarms with their disabler

Sparks... are not dangerous. And Swarmers mechanically cannot cause a plasma spill, they don't have the tools to alter pipes and they are hardcoded to prevent fucking with atmos canisters. I'm not even sure if swamers are fire proof, so even if one was dumb enough to start a fire it wouldn't help them.

For starters, the cuffing happens after the teleport, not before. And as already stated, they have no control of the TP location. it's a random HUMAN SAFE tile. Always. Only things that cause a teleporter malfunction can screw with that, which is on the victim in this case, not the swarmer. And even if we assume that swarmers could force someone onto a space window, then what? You can't push through glass, and the swarmer can't disassemble windows or walls next to space meaning that person is free to uncuff themselves and wander off.

Swarmers are eternally on help intent, they can swap tiles with someone unless their intent is to harm. And getting in melee range is generally suicide for swarmers to begin with given how nearly everyone carries a welder and can be cut to shreds in 3 hits. So a swarmer trying to grief by pushing people isn't going to get far.

And finally the fire alarms? So? Absolute worst case scenario they get lucky and a shutter crushes someone dealing all of 10 damage. The swarmer can't pry open the shutter and person can get up and run away or deal with the swarmer. Otherwise the swarmer has put themselves at a disadvantage by locking themselves in a room and taking away their mobility.

And you have a group saying they don't want to enforce flavor-text and also don't make a balance change.

Seems more like we have a group of people that have never played the role, understand the role or how it works demanding changes to it because they don't know how to deal with it, going off your above comments.

[Cobby]

"Seems more like we have a group of people that have never played the role, understand the role or how it works demanding changes to it because they don't know how to deal with it, going off your above comments."

Perhaps they know how it works and they simply dislike how it plays out ingame as opposed to on paper/forums?

[Arianya]

This thread kinda got off track with discussion about code and stuff, but I'll bring it back round to the original topic:

Swarmers are restricted from killing by their third law, which reads,

Biological resources will be harvested at a later date, do not harm them.

Swarmers are expected to follow this, as well as their other laws, and shouldn't be intentionally vying for someones death. That said, concession should be given for the fact that Swarmers aren't all knowing. The Swarmer in the OP may have been unaware of the low pressure, or of how to teleport the person away, and shouldn't necessarily be punished for this. If people want to explore code changes that might help with this, they're free to, but it feels like too much of an edge case to justify any change in policy, in either direction.