/tg/Station 13

So basically with pen and headset, you can reliably guess the codes to them in a given round. Let's say you catch a guy, you know he's a traitor for whatever reason, and you want to get into his uplink because you're a greedy gamer.

In the situation above, would it be so bad to attempt to guess their uplink code knowing you have a good chance at getting it quickly with some uplink lobjects? Assume he hasn't told you what item his uplink is, either.

imsxz wrote:So basically with pen and headset, you can reliably guess the codes to them in a given round. Let's say you catch a guy, you know he's a traitor for whatever reason, and you want to get into his uplink because you're a greedy gamer.

In the situation above, would it be so bad to attempt to guess their uplink code knowing you have a good chance at getting it quickly with some uplink lobjects? Assume he hasn't told you what item his uplink is, either.

Congrats, that's metagaming.

You don't get to randomly start fucking with his headset or pen because you saw he had a chameleon kit. It's scumbaggy to even check people's headsets for syndicate keys just incase.

Not at all, if they don't like it then

1) Code a non-gameable way or
2) set your pref to PDA

You're allowed to know mechanics, ergo you're allowed to know uplinks are in the PDA/headset/pen.

Cobby wrote:You're allowed to know mechanics, ergo you're allowed to know uplinks are in the PDA/headset/pen.

You're allowed to know however you shouldn't actually arrest someone for breaking a window, take their pen, and start guessing rapidly.

Not to strawman argument but you're also allowed to know the AI can burn all of the station into a crisp with atmos. You're not allowed to make atmos immune to the AI sadly, though.

Ayy Lemoh wrote:

Cobby wrote:You're allowed to know mechanics, ergo you're allowed to know uplinks are in the PDA/headset/pen.

You're allowed to know however you shouldn't actually arrest someone for breaking a window, take their pen, and start guessing rapidly.

Not to strawman argument but you're also allowed to know the AI can burn all of the station into a crisp with atmos. You're not allowed to make atmos immune to the AI sadly, though.

that is why i included in the OP originally that in this situation you're already sure that the person you have arrested is a traitor.

headset: currently 24 possible frequencies as well as easy scrollthrough, best you can do is disable scrollthrough and use the full range for 199 possible frequencies
pen: 360 possible rotations; add one more digit to get 3600, should be good enough?
PDA: 900 * 26 = 23400 possible passcodes, already fine

Can't security players just exercise suspension of disbelief and leave headsets/pens alone in the name of fun and to keep rounds interesting?
If they can't how about anybody with a mindshield implant can't access it?

ishortjr33 wrote:Can't security players just [Anything that requires more than 90 IQ]

no

Malkraz wrote:

ishortjr33 wrote:Can't security players just [Anything that requires more than 90 IQ]

no

fixed it better.

players gonna metagame/validhunt/etc.

to think that they're gonna abide by some ideal? you're kidding yourself.

SpaceManiac wrote:headset: currently 24 possible frequencies as well as easy scrollthrough, best you can do is disable scrollthrough and use the full range for 199 possible frequencies
pen: 360 possible rotations; add one more digit to get 3600, should be good enough?
PDA: 900 * 26 = 23400 possible passcodes, already fine

consider setting headset and pen to require, like, old-school safecrack to unlock. As in you first have to set it to one, use in-hand, then immediately set it to the second. That'd immediately bump the 24-frequency headset up to 576 combinations.

if someone leaves their uplink unlocked without locking it again though it's on them

ishortjr33 wrote:Can't security players just exercise suspension of disbelief and leave headsets/pens alone in the name of fun and to keep rounds interesting?
If they can't how about anybody with a mindshield implant can't access it?

There is a long-standing server culture that loathes any attempt at forcing players to "play dumb", i.e. pretending to ignore obvious game mechanics for the sake of RP. Rules accomodate this tradition with only one exception, if you find the nuke ops shuttle you must ignore it and you should not report it or attempt to attack it unless it's war ops (and this is a very recent ruling made by current headmins so it can be overturned in the future).

Sec is also quite sensitive on this issue since they are already allowed to know about innocent-looking syndie items and to investigate them, so asking them to ignore the fact that an uplink can be inside headset or pen and not just inside the PDA would be poorly received. The problem here is that those uplinks are too easy to crack, so it should be fixed through code not policy.

ishortjr33 wrote:Can't security players just exercise suspension of disbelief and leave headsets/pens alone in the name of fun and to keep rounds interesting?
If they can't how about anybody with a mindshield implant can't access it?

The thing is, traitor gear is really cool and everyone wants to get it
Having fun and keeping rounds interesting is helped by getting traitor gear

Fun and interesting means not artificially restricting what players can do.

I agree with Cobby's post.

Trying to RNG guess a Traitors uplink code does strike me as acting in poor form.

However, I feel this is more a symptom that a uplink in the headset has so few possible frequencies that checking RNG is pretty easy to do. You'd be better off doing what SpaceManiac said and increasing the range, or just remove the headset uplink. Something tells me the average player in the average round won't go through 3600 possible digits to find the code.

Besides, I think Security and/or non-antagonists getting access to Traitor/Syndicate gear through in game means can lead to interesting situations.

Steelpoint wrote:Something tells me the average player in the average round won't go through 3600 possible digits to find the code.

What 3600 digits? Checking headset frequencies for uplink takes 10 seconds. I do it all the time when there's suspicion.

Ayy Lemoh wrote:

Cobby wrote:You're allowed to know mechanics, ergo you're allowed to know uplinks are in the PDA/headset/pen.

You're allowed to know however you shouldn't actually arrest someone for breaking a window, take their pen, and start guessing rapidly.

Not to strawman argument but you're also allowed to know the AI can burn all of the station into a crisp with atmos. You're not allowed to make atmos immune to the AI sadly, though.

There was already a policy thread on this

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... nk#p378859

CosmicScientist wrote:Interesting is usually not HoS with an ebow. Fun for the HoS? Probably, they get valid gear whilst not being valid.

Generally fun and interesting coincides with not steamrolling the only antagonists unless you want mulligan enabled or whatever replacement antags is called.

If R&D still required tator kit for illegal research (that was thrown out with techwebs, right?) then there'd be a reason to get security to hand over uplinks or a traitor's stash instead of just having it for personal use.

They already have an ebow, it's called a taser
I was talking about stuff like emag for extra functions on machines, binary key to chill with the silicons, bluespace launchpad because it's cool, hardsuit for mobility, sleepy pen to fill with meds to heal your officers, etc
There's a lot of traitor gear that can be used for things other than validhunting
Also, sci still has illegal tech but the main restriction is points, since you can cheese it by printing a .357 speedloader

- Normal hardsuits don't have fast mode
- sec confiscating the hypo is garbage and sometimes there's an emergency
- lotsa the emag stuff is useable as nonantag (although not always useful for sec), including emagging borgs (but you have to be careful to not be shit with it)
- there's even an emag function specifically FOR sec, the mask thing
- if you emag a chem dispenser you can make rezadone easily, which heals clone damage without cryo
- launchpads are just cool and underused
- binary key can be used to just talk to silicons too
Additionally
- cham kit to mess around
- soap because sec is probably a mess by now
- adrenals to cheat death
- cash to buy stuff from cargo

Sure all of it can be used to validhunt or grief, but there's other uses too, you just need to, well, not use it to validhunt
Also >"choose a better argument that isn't your existing argument"

the cargo budget is the cargo points, this has been in since launch of economy

also this should be moved to coding feedback since the uplink codes are supposed to be randomized enough to prevent bruteforcing and quite frankly headset/pen uplinks could use removal or just add like a few extra zeroes onto the possible permutations

iamgoofball wrote:the cargo budget is the cargo points, this has been in since launch of economy

also this should be moved to coding feedback since the uplink codes are supposed to be randomized enough to prevent bruteforcing and quite frankly headset/pen uplinks could use removal or just add like a few extra zeroes onto the possible permutations

gonna leave it here actually since it seems like the goal of the thread is to make a rule against brute forcing codes. but IMO a code solution would be a better fix

Ayy Lemoh wrote:

Cobby wrote:You're allowed to know mechanics, ergo you're allowed to know uplinks are in the PDA/headset/pen.

You're allowed to know however you shouldn't actually arrest someone for breaking a window, take their pen, and start guessing rapidly.

Not to strawman argument but you're also allowed to know the AI can burn all of the station into a crisp with atmos. You're not allowed to make atmos immune to the AI sadly, though.

I think if you actually look at the question in the original post then look at my response again you'd find the answer to your question.

PKPenguin321 wrote:

iamgoofball wrote:the cargo budget is the cargo points, this has been in since launch of economy

also this should be moved to coding feedback since the uplink codes are supposed to be randomized enough to prevent bruteforcing and quite frankly headset/pen uplinks could use removal or just add like a few extra zeroes onto the possible permutations

gonna leave it here actually since it seems like the goal of the thread is to make a rule against brute forcing codes. but IMO a code solution would be a better fix

yeah nah this doesn't need a rule, the fact it's brute forceable on pens/radios is frankly bug report worthy

PKPenguin321 wrote:

iamgoofball wrote:the cargo budget is the cargo points, this has been in since launch of economy

also this should be moved to coding feedback since the uplink codes are supposed to be randomized enough to prevent bruteforcing and quite frankly headset/pen uplinks could use removal or just add like a few extra zeroes onto the possible permutations

gonna leave it here actually since it seems like the goal of the thread is to make a rule against brute forcing codes. but IMO a code solution would be a better fix

I made this thread with the idea in mind that the listed game mechanic is an issue, the goal was to see if a code solution is needed or a policy solution. It seems like code so far and that's what I was hoping we'd conclude on.