What can security count as contraband and what should they get away with taking?

[Karp]

Regarding the ban appeal imsxz had with an officer and the stolen soap, what would be viably considered contraband and what would security be able to take from people they brig?

What should we define as too far on contraband: insulated gloves, tools, soap, sunglasses, etc?

Is it justifiable to discriminate based on role? (e.g. assistants are more likley to get their tools taken away vs cargo, engineering, or science.)

Can officers take contraband items from heads of staff? (Door remotes or their unqiue item)

At what level should people be allowed to retaliate, if they are even allowed to in the first place?

Do you think security stealing items brazenly from people should be a punishable offense via admins as an out of character thing or should it be punishable at all?

Sorry if this seems angry or very focused I'm just trying to cover all bases so this policy discussion thread doesn't go nowhere

[Steelpoint]

I don't think making a hard and fast rule would be a good thing, nonetheless I think Security should have overt discretion in what they take from someone if they commited a crime and release them.

What should we define as too far on contraband: insulated gloves, tools, soap, sunglasses, etc?

I think we should only consider things going "too far" if Security takes vital items from someone that make it impossible for them to do their job, such as someone's ID card or essential job equipment (Toolset for Engineers, Medical Kits for Doctors). The ONLY exceptions here I would say are items that were used in the original crime, of if Security believe the individual will continue to abuse their essential items to commit further crimes. If their crime and their equipment (engineer building a public death trap) are intrinsically tied together then this would be justification to get them demoted from that position.

Is it justifiable to discriminate based on role? (e.g. assistants are more likely to get their tools taken away vs cargo, engineering, or science.)

Discrimination would come from what items are considered "vital items" for that job. Assistants have no job so anything they possess beyond their clothing and ID would be free to confiscate (I'd argue if the assistant spent their credits to buy equipment that, unless those items were used in a crime, they should be returned to the assistant (but good luck getting a proof of purchase/receipt))

Can officers take contraband items from heads of staff? (Door remotes or their unique item)

Situational and I'd defer to the Head of Security/Captain for this. But I think that anything used in the crime should be confiscated, so if that includes head of staff items then so be it.

At what level should people be allowed to retaliate, if they are even allowed to in the first place?

If they commited a crime then I think they have little feet to stand on in this regard. If they were unfairly arrested, or the crime they were originally arrested for was a minor one, and then lost items (that you did not steal) to confiscation then I'd put that as justification to consider escalation.

Do you think security stealing items brazenly from people should be a punishable offense via admins as an out of character thing or should it be punishable at all?

I think if a Officer uncommonly takes items outside their scope of jurisdiction (not used in a crime) then it should be considered a IC issue, raise the issue with the HoS, Captain or Central Command. It might add spice to the round if done sparingly.

If an Officer is brazenly looting items off of people constantly and consistently without justification then I'd argue it warrants admin intervention in asking them to stop/tone it down.

[Davidchan]

I don't think making a hard and fast rule would be a good thing, nonetheless I think Security should have overt discretion in what they take from someone if they commited a crime and release them.

Space law isn't enforced so unless sec is taking antag only items should be treated the same as any other greyshit stealing your gloves or toolbelt.

[leibniz]

Spoiler:

[youtube]Rr0J2mQRWqs[/youtube]

[Lazengann]

Anything, as long as they can explain why they confiscated it. If you've arrested someone for weaponry, taking away their soap is fair game because it can be a deadly weapon. If an assistant is hacking into departments, their gloves and tools can go.

[Lumbermancer]

If soap was used in a malicious way it gets confiscated. Same with the tool belt you used to break into brig a minute ago. What the lad above me said.

[Gamarr]

Crew have no rights so the answer is everything not directly tied to said crewmans job/dept. Door remotes are a privilege for example and stupid Heads who are abusing it, which really should be bad, lose it. Assistants have long since had all their useful things stolen from the brig no matter the reason they are there or the length of the stay from my experience alone. Nothing wrong with that to me honestly.

Discrimination happens based on race so why is job such a question? Obviously the answer is yes, of course you can. Cargo is not R& and assistants are not medical staff.

The 'theft' is mostly an IC thing and has been for a long time afaik. Not all sec is this bad and I don't like engaging the entire brig over one red asshole's actions. Perhaps it is better to say that I have zero faith in admins correcting such flaws, as they've been going on for so long, that harassment and punishment to the sec in question in-game feels more appropriate. One way of adapting is not carrying what you can't afford to lose, and suddenly any trip to the brig is just a contesting of wills and how much the sec hates you or can't stand to listen to you.

[Nilons]

Steelpoint laid it out pretty well in his post

[WarbossLincoln]

essentially what steelpoint said.

The issue with the ban was that he spaced the body. There was escalation to the murder because the soap wasn't a stolen item, he wasn't using it in a crime, the officer just took it. Spacing the body was too far though.

I don't confiscate anything from a prisoner unless it's obviously stolen, like the hypospray or something. Even tools their job doesn't get isn't as clear anymore. Anyone can buy stuff if you can get to the vendor. An assistant with an RCD just means he was in engineering with 150$. Could have been let in, etc. Unless the item was used in a crime I don't take it.

[Xeroxemnas]

I don't think there's anything wrong with security taking gloves from an arrested greyshirt as a finder's fee. After all the shitter is probably just gonna break into shit again anyway.

[Gamarr]

I don't think there's anything wrong with security taking gloves from an arrested greyshirt as a finder's fee. After all the shitter is probably just gonna break into shit again anyway.

This is quite commonplace, and while I will not say either it is wrong or right this is however how you get dead officers in maintenance over what amounts to bullshit.

[Karp]

-snip-

A rule too harsh would be bad, I agree

My main point with my original post was because I've had a lot of bad experiences with officers flat out looting me and selectively picking shit they want off of me when I get brigged over genuinely doing nothing/messing around with other people

Being an assistant honestly makes it pretty likley that you're going to be discriminated as the person prepetuating crimes. Arrested without any reason immediately roundstart, arrested due to someone elses crime being caught e.g. someone emags a public area airlock and it has my fingerprints as the last source of dna

Lumbermancer is right and related crimes is probablay the best way of doing it but even then most officers can argue and stretch that definition pretty hard, if someone like the clown or an assistant starts running around with a relabelled o2 canister and security doesn't check it it can lead to them losing things

Main point of arguing this is because I don't think security deserves any special protection if they are being assholes because of the fact that they arrest you flat out without any reason>they loot your insulated gloves/toolbelt as an engineer or assistant>you come back to try to get it and you eventually break in>they upgrade your sentence/perma you

If that guy actually got told that they were locking his soap up for now due to finding a weapon on him it's likley that appeal probably wouldn't have happened

Most rounds security ends up being as destructive as the antagonists(No thanks to conversion gamemodes like revolution and especially cult) and the inability to have any retribution against them stealing shit and killing people for trying to fight back is primarily what I hate

*EDIT*: In addition having security take your ID to upgrade their own ID sucks ass

[Lumbermancer]

Being an assistant honestly makes it pretty likley that you're going to be discriminated as the person prepetuating crimes.

That's part of the lore though.

[Karp]

Being an assistant honestly makes it pretty likley that you're going to be discriminated as the person prepetuating crimes.

That's part of the lore though.

It's silly when everyone is saying that X did a crime and you get arrested anyways due to being an assistant and said person ends up killing the officer and you in transit to the brig. It does end up being very cathartic though.

I dont mind slight discrimination but flat out assuming people are always doing crimes when evidence is to the contrary and even the victims/warden/hos/captain is telling them the contrary is the case is the most insane thing I have seen

[BeeSting12]

What would be viably considered contraband and what would security be able to take from people they brig?
Not a good idea to come up with a hard policy for this. The list is too long and extensive to make here. Honestly, if the officer can come up with a good (read: not completely stupid) reason to take it, then I'd let it go if it came down to bwoinking him for it.

What should we define as too far on contraband: insulated gloves, tools, soap, sunglasses, etc?
Insulated gloves shouldn't be confiscated if they weren't stolen or weren't used in a crime. Ditto for tools. Soap/sunglasses are in a grey area. If the guy's a criminal and he's abusing both to get out of arrests then I'd just take them. None of these items are too far, but if it's to the point where officers are taking IDs/items vital to your job without reason, admin intervention might be needed. Key word being without reason.

Is it justifiable to discriminate based on role? (e.g. assistants are more likley to get their tools taken away vs cargo, engineering, or science.)
No idea where this is coming from. Assistants don't have much of a purpose useful to the station, so if they commit a crime I could understand a harsher punishment and their gear (which they don't even need) taken.

Can officers take contraband items from heads of staff? (Door remotes or their unqiue item)
Job essential items shouldn't be taken. If it's being used to break the law then yes, it should be taken. (ie, HoP is running around bolting the public access doors with his remote).

At what level should people be allowed to retaliate, if they are even allowed to in the first place?
I'd like to see players be allowed to retaliate against security more when security is legitimately unfair, but not against the whole security team, just the one officer. I remember at least one issue with notorious greytiders doing something to piss off an officer and then using that as an excuse to escalate against the whole security team (slipping, stealing from, killing all of them). This type of thing would likely be suspended on conversion rounds so people don't phlogiston/black powder security for detaining them to implant/holy water. (actual situation I dealt with a week or two ago).

Good escalation against security: Edward Sloan just tased me and stole my toolbelt for (this is for real) no reason. I can take it back from him, and if he retaliates, I can escalate further up to death/spacing. However, I can't kill other members of security for trying to arrest me after I do this- I can only non lethally evade them since they're just doing their job.

Bad escalation against security: Luke Cox just brigged me for five minutes after I broke into RnD. He also took my toolbelt and insulated gloves. I should go take back my gloves, and kill/space him if he retaliates. (Taking back the gloves is acceptable, but you can't just kill him for doing his job.) Afterwards, I'll kill any sec officer who tries arresting me.

Do you think security stealing items brazenly from people should be a punishable offense via admins as an out of character thing or should it be punishable at all?
Situational, but it should be allowed to be handled ICly, and if there was legitimately no reason for it, then the security player should be punished OOCly if it was an item of any importance to their job. Confiscating and then using the item is something that shouldn't be punishable if there's a real reason to confiscate it.

[Cobby]

What should we define as too far on contraband: insulated gloves, tools, soap, sunglasses, etc?

Things directly related to the crime at hand (IE igloves and tools for a breakin, soap during an assault, etc.). If you can't justify it being taken without assumptions then probably shouldn't take it without willing to be escalated upon.

Is it justifiable to discriminate based on role? (e.g. assistants are more likley to get their tools taken away vs cargo, engineering, or science.)

I think it's less of the role and more behind the player but no one will say this because the latter is a direct violation of the rules.

Can officers take contraband items from heads of staff? (Door remotes or their unqiue item)

If they use it maliciously sure. I don't think these items are contraband though.

At what level should people be allowed to retaliate, if they are even allowed to in the first place?

See Escalation Policy. For sec, this would be when it goes beyond the justified arrest.

Do you think security stealing items brazenly from people should be a punishable offense via admins as an out of character thing or should it be punishable at all?

No but it should be an escalate worthy action with the officer being considered the instigator.

[Fatal]

When the greytiding stops, assistants should expect to not have their shit looted by security

Until then, deal with it

Otherwise, if it isn't related to your job or obviously stolen from somewhere you shouldn't complain if it gets taken and you were arrested for legit reasons

It's amazing when you play security and you find assistants with handcuffs and cable restraints and they don't expect those to be confiscated

[Lumbermancer]

When the greytiding stops

It doesn't.

[Mickyan]

Don't get me wrong I agree with the sentiment and looting people as sec is shitty but these are the kind of things that make people not want to play security, the prospect that an assistant is allowed to escalate and possibly kill you for doing your job but if you take his gloves you get bwoinked

I know that's not exactly what you're saying here but the amount of scrutiny security gets in front of the rules is disproportionate when other jobs can get away with just about anything short of killing random people

[Karp]

the prospect that an assistant is allowed to escalate and possibly kill you for doing your job

but there's explicitly a rule in escalation policy that you can't kill security for doing their jobs

That doesn't happen unless youre intentionally being a shithead e.g. insta gulagging every assistant you see or arresting people for terrible reasons(Head lets them in and gives them authority and access, officer ignores this fact and still attempts to detain the person)

Unless you're bad enough that the admin already knows and laughs off your ahelp with an ic issue you can't do that and saying that admins have sided with nonantags who kill sec for doing their job is either being intentionally dishonest and hiding details of your shittiness or the admin being a retard who you should complain against

Kor even explicitly and repeatedly said "Non antagonists can't kill security for doing their job" in policy discussions over his escalation policy

[Cobby]

the prospect that an assistant is allowed to escalate and possibly kill you for doing your job

but there's explicitly a rule in escalation policy that you can't kill security for doing their jobs

That doesn't happen unless youre intentionally being a shithead e.g. insta gulagging every assistant you see or arresting people for terrible reasons(Head lets them in and gives them authority and access, officer ignores this fact and still attempts to detain the person)

Unless you're bad enough that the admin already knows and laughs off your ahelp with an ic issue you can't do that and saying that admins have sided with nonantags who kill sec for doing their job is either being intentionally dishonest and hiding details of your shittiness or the admin being a retard who you should complain against

Kor even explicitly and repeatedly said "Non antagonists can't kill security for doing their job" in policy discussions over his escalation policy

It's also in the rules directly

You can't kill or maim security for trying to arrest you for legitimate reasons.

[Mickyan]

Mentioning killing was a mistake but my point is an assistant getting punished for stealing something is pretty much unheard of so why should security get that treatment when they at least have a (admittedly not always acceptable) excuse to make sure troublemakers don't leave the brig with the means to cause more trouble

This should be one of those rule 1 things if there's a pattern for one individual that does it constantly and not something actionable by itself

[ShadowDimentio]

If it's stolen it's contraband. If it's antag gear it's double contraband.

If sec isn't sure if it's stolen or not (IE, it's entirely possible they got it legit) assume it isn't stolen.

Only confiscate things when they're being major dicks and tiding/acting like an antag. Taking gear from people, valid or no, is grounds for proportional retaliation from them, and them attempting to take it back.

Only commandeer equipment from people/corpses if the situation warrants it. Only EVER use antag gear in an absolute crisis and/or the warden isn't available to sit on it for you.

[Farquaar]

Anyone who sparks a stationwide manhunt should realize that their burglar’s tools and improvised weapons are fair game. Doubly so for those who harm, slip or stun officers in the process.

[Screemonster]

Anyone who sparks a stationwide manhunt should realize that their burglar’s tools and improvised weapons are fair game. Doubly so for those who harm, slip or stun officers in the process.

I've seen security go into manhunt mode over the stupidest shit in the past though

if an assistant is in science because the RD let them in and gave them access and security decide REEE AN ASSISTANT IN SCIENCE IS TRESSSSPAAASSSSIIIINNNNGGGG then it's not the assistant that sparked the manhunt

[Davidchan]

Anyone who sparks a stationwide manhunt should realize that their burglar’s tools and improvised weapons are fair game. Doubly so for those who harm, slip or stun officers in the process.

I've seen security go into manhunt mode over the stupidest shit in the past though

if an assistant is in science because the RD let them in and gave them access and security decide REEE AN ASSISTANT IN SCIENCE IS TRESSSSPAAASSSSIIIINNNNGGGG then it's not the assistant that sparked the manhunt

Welcome to the mind of your average sec main. Security's problems is everyone elses' fault.

[Farquaar]

Anyone who sparks a stationwide manhunt should realize that their burglar’s tools and improvised weapons are fair game. Doubly so for those who harm, slip or stun officers in the process.

I've seen security go into manhunt mode over the stupidest shit in the past though

if an assistant is in science because the RD let them in and gave them access and security decide REEE AN ASSISTANT IN SCIENCE IS TRESSSSPAAASSSSIIIINNNNGGGG then it's not the assistant that sparked the manhunt

I'm more talking like this
Assistant 1: Sends the clown into crit and begins stripping him
Security: "Hey you, stop right there!"
Assistant 1: Grabs the clown's bag and ID, runs away without saying a word.
Security: Tases perp, cuffs him and drags him to security after informing his team over the radio
Assistant 2: Grabs other assistant mid transit and runs off into maint somewhere
Security: Teams up with the other two guards and HoS, finally arrest one of these idiots after a ten minute yakety sax
Assistant: "SHITCURITY LEARN TO DO YOUR JOB LMAO YOU SUCK FUCKING KILL ME WAIT WHY ARE YOU TAKING MY GLOVES FUCK YOU"

[Screemonster]

critting the clown and robbing him is a crime though, and it is therefore security's job to arrest him, and he's not allowed to retaliate against them for doing their jobs. However, "trump up any excuse you can get to bust random people and steal their shit" is not security's job, so if you didn't commit any crimes and some shitheel officer decides to tase you and cuff you and take all your shit, then they don't get to enjoy any protection from people that retaliate against them

hell, if you think of "do a crime" as instigating things, then security are allowed to arrest you if you do a crime and you're not allowed to kill/crit them in retaliation because you're the instigator
if you haven't commited any crimes and some redshirt robs you anyway, then the officer is the instigator, therefore opening them up for !!FUN!! as per

You may instigate conflict with another player within reason (you cant completley destroy their department, kill them unprovoked, or otherwise take them out of the round for long periods of time) but they are entitled to respond with violence. If you think its unfair or excessive they killed you for taking their ID, consider not stealing next round.

[WarbossLincoln]

I'm more talking like this
Assistant 1: Sends the clown into crit and begins stripping him
Security: "Hey you, stop right there!"
Assistant 1: Grabs the clown's bag and ID, runs away without saying a word.
Security: Tases perp, cuffs him and drags him to security after informing his team over the radio
Assistant 2: Grabs other assistant mid transit and runs off into maint somewhere
Security: Teams up with the other two guards and HoS, finally arrest one of these idiots after a ten minute yakety sax
Assistant: "SHITCURITY LEARN TO DO YOUR JOB LMAO YOU SUCK FUCKING KILL ME WAIT WHY ARE YOU TAKING MY GLOVES FUCK YOU"

My solution to greyshits who free other greyshits from being arrested 4NR is to give assistant 2 4x the sentence of assistant 1 and always in gulag points, plus 100 points for every 5 minutes it takes to catch them.

[Cobby]

Reminder you’re already allowed to escalate if the arrest isn’t valid.

[Lumbermancer]

Reminder that just because you don't agree with it, it doesn't make it invalid.

[iksyp]

Welcome to the mind of your average sec main. Security's problems is everyone elses' fault.

this quote is actually true though because sec has to clean up everyone else's messes

[Cobby]

Reminder that just because you don't agree with it, it doesn't make it invalid.

My post was in reference to the RD giving assistant access then assistant getting arrested. It was an invalid arrest because he was, in fact, not trespassing.