/tg/Station 13

literally dont enable antag if you just wanna act like a nonantag, antags are here to antagonize not donate their uplink to the HOS.

not a shitpost btw, friendly antags are genuinely cancerous

Yes but only solo antags. Friendly wizards are omega gay, but friendly non-team antags are ok IMO.

Itt admin is salty over banning suicide wiz

ShadowDimentio wrote:Yes but only solo antags. Friendly wizards are omega gay, but friendly non-team antags are ok IMO.

this is a good position and a good compromise between a full ban/no ban.

solo antags are expected to drive the conflict for the entire round, so if they fuck around like an idiot instead of doing that, the round will go nowhere and they're just wasting everybodys time

NikNakFlak wrote:Itt admin is salty over banning suicide wiz

are you gonna tell me that a traitor giving their full uplink to HOS roundstart isnt awful and annoying to everyone including security

PKPenguin321 wrote:

ShadowDimentio wrote:Yes but only solo antags. Friendly wizards are omega gay, but friendly non-team antags are ok IMO.

this is a good position and a good compromise between a full ban/no ban.

solo antags are expected to drive the conflict for the entire round, so if they fuck around like an idiot instead of doing that, the round will go nowhere and they're just wasting everybodys time

Which is why I execute friendly wizards on sight. Get that shit outta here, boy.

Ive seen people who do that to make being a traitor more of a challenge and then continued to antagonize the station. Is this thread actually because you think its a constant problem or are you salty over suicide wiz ban

imsxz wrote:

NikNakFlak wrote:Itt admin is salty over banning suicide wiz

are you gonna tell me that a traitor giving their full uplink to HOS roundstart isnt awful and annoying to everyone including security

An honorable HoS would lock the uplink in the armory and not use it. Alas, most HoS aren't honorable.

i do genuinely believe that friendly antags are an issue, I'm not salty over the wizard suicide ruling as I have never suicided as a wizard and have no intention to. I never made a comment on friendly antags before because I was under the impression that solo antags are allowed to do that type of thing if they want but recent events have taught me the general idea of "frowned upon" ways of carrying out your solo antagonist rounds.

the giving your uplink to HOS was just an example, I saw it happen fairly recently and that's why I mentioned it. It doens't have to be directly helpful like that, when I say friendly antag I refer to not making an attempt to drive any conflict in the round, be it negligence or choice.

if you have no desire to preform your objectives OR ignite any conflict in the round, why bother enabling antagonist? It'd be better off on someone who intends to antagonize the round in whatever way they see fit.

I hate to use the term, but we need to tread carefully so as to avoid a slippery slope of restricting antag actions.

Nonetheless I do agree that solo antagonists going for a friendly gimmick tends to be boring UNLESS said antag is pulling off a interesting action.

Above all else, antagonists are expected to drive the round forward.

A traitor giving their uplink and code to the HoS does not inherently make the round boring since said antag may still attempt their objectives and the possible dilemma of the HoS and the uplink might be interesting.

A sole antagonist jumping to Robotics and spending 20 minutes talking to the Lizard in a roboticists uniform is not going to drive the round.

I seek antagonist as a way to have more fun by entertaining others or having a lot of liberty. It's why I like being antag and trading it away because it's easier for me to do stuff that is fun for others and myself than straight up going 'i am bored pls gib memes.' Even if I don't trade it away, I still prefer to do stuff that isn't murderboney especially since some of that fun stuff is only possible if you're an antag or cargo is emagged. It's not like the clown gets a chameleon kit and can dress up in any costume he wants. It's not like you can get a voice changer without traitor/changelings.

We shouldn't decide 'ok if wizs can't suicide then no one can have fun unless you murderbone and make everyone hate you' because that's just dumb. It is literally the inverse policy of HRP servers where 'YOU MUST DO A 2 HOUR MONOLOGUE BEFORE YOU CAN KILL SOMEONE. YOU CAN NOT MURDERBONE UNLESS YOU HAVE HIJACK. ROLEPLAY IS MANDATORY.'

It would also be really tedious if you weren't allowed to mess around because then the admins might ban you for not murdering enough people in twenty minutes, not sabotaging enough stuff in twenty minutes, or not being a cunt for twenty minutes.

Also, while giving your uplink to the HoS can be a shitty thing, that traitor MAY have thought he was just evening the odds. Against traitors, you have the chances of going up against an ebow + esword murderer, sleeping carp killer, a revolver that ignores sec armor, or someone who got CQC from the admins. It's possible he did it for reasons other than 'lmao'

I never made a comment on friendly antags before because I was under the impression that solo antags are allowed to do that type of thing if they want but recent events have taught me the general idea of "frowned upon" ways of carrying out your solo antagonist rounds.

quit being a strawman

imsxz wrote:literally dont enable antag if you just wanna act like a nonantag, antags are here to antagonize not donate their uplink to the HOS.

fuck off

NikNakFlak wrote:

I never made a comment on friendly antags before because I was under the impression that solo antags are allowed to do that type of thing if they want but recent events have taught me the general idea of "frowned upon" ways of carrying out your solo antagonist rounds.

quit being a strawman

im not gonna try and argue the reasons behind the thread being made, take a look at the actual shit i said about friendly antags instead of trying to devalue my argument with something unrelated to the issue itself.

Deitus wrote:

imsxz wrote:literally dont enable antag if you just wanna act like a nonantag, antags are here to antagonize not donate their uplink to the HOS.

fuck off

ok wise guy, why should joe schmoe enable antag if he doesn't want to bother acting like an antag? waste of a slot in the literal sense.

no seriously, fuck off. i legit thought this was a shitpost and i really hope you're just going at this under several layers of irony.

antags can do whatever the fuck they want with their traitor round. you cant and wont police that, dumbass suicide wiz ruling notwithstanding.

im not gonna try and argue the reasons behind the thread being made, take a look at the actual shit i said about friendly antags instead of trying to devalue my argument with something unrelated to the issue itself.

I'd take it more seriously if part of the reason you made it wasn't for dumb wizard salt which you literally state

I do believe that Solo Antagonists (Which currently encompasses Wizard) whom are the singular antagonist of the round should make 'some' effort to be antagonistic to the crew.

A solo antag should at the very least be neutral to passive aggressive to the majority of the crew, reserving hostility to its targets and people they are fighting against. Preferable they should be hostile to the majority of the crew.

I'm curious, if you don't want to be a traitor, why don't you trade your tc along antag status for a meme? Unless you're a boring person I guess.

One of my favourite stories from the "stories of awesome" thread was a chemist that got an easy objective and completed it near the start of the round, then went to do his job and forgot about being an antag - right up until the point where someone pestered him for all the mutagen in the dispensers for like the third time and got the CMO in to back him up and threaten to fire them when they said no, at which point he was like "ohyeah I'm an antag, I can just kill them"

I'd have loved to see the ahelps from that

One time I observed a wizard teleport to the station, change into civilian clothes, ask the hop to join sec (with the old "someone stole my ID" routine), and spend the ENTIRE ROUND playing as a normal sec officer, arresting tiders and so on, without using his spells EVEN ONCE until the now extended round ended naturally

This was a long time ago, but what would be the headmins' stance on something like this?

i don't personally care what an antag does, as long as they make a minimum of effort towards actually advancing the round(vague i know but how can you more specifically define it?) instead of pretending not to be an antag. while i can press a button and spawn more traitors, it'd be better if admin intervention wasn't required at all

EDIT: i guess to elaborate on my point an admin shouldn't feel forced to add a bunch more antags simply because one of them decided that the thing they opted in for isn't what they want to do

surprise surprise

Suicide wiz was banned because it was largely OOC. This is not.

imsxz wrote:i do genuinely believe that friendly antags are an issue, I'm not salty over the wizard suicide ruling as I have never suicided as a wizard and have no intention to. I never made a comment on friendly antags before because I was under the impression that solo antags are allowed to do that type of thing if they want but recent events have taught me the general idea of "frowned upon" ways of carrying out your solo antagonist rounds.

the giving your uplink to HOS was just an example, I saw it happen fairly recently and that's why I mentioned it. It doesn't have to be directly helpful like that, when I say friendly antag I refer to not making an attempt to drive any conflict in the round, be it negligence or choice.

if you have no desire to preform your objectives OR ignite any conflict in the round, why bother enabling antagonist? It'd be better off on someone who intends to antagonize the round in whatever way they see fit.

I think having that "license to grief" is somewhat important. I usually pull some major antagonizing during my traitor rounds, but sometimes I enjoy rolling traitor just because I have a free "fuck you" card to pull whenever somebody is being a major asshole. When you just wanna do your job but someone's being retarded, annoying or just plain rude, there's nothing more cathartic than blasting the CMO with a hellsmoke, the chef with a deathnettle, or running the SM on pure CO2 and keeping it stable just because you can't get banned for it.

Besides, with the number of tators that spawn in highpop, there are more than enough antagonists to keep the round moving.

We shouldn't infringe on rule 4 on either end of the spectrum. In a similar way to there being unfun and fun ways to murderbone, there are fun and unfun ways to friendly antag. We let players choose between the former, we should also allow the latter.

If they are making an effort to complete their objective(s) than they should be free to do so in any manner that befits them, if the Wizard wants use his magic to barter or threaten the station into giving him what he wants, so be it, if they trick the crew into thinking they are a regular joe and stealthing the whole round then they deserve a round of applesauce. It's 2d spessmans, not a michael bay movie, random explosions every 10 minutes doesn't make things better.

new wizard gimmick: stealth in there as an assistant with a bunch of robeless spells and stay low-key for ages, be cooperative, maybe even get a job, let the crew think it's extended, right up until the point where some dipshit decides to randomly disarm you or steal your shit or whatever other "I'm just instigating a minor conflict :^)" shitheaddery at which point use your grief licence to fucking ruin that one guy in particular

Lone antagonists can do whatever they want. Short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals.

Oh hey it says whatever I want.
So I can be a serial killer
or a traitor that hunts other traitors
or a normal civilian who turned down the Syndicate's offer, but covertly kept the uplink.
I can turn on the holodeck and lay on the beach.

WHATEVER I WANT.

not worth fucking with rule 4 for

Nothing wrong with creating more antagonists if none of the current ones are up to anything.

Terry had an issue with this where almost none of the players would act too antagonistically because dying would mean they were done playing for the day due to how long rounds were.

If an admin notices an antag being friendly and not driving any conflict maybe they should do something to/around/with them to drive some conflict. This should be reserved for antags who clearly aren't doing anything at all. I'm not sure if this could be done without there being complaints of admin-buse.

I do agree that antags should be allowed to do anything they want absolutely though. If someone wants to be a friendly antag there shouldn't be any OOC penalty for that. However an admin creating some kind of IC conflict to force their hand might not be bad.

what if I want to be the slow-burn force of "escalation policy doesn't apply to me, bitch"

it's so much more satisfying if they deserve it

ITT Lexia “I won’t murderbone as ninja” Black whining about people playing the game the way they want to play

If someone literally just walks up to the HoS and gives them their uplink for no reason just use badminnery to send another agent to kill them for defecting, make something interesting out of it

Otherwise what you're proposing is quite vague and feels like you're saying the only acceptable ways to play antag are to overtly do objectives or random acts of violence. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Different people have different play styles, maybe I want to do my objectives while being as stealthy as possible and you need to accept that because it's not your antag round and it's my time to have fun my own way

Like 50% of rounds there's more conflict from non-antags than antags as it is. When I play sec 80% of fights I get into are with non-antags. One traitor out of 12 doing goofy shit instead of murderboning isn't bad.

I guess my point wasn't clear enough to get through to most of you.

If you wanna use your antag status as a bargaining chip to get admins to help with a silly gimmick, that's cool. Chances are it will improve the quality of the round in any regard. If you prefer to leave your antags on so you can throw escalation to the wind, that's also swell, because you're taking advantage of your antagonist status to do things that would normally get you banned.

My issue is only with people who enable antagonist with no means to make any use of it, I'll try asking again in hopes of getting a response for the third time. Why have antagonist enabled if you don't have any plans to take advantage of your status? If this question can't be answered by the person with antags disabled, surely they wouldn't mind an antag ban.

How do you intend on policing this? If questioned mid round anyone could say "long con" and then go off and do something.

Do you ban for a first offense? That's kind of crazy to ban someone for not causing enough mayhem for whichever admin is online when they do it once.
Do you ban just repeat offenders? Are there really enough specific people who repeatedly get antag and then do absolutely 0 antagonistic behavior? Or is it a noticable number of people who do it once in a blue moon and not repeatedly?
Do you warn people? "Hey bro, you aren't being destructive enough, go kill people before I antag ban you" "B-But I stole my objective without anyone seeing and I want to chill and escape with greentext" "Too bad, cause conflict because I think you make the round boring" - They did their objective but I would argue that quietly stealing your objective, not getting noticed, and harming no one is functionally the same as doing nothing with your antag round. You didn't cause conflict for anyone. You had fun, but you didn't cause anyone else to have fun and that's the core of this thread.

This seems impossible to enforce within the bounds of Rule 4 and good sense.

It could be handled the same way team antags are. No suiciding/afk without informing admins, bare minimum effort to take advantage of your antag status.

imsxz wrote:I guess my point wasn't clear enough to get through to most of you.

If you wanna use your antag status as a bargaining chip to get admins to help with a silly gimmick, that's cool. Chances are it will improve the quality of the round in any regard. If you prefer to leave your antags on so you can throw escalation to the wind, that's also swell, because you're taking advantage of your antagonist status to do things that would normally get you banned.

My issue is only with people who enable antagonist with no means to make any use of it, I'll try asking again in hopes of getting a response for the third time. Why have antagonist enabled if you don't have any plans to take advantage of your status? If this question can't be answered by the person with antags disabled, surely they wouldn't mind an antag ban.

just because other people dont play hyper powergamer like you does NOT mean you get to police them on how they want to use their traitor round.
>j-just listen guys!!
people have responded but apparently this isnt getting through:
antags.
can.
do.
whatever.
they.
want.
period. end of discussion. fuck off. you will not win this.

Eh this seems hard to enforce and counter to the idea of some of the antag types.

For instance: A hivemind really has to play it cool and cant go crazy HAM until late game.

As a traitor to avoid death I've ratted out other traitors and given my uplink, granted I was caught doing minor antag things to get into that situation.

Even if you make this a rule, I find enforcement near impossible on a fair clear scale. However maybe I'm not clever or imaginative enough to see how it can be done.

imsxz wrote:If this question can't be answered by the person with antags disabled, surely they wouldn't mind an antag ban.

We're already snowballing from 'ban suicide wizardry' to 'ban friendly boring antags' in a day. If this is a thing then, besides this being impossible to reasonably enforce, this will cause more issues unless MSO or headmins step their foot down.

If you're able to argue we should ban friendly boring antags then someone else will be able to argue why we should ban antags, who are too peaceful or not antagging enough (rest in peace any hopes of long term planning), if you succeed here. edit: when i say 'too peaceful or not antagging enough' i don't mean boring necessarily. It is possible to not make everyone wanna fucking die inside while being peaceful.

Even if you think that is ridiculous and I am a fucking autist with the iq of 20, are you really willing to take that chance in this community? Really? You are better off rule 0ing someone for what you describe than trusting this to not be abused. Maybe I just don't have a lot of faith in people here, though.

Is this a false flag thread to try and side swipe the job ban for wizard round start suicide?

friendly antag = hard to prove/enforce and so what it turns into a themed extended powder keg round?

suicide start wizard = easy to prove and not enjoyable for anyone. 5 minutes of no gameplay.

Job Ban wizard isnt even all that extreme since they are not playing wizard anyway.

Literally gaslighting hard off wizard ban its embarrassing

delaron wrote:Is this a false flag thread to try and side swipe the job ban for wizard round start suicide?

niknakflak says that imsxz is gaslighting off wiz ban

Eh, I doubt it.

In all seriousness, it is possible for Imsxz to be genuine and that they just had bad timing. It is also possible that they think the 'banning wizs who suicide' thing is dumb as well. Judging by the posts they make and what the topic is about, it's more likely to be the former since how EXACTLY would this change anything because friendly boring antags =/= wizards who suicide and waste their role.

tl;dr IMO, no this isn't a false flag thread in an attempt to bring suiciding wizards back, but you know, that's just IMO. Imsxz doesn't even seem like the type of person who would like that shit from what I know.
EDIT:

delaron wrote:would appreciate leaving the personal attacks and name calling out.

alright. I meant nothing by it so my bad. When I called it autistic, I just meant it sounded a bit dumb. Not that 'these nerds smh smh'

Ayy Lemoh wrote:

delaron wrote:Is this a false flag thread to try and side swipe the job ban for wizard round start suicide?

niknakflak says that imsxz is gaslighting off wiz ban

ok this sounds a bit autistic to be honest.

In all seriousness, it is possible for Imsxz to be genuine and that they just had bad timing. It is also possible that they think the 'banning wizs who suicide' thing is dumb as well. Judging by the posts they make and what the topic is about, it's more likely to be the former since how EXACTLY would this change anything because friendly boring antags =/= wizards who suicide and waste their role.

tl;dr IMO, no this isn't a fucking false flag thread in an attempt to bring suiciding wizards back, but you know, that's just IMO. Imsxz doesn't even seem like the type of person who would like that shit from what I know.

Opinion noted. Please note I asked a question based on context of timing. I am absolutely content to leave it as a coincidence.

I've stated my take on both items and would appreciate leaving the personal attacks and name calling out.

PKPenguin321 wrote:

ShadowDimentio wrote:Yes but only solo antags. Friendly wizards are omega gay, but friendly non-team antags are ok IMO.

this is a good position and a good compromise between a full ban/no ban.

solo antags are expected to drive the conflict for the entire round, so if they fuck around like an idiot instead of doing that, the round will go nowhere and they're just wasting everybodys time

oh and to add to this, team antags shouldnt be allowed to be friendly if they're explicitly expected not to be, IE a rev healing a head of staff when other revs are actively trying to kill them because "im friendly guys"

solo antags should be free to be friendly though

PKPenguin321 wrote:oh and to add to this, team antags shouldnt be allowed to be friendly if they're explicitly expected not to be, IE a rev healing a head of staff when other revs are actively trying to kill them because "im friendly guys"

solo antags should be free to be friendly though

to be fair that's covered under "team antagonists can do what they want as long as it doesn't harm their team" and has nothing to do with being friendly

like revs can have a neutral no-mans-land in cargo or something and not murder/convert the non-rev cargotechs if they so choose, there's nothing obligating revs to be hostile to neutral parties other than the fact that they're allowed to, so that's a situation where revolutionaries can be "friendly" without harming their team. (hell, on some more high-RP servers, I've been told that in their version of rev the team that attacks neutrals first is generally the one that loses since it forces people to pick a side and the side is generally not "those assholes who are killing people who didn't want to get involved")

First, they came for the suiciding wizards -- and I did not say anything, because I did not suicide as wizard..

Then, they came for the friendly antags -- and I did not say anything, because I was not friendly as antag..