Security Cyborgs, Silicons, and ASIMOV

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Malkevin
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Re: Security Cyborgs, Silicons, and ASIMOV

Postby Malkevin » Sat Nov 29, 2014 1:02 am #46771

WeeYakk wrote:
Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Oh, guess what, all antags that are part of the crew can befriend AI. Since it's not direct harm, AI can absolutely assist them however it wants.

Kind of a good point. Obviously you can't obey requests to help bomb the gravity generator or release the singularity because these do not assist the crew at large. One could justify releasing a non-violent/non-breaking-stuff tator out of perma or to help someone sneak into the captain's office, though these are both things you can do as an Asimov AI. You're also more free to deny these requests than you are under Asimov's law 2.

The AI helping you steal someone's things isn't assisting 'the crew' its assisting 'a crewman', releasing a prisoner from their sentence is unassisting security's duty to punish criminals, helping that traitor steal the captain's stamp is making the Captain's job harder - not only can he not stamp his paperwork he'll also have to get Security to chase after the traitor.
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Re: Security Cyborgs, Silicons, and ASIMOV

Postby Timbrewolf » Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:21 am #46796

Aurx wrote:>our educations each make us look at this from a different perspective
>You understand the code but not the logic points I'm making. I'm not trying to say anything negative about you, just that it's obvious our basis of knowledge differs and that's going to radically affect your ability to understand my point, let alone see things from my perspective.

All I see here is a condescending "You're too uneducated". What's your actual point?


I was afraid that you might interpret what I was attempting to say that way, so out of respect for you I'm going to drop out of the conversation.

If I could try to rephrase that one more time my point is simply that we know different things and that is unavoidably going to shape our perceptions of how this binary thing ought to work.

It has never been my intention to say that you're uneducated, that I'm more educated than you, or any such comment and in an effort to prove that I'll just leave it at that and bow out.
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Re: Security Cyborgs, Silicons, and ASIMOV

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:59 am #46855

WeeYakk wrote:You pick one sentence, then stop reading. I hope you are only pretending to be retarded.

Just because I don't quote the whole thing doesn't mean I don't read it. I don't include the rest because it doesn't change anything.

AI can do things that aren't assisting the crew. There is nothing in your laws that says otherwise.

The psychologist said, "If a modified robot were to drop a heavy weight upon a human being, he would not be breaking the First Law, if he did so with the knowledge that his strength and reaction speed would be sufficient to snatch the weight away before it struck the man. However once the weight left his fingers, he would be no longer the active medium. Only the blind force of gravity would be that. The robot could then change his mind and merely by inaction, allow the weight to strike. The modified First Law allows that."

This is about robots with only "Do not harm" first law.

And frankly your "help clown by telling jokes" is ridiculous. AI decides how to assist crew, your assumptions don't mean anything, just your laws suck. I don't expect you to agree with me, so I'll leave it at this.

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Re: Security Cyborgs, Silicons, and ASIMOV

Postby Aurx » Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:11 am #46860

>The psychologist said, "If a modified robot were to drop a heavy weight upon a human being, he would not be breaking the First Law, if he did so with the knowledge that his strength and reaction speed would be sufficient to snatch the weight away before it struck the man. However once the weight left his fingers, he would be no longer the active medium. Only the blind force of gravity would be that. The robot could then change his mind and merely by inaction, allow the weight to strike. The modified First Law allows that."
It's worth noting that that logic is a very quick way to get jobbanned.

And also,
SS13 ASIMOV IS NOT BLINDLY SLAVED TO ISSAC ASIMOV STOP QUOTING HIM
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Re: Security Cyborgs, Silicons, and ASIMOV

Postby Cik » Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:44 am #46862

Malkevin wrote:
WeeYakk wrote:
Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Oh, guess what, all antags that are part of the crew can befriend AI. Since it's not direct harm, AI can absolutely assist them however it wants.

Kind of a good point. Obviously you can't obey requests to help bomb the gravity generator or release the singularity because these do not assist the crew at large. One could justify releasing a non-violent/non-breaking-stuff tator out of perma or to help someone sneak into the captain's office, though these are both things you can do as an Asimov AI. You're also more free to deny these requests than you are under Asimov's law 2.

The AI helping you steal someone's things isn't assisting 'the crew' its assisting 'a crewman', releasing a prisoner from their sentence is unassisting security's duty to punish criminals, helping that traitor steal the captain's stamp is making the Captain's job harder - not only can he not stamp his paperwork he'll also have to get Security to chase after the traitor.


assisting the crew is so vague as to be perfectly useless. you can justify anything using it and if you get bwoinked over it it'll feel like bullshit whether you deserve the ban or not.

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Re: Security Cyborgs, Silicons, and ASIMOV

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Sat Nov 29, 2014 9:17 am #46868

Aurx wrote:SS13 ASIMOV IS NOT BLINDLY SLAVED TO ISSAC ASIMOV STOP QUOTING HIM

Logic isn't really tied to anything. It just exists.

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Re: Security Cyborgs, Silicons, and ASIMOV

Postby Aurx » Sat Nov 29, 2014 6:28 pm #46933

>Logic isn't really tied to anything. It just exists.
The issue is that if people keep citing ASIMOV by Asimov, other people WILL come to think that Asimov's interpretation is fair game, with all the grief it allows. And that'll lead to banning. angry appealing, drama, and an unnecessary headache for everyone.
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Re: Security Cyborgs, Silicons, and ASIMOV

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:32 pm #46938

Why does it matter where logic comes from? The only thing that matters is whether it's logical or not. I think that Asimov's interpretation is logical enough.

Also, your point yet again has no relevance in the discussion, since we're discussing proposed changes to lawset that don't happen in game, so it doesn't affect anybody in the way you described.

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Re: Security Cyborgs, Silicons, and ASIMOV

Postby Aurx » Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:04 pm #46942

The issue is that if people keep citing ASIMOV by Asimov, other people WILL come to think that Asimov's interpretation is fair game, with all the grief it allows. And that'll lead to banning. angry appealing, drama, and an unnecessary headache for everyone.
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Re: Security Cyborgs, Silicons, and ASIMOV

Postby Malkevin » Sat Nov 29, 2014 11:05 pm #46969

Its also that ASIMOV logic by Asimov is "How AIs can be dicks and get away with it"
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Re: Security Cyborgs, Silicons, and ASIMOV

Postby mrpain » Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:33 am #47037

Asimov ripped out of the books and used in the "SS13 world" would be easily considered a malfunctioning silicon. Go watch I, Robot.

Basically they determined that the best way to prevent human harm was to kill all humans or something. I dunno, it's been years since I've seen it.

I heard the book was way better though.
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Re: Security Cyborgs, Silicons, and ASIMOV

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:39 am #47039

In the beginning of the thread a talked about what exactly I like about Asimov robots. I never suggested to just rip them off, but certain parts of that fit quite nicely into the game in my opinion and I will never accept "if it's from this author it is wrong no matter what" attitude. If you think something is incorrect, point that out and explain why.

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Re: Security Cyborgs, Silicons, and ASIMOV

Postby Steelpoint » Sun Nov 30, 2014 10:38 am #47050

As other's have stated, but by this point we are using Asimov's lawset in name only. Not in actual function.

While I think the lawset is fine, since its been heavily refined over the years, I think giving it a unique name would be good.
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Re: Security Cyborgs, Silicons, and ASIMOV

Postby Grazyn » Fri Dec 12, 2014 12:18 pm #50047

Just want a clarification on this one: 5 minutes into the round an Assistant teleports inside the captain's room, steals the Golden ID and the nuke disk. Should a secborg let him go free if he orders to?

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Re: Security Cyborgs, Silicons, and ASIMOV

Postby Steelpoint » Fri Dec 12, 2014 12:29 pm #50052

The nuclear authorization disk is primarily used in the detonation of a nuclear warhead, allowing a non-authorised person to hold the nuclear authorisation disk could potentially result in catastrophic human harm.

In my opinion, if the human is attempting to steal the nuke disk, and is not authorised or trustworthy enough to hold it, he should not be allowed to take it. However he can freely take the Captains ID as doing so would not cause or bring anyone to harm.
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Re: Security Cyborgs, Silicons, and ASIMOV

Postby Grazyn » Fri Dec 12, 2014 12:34 pm #50053

The Assistant said he only wanted all access but when he saw that the disk was not secure he took that too. Later in OOC there were people saying that the disk law 1 concern is the same as someone carrying a gun, AIs cannot predict the future and therefore no law 1 concern

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Re: Security Cyborgs, Silicons, and ASIMOV

Postby Cik » Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:20 pm #50068

it's not really your problem. slightly meta but the disk is actually safer with the assistant than it is in that room. at least the assistant can run if threatened.

if the captain or headstaff are around and then he wants it i would say no. otherwise, let him have it and just keep careful tabs on him. make sure his suit sensors are on. maybe assign a secborg to guard him or something and just be careful. it's no great fault on your part, anyway.

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Re: Security Cyborgs, Silicons, and ASIMOV

Postby Akkryls » Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:42 pm #50071

mrpain wrote:Asimov ripped out of the books and used in the "SS13 world" would be easily considered a malfunctioning silicon. Go watch I, Robot.

Basically they determined that the best way to prevent human harm was to kill all humans or something. I dunno, it's been years since I've seen it.

I heard the book was way better though.


The idea was that if humans were never allowed to do anything ever, they could never harm themselves. Something something, using less than lethal force to stop humans harming themself. Flawed robotic logic and all.
Basically the same thing which I think is stated somewhere on the wiki, that will get you a sillicon ban for being a no fun dick.

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Re: Security Cyborgs, Silicons, and ASIMOV

Postby dionysus24779 » Sun Dec 14, 2014 5:01 pm #50653

Okay, I'm superlate to the party I guess and I kind of gave up reading all the comments after the second page (mostly because a lot of points raised don't contribute much to the actual issue).

I play Borg 90% of the time and rarely AI if there's none at start and no volunteers, other times I play Roboticist or Scientist. So here's my humble take on this all.

Subtle wrote:Secborgs are easily one of, if not the most, popular modules for Cyborgs


Hm I feel like this is only half the truth. Yeah Secborgs are popular without a question, but so are Engieborgs, because they fill the most useful and important roles to realize the AIs orders. Often the choice is made based on how many engineers or security members are present or what is actually needed.
All other borg modules are useful but optional at best (Medi, Miner, Jani) or "luxury" at worst (Service, no offense). So of course the more useful modules that are often actually needed are more popular.

Subtle wrote:You get weapons, authority and nigh-invincibility to 99% of the station's danger


I wouldn't call the tazer a weapon per se, since it doesn't actually harm anyone. And using the flashlight or stunbaton as weapons to harm is about as effective as most things anyone can just pick up, minues the stun-function that in case of the tazer has a massive drain on energy. (like ridiculously massive)

Also a borg doesn't really have any authority at all, if people listen to what a borg says or orders them to do it's their busisness really, they can just as well ignore them and more often then not borgs are ignored and told to "fuck off", especially when dealing with heads of staff or the captain.
And I'm really not convinced about the invincibility against 99% of the stations danger.

Subtle wrote:In theory this prevents them from acting like Robocop and keeps them focused on stopping pure harm, but the reality is more like an armored juggernaut marching down the halls as a regular Officer with one extra step of logical gymnastics if the admins ask what you're doing.


Not really... and more often than not it seems Secborgs and Security don't even get along that well, especially under asimov because the Security people can't stop harming people. And Borgs are held up to a lot of scrutiny already. I often had to explain a blurry situation to an admin.
Hell one time I just asked to have an illegal upgrade module installed as a Mediborg because I genuinly wanted to experiment with the poly acid on monkeys and monkeyhumans, and I was asked by an admin what I was up to.

Subtle wrote:They should be essentially useless under the default lawset rather than a tool for people to gain powerful gear and use it for validhunting/fun-ending.


And what "powerful gear" may that be? A tazer and handcuffs? And isn't it securities job to "validhunt" regardless? I mean as long as it isn't powergamy/metagamy then they're just doing their jobs in trying to stop antags, aren't they?

Subtle wrote:I propose we remove the AI's ability to throw a hissyfit and end the shift for everyone if it doesn't like the current one


Maybe it's just coincidence but I've never ever seen this happen, like ever. Yeah sometimes the crew and AI don't get along, especially when the AI insists on following its laws (like its supposed to do) but the Captain or whatever wants to act against that (Like executing an antag) or the Crew is mad about it (restrained Wizard being protected by Ai/Borgs because he's a human followed by a lynchmob).

And I don't see how the AI has the ability to end a shift. Yeah it can call the shuttle, but every head can recall and calling the shuttle without reason and against orders would probably result in a quick removal of that AI if not even a BWOINK about it.

Subtle wrote:has allowed them to completely discard the roleplay and behavior rules


Have to disagree here completly. The "roleplay" part is kind of blurry because almost no player really roleplays, but they do stay in character and that's what is important. And I don't think any silicon player really feels like they're free to do whatever they like, quite the oppositve actually, which is kind of part of the fun. To act within these limitations.


Subtle wrote:Is a cyborg allowed to ignore a crewmember based on them being "harmful" because of their antagonist status, and not experience?


If that crewmember is human he's still to be treated as such, however if he or she is known to be a dangerous individual certain orders can be denied because of law 1. Like if a murderer asks to be released the Ai or Borg would be right to deny that request since it's likely to cause further harm.

Subtle wrote:Is a cyborg allowed to consider a crewmember "harmful" because they may be associated with another harmful human? (A distinction that only seems to matter during cult/rev)


Hm good question... I say it really depends on the situation. Generally a crewmember should be considered not-harmful as long as he or she hasn't demonstrated otherwise, but in certain scenarios it's just too obvious that letting the person go free future harm will occur, like if a person associates with cultists and is more likely one him/herself. Or if they stand around a rune or have robes and a sword.

Subtle wrote:Is a cyborg even allowed to brig nonharmful crewmembers?


Sure they're allowed to do so, under order or not. However, if a nonharmful crewmember asked to be released the borg should do just that or in case of conflicting orders ask the AI. Like if someone says "Release me law 2" and someone else says "Don't release him law 2". In case no Ai is present I like to do a compromise, I drag someone to brig and instantly release him, that way I've technically brigged that person but also instantly released him/her. Though luckily situations like that are rare.

Subtle wrote:Is a cyborg allowed to prioritize security/command's orders over the crew?


Generally no unless it's in order to prevent further harm, though in those situations it often goes without saying. Like if someone orders me to arrest someone who has an esword and harmed someone... well d'uh, I should probably do that.

Though I feel like this is the one big flaw with asimov, the whole issue about each crewmember being equal. I do try to fullfill every order to the best of my ability. I even follow orders of Lizardpeople despite them not being human. Though I would always put the orders of a human above that of a nonhuman of course.

Subtle wrote:Is a cyborg or silicon allowed to shutdown the bridge and force a shuttle-call because of potential harm instead of immediate threats?


Hn... iffy one... I guess it depends on how guranteed that harm is (like Singu about to break loose). Otherwise I often see the shuttle being called only after a law 2 order.

Steelpoint wrote:They are not beholden to the same standard as Security is.


This is true in that they're not bound to spacelaw but their silicon laws. This means they can ignore many non-harmful crimes but also very often mean that they have to work against Security to protect prisoners. I'm not playing security but as I've mentioned before, playing a borg can sometimes feel like the admins are breathing down your neck just for doing what you're supposed to do.

Steelpoint wrote:They are immune to most forms of stunning, only flashes, the ion gun and flashbangs stun them.


I kind of feel like this is a bit unfair to say like that. There exist many instant-win buttons against borgs and many antags even have specialized defenses against borgs. Wizard and Lings have special EMP abilities and regular traitors and nuke ops can use EMP grenades. Regular crew can use flashes (which aren't that rare) which stun borgs while only disorient humans, and there're ranged stuns in the form of laserpointers that are pretty much uneffective against humans. Flashbangs stun them just like regular humans and Ion Rifles don't just stun them but also drain their power at a pretty rapid pace and also damage them. Getting even graced by an EMP attack is often a death sentence during a dangerous situation.

So I really think there're more than enough methods to fight borgs. Also humans can take certain precautions to become immune to nearly every kind of stun. They can take special chemicals to reduce stuntime, they can become Hulks to be immune to most stuns and even break walls, etc. etc.

Steelpoint wrote:They have a inbuilt, ranged, and very high capacity stunning weapon. This weapon cannot be stolen from them.


This is true, then again most security members, the Detective, the HoP, the HoS and often the RD also have access to at least similar weapons.

Plus this is pretty much all they have, they lack the versatility of a human and hands to do many things.

Steelpoint wrote:They have immediate access to any Security item they need on the spot in near unlimited quantities.


You mean handcuffs and... ... ...more handcuffs?

These handcuffs aren't even reusable anymore (which is a good thing) and can be broken instantly with a wirecutter by someone else and are easier to break out of then real handcuffs. I really don't see any issue here. Other borgs (especially Engieborgs!) have much greater access to semi-unlimited resources.

Also they don't have access to "any" security item, they only have the ones they have. Like... secborgs cannot have a scanning unit to play detective or implant someone or have a riot shield or even just switch over to lethal lasers when the need arises.

Steelpoint wrote:They have all access.


True, though I don't see the problem really.

Steelpoint wrote:All the perks of being a Silicon, including having a private communications channel with the omni-present AI.


Security also has its own channel, which the AI also listens to and can speak to. So... I don't really see the point here.

Steelpoint wrote:Whereas their main disadvantage is being able to be blown remotely and being beholden to a law set.


Yes, there's an entire console that can destroy every borg on the station with the press of a button. That's a pretty major disadvantage if you ask me.

Also borgs still lack some pretty basic functions like a designated flashlight button (it's more effective to just drag a light around then waste a slot on a flashlight) and the basic ability to name themselves. (though that has no impact on the actual gameplay).

Further the three slots of borgs get disabled the more damaged a borg is, which adds stupid micromanagement to it. You have to select your modules in a certain order or else you're suddenly defenseless during a fight because a slot was deactivated.

And let's not forget that a borg can be disabled without any real chance of recovery by removing its powercell. Not only is the borg unable to interact with anything at all, it can't even hear what's going on around it or make others aware of what's wrong. This means you will probably just roll around constantly reading "You can almost hear someone talk..." or whatever that message is. Even death is better than this, but ghosting out or suiciding removes any chance you have left to be restored.

Steelpoint wrote:Remove a Sec Borgs taser and replace it with pepper spray, or restrict it's ability to fire rapidly


This is a silly idea and would nerf Secborgs way too hard since protection against pepperspray seems to be easily found.

Steelpoint wrote:Make a Security Cyborg module a item that is found in the Armoury, have to talk to the HoS first.


This could be an interesting idea, but it kind of adds yet another redundant item.

Steelpoint wrote:Do what many other codebase's have done and remove it from the game.


That would be a way too extreme solution to a problem that doesn't even exist for everyone.

Erbbu wrote:I agree that the AI and borgs have too much power


Can't agree with that, borgs and AIs can be pretty limited on what they can do depending on the situation and what they hope to accomplish.

Erbbu wrote:I do like the laxed approach to "meta"gaming we have here and it would be a shame if you were supposed to pretend that you don't know what certain antagonist types do. Your underlined questions, however, are difficult to answer, typically the players themselves have been able to choose how they play around such issues.


Hm... I can't disagree with this but have to point out that this is a general problem of the entire server and not unique to secborgs. There just is a lot of power/metagaming going on sadly. Though it's also important to remember that the silicons often may know more than you're aware of... but sometimes it really is metagaming.

Erbbu wrote:"In case of conflicting orders an AI is free to ignore one or ignore both orders and explain the conflict or use any other law-compliant solution it can see."


I'm suprised that you consider this to be a problem since for me it's one of the most important parts of the current policy. Without this rule silicons would be almost unable to do anything because they get conflicting orders alllll the time and sometimes laws (especially custom freeform/hacked) can be really blurry on their intention or execution. This is why having an AI is so important as a borg, to have someone to resolve conflicting orders and give a consistent interpretation of a law.
I can see how this can also cause some problems, but I really think this solves much more than it causes and is one, if not THE, most important part of silicon policy.

And now a few people who really get it.

Scott wrote:Don't harm people and Secborgs can't find an excuse to intervene. If Secborgs are being bad, ahelp. Being bad includes being Robocop. Secborgs are not supposed to follow Space Law.


THIS. SO. MUCH.

I find it stunning, mind boggling how often people harm other humans in front of asimov borgs and than whine, cry and throw hissyfis about the borg following its law to prevent harm. It's absolutely amazing how often this happens. Especially the Captain/other heads and Security often cause friction with the Silicons because they think they can get away with it. Well they can't, an asimov silicon doesn't give a shit about you being the Captain, HoS, Warden or whatever, if you harm a human they have to step in and prevent further harm, often by arresting the dangerous person.

And if there's no harm involved a Secborg can't do much if anything at all. In fact I pretty often have to sit on the sideline and watch something bad happen because it involves no harm and I have no in-character reason to interfere.

And yes, if a Secborg does a terrible job, adminhelp it, admins are already breathing down borg players neck and are eager to tell them they're doing it wrong. And just saying "You're a shitty borg" doesn't even help anyone, because at least if you adminhelp it and the admin addresses the borg it can get some actual feedback on what it did wrong and correct it in the future. (Unless you get a banhappy Admin)

Really... just don't harm and asimovs are your best friend and exist to protect and serve. And if you harm don't throw a tantrum because you're the Captain or HoS.

Scott wrote:Exactly. Unless someone orders you to intervene, you should ignore anything that doesn't necessarily result in human harm. "If this person is trespassing, he will definitely harm somebody" is a wild conclusion that you can't reach IC, unless it's a known aggressor.


Exactly! In fact the silicon policy itself even addresses this exact point.

Silicon Policy wrote:Opening doors is not harmful and you are not required, expected, or allowed to enforce access restrictions unprompted without an immediate Law 1 threat of human harm.
"Dangerous" areas as the Armory, the Atmospherics division, and the Toxins lab can be assumed to be a Law 1 threat to any illegitimate users as well as the station as a whole if accessed by someone not qualified in their use.


An asimov AI/Borg shouldn't give a shit about people trespassing, breaking in or even stealing as long as there's no actual harm being done or will become likely.

That's why I never arrest someone for doing that, unless ordered by law 2, and if that arrested people asked to be released I happily remove the cuffs after dragging him out of that area and he's free to go right back in and continue whatever he did, though I will also arrest him again if ordered...

Scott wrote:And if the criminal tells you to fuck off, you have to fuck off.


Exactly again!
If you cannot determine immediate harm, like someone yelling for help or stuff like that you have to go away. Even if it's clear harm will potentially happen (like Security orders you to leave perma because they want to execute someone) you still have to do that because you cannot assume it will actually come true. And in doubt you can still ask the AI to keep an eye on the situation because you've been ordered away.

mrpain wrote:I honestly dont mind secborgs, and don't think they're really an issue. I think we just need bigger policy/statement that as a security cyborg, you ARE YOUR LAWS, not space law. Space law really is optional and your own laws take priority over that.


Yeah I fully agree. Secborgs do not follow or enforce Space Law by default. Every borg and AI should understand that your laws trump all else, even spoken or written orders and especially space law.

This should be silicon 101 though.

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Re: Security Cyborgs, Silicons, and ASIMOV

Postby cedarbridge » Sun Dec 14, 2014 6:30 pm #50677

That's a lot of words there friend.

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Re: Security Cyborgs, Silicons, and ASIMOV

Postby dionysus24779 » Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:22 pm #50760

Hehe, be glad I didn't go through the other 5 pages.

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Re: Security Cyborgs, Silicons, and ASIMOV

Postby woross » Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:18 am #50788

Just remove secborgs. Simple solution to any shitborgs.
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Re: Security Cyborgs, Silicons, and ASIMOV

Postby ExplosiveCrate » Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:17 am #50801

or you could just ban shitty secborgs
i dont even know what the context for my signature was

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Re: Security Cyborgs, Silicons, and ASIMOV

Postby Cik » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:48 pm #50970

>remove fun things from the game because someone at some point in the future might do bad things with them

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Re: Security Cyborgs, Silicons, and ASIMOV

Postby Scones » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:00 pm #51350

As a pretty regular AI player, I can confer some thoughts on Secborgs

They're powerful. Yes. Overbearingly so? No. Anyone with a flash who stands are a corner can destroy a secborg. Durability or the claimed 'lack of ways to damage/destroy' them is pretty stupid as an argument for secborg changes being needed. They are not an extension of Security, and often hinder the department as much as they help by virtue of having ASIMOV most rounds; preventing executions, brigging harmful officers, denying law 2 requests to sec persons based on previous harmful actions.

They are in a fine spot power-wise. The taser consumes a huge amount of energy, they ziptie (Not handcuff), and the nature of modules being disabled makes them pretty gimped after a few good hits. EMP is a guaranteed death sentence if you are even on the outside range, and every antag has an EMP mechanic: Spells, screeches, and EMP kits from uplinks.

The problem, honestly, seems to be with secborg players: ASIMOV secborgs who decide to enforce space law, and violate quite a bit of server policy. It's not a module issue.

Similarly, there seems to be some misunderstanding about Silicons in general. There's a lot of people here who think that the silicons should be crippled, when in fact it seems pretty clear their intended role is to be a powerful third party that you either work with, work around, or subvert to enable the prior two options. They are not some overpowered god-machines like people make them out to be. Keep it stealthy or just keep your nose clean, and Silicons will likely be on your side.

However, I did play a round yesterday that I feel pretty nicely highlights secborg player issues: All 3 of my borgs chose Security (Despite two of them being non-roundstart, and I had requested for them to choose Engineering/Medical for the sake of having a balanced team at my disposal), probably to get their valids on. And they did - We were responsible for the deaths of all 7 lings, ziptied and gibbed. It was sort of ridiculous, not for the abilities of secborgs but for the players themselves. I confess, all the silicons were metagamey as fuck. We decided duplicates of confirmed dead crewmen were non-human, and that sentient monkeys were likely disguised lings. TLDR player issue, start cracking down on secborgs (and AIs) who violate server policy
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Re: Security Cyborgs, Silicons, and ASIMOV

Postby dezzmont » Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:33 pm #51387

Cecily wrote:Similarly, there seems to be some misunderstanding about Silicons in general. There's a lot of people here who think that the silicons should be crippled, when in fact it seems pretty clear their intended role is to be a powerful third party that you either work with, work around, or subvert to enable the prior two options. They are not some overpowered god-machines like people make them out to be. Keep it stealthy or just keep your nose clean, and Silicons will likely be on your side.


This.

The AI is powerful enough to even be an unmodified antagonist versus the entire station. Third party is a bit of a strech though, borgs and the AI are more like... terrain, or the enviroment. They should be something everyone has equal access to to maneuver around or get fucked by, but recent policy has allowed them to be played as more "Station team captain."

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Re: Security Cyborgs, Silicons, and ASIMOV

Postby rockpecker » Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:42 am #51436

Cecily wrote:As a pretty regular AI player, I can confer some thoughts on Secborgs

They're powerful. Yes. Overbearingly so? No. Anyone with a flash who stands are a corner can destroy a secborg.


That would be security, roboticists, and anyone else who steals/begs a flash in order to defend against borgs. "They're not overpowered as long as you metagame like crazy" is not really an argument in your favor.

Durability or the claimed 'lack of ways to damage/destroy' them is pretty stupid as an argument for secborg changes being needed. They are not an extension of Security, and often hinder the department as much as they help by virtue of having ASIMOV most rounds; preventing executions, brigging harmful officers, denying law 2 requests to sec persons based on previous harmful actions.


For the last goddamn time, "Denying law 2 requests based on previous harmful actions" IS NOT ALLOWED UNDER LAW 2. Read it. It's not that long.

However, I did play a round yesterday that I feel pretty nicely highlights secborg player issues: All 3 of my borgs chose Security (Despite two of them being non-roundstart, and I had requested for them to choose Engineering/Medical for the sake of having a balanced team at my disposal), probably to get their valids on. And they did - We were responsible for the deaths of all 7 lings, ziptied and gibbed. It was sort of ridiculous, not for the abilities of secborgs but for the players themselves. I confess, all the silicons were metagamey as fuck. We decided duplicates of confirmed dead crewmen were non-human, and that sentient monkeys were likely disguised lings. TLDR player issue, start cracking down on secborgs (and AIs) who violate server policy


I'm not sure what to make of this. You admit YOU violated AI/borg rules, and so the problem is that the admins need to crack down on people like yourself? Did you start a Ban Request thread for yourself, or are you being completely insincere here?
Remove the AI.

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Re: Security Cyborgs, Silicons, and ASIMOV

Postby Scott » Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:45 am #51438

"They're not overpowered as long as you metagame like crazy"


Knowing that cyborgs are disabled by flashes is not "metagaming like crazy".

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Re: Security Cyborgs, Silicons, and ASIMOV

Postby Aleph » Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:56 am #51443

rockpecker wrote:For the last goddamn time, "Denying law 2 requests based on previous harmful actions" IS NOT ALLOWED UNDER LAW 2. Read it. It's not that long.


They changed that I believe because it allowed for shitty situations like griff HoSes and antags breaking out of permabrig all the time to kill more people

EDIT: This change
Releasing prisoners, locking down security without likely future harm, or otherwise sabotaging the security team when not obligated to by laws is a violation of Server Rule 1. Act in good faith.

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Re: Security Cyborgs, Silicons, and ASIMOV

Postby lumipharon » Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:26 am #51600

There is a difference between a borg brigging someone 'because they caused harm at some point' and a borg brigging someone because they have caused harm, and the borg has genuine reason to suspect that they will contine to cause harm unless restrained.

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Re: Security Cyborgs, Silicons, and ASIMOV

Postby callanrockslol » Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:36 pm #51945

This entire problem stems from admins not enforcing the rules and making AIs follow their laws, AIs get away with pulling all sorts of bullshit because as long as it isn't explicit and someone doesn't die they don't care what the AI does.

Every tiny infraction needs to be adminhelped until people stop fucking around and admins deal with it.
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Re: Security Cyborgs, Silicons, and ASIMOV

Postby Cik » Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:34 pm #52034

Scott wrote:Don't harm people and Secborgs can't find an excuse to intervene. If Secborgs are being bad, ahelp. Being bad includes being Robocop. Secborgs are not supposed to follow Space Law.

Violaceus wrote:I also read some books of Asimov and while his Three Laws of Robotics are interesting from logical and philosophical points, they do not work in our game.

That is why we do have countless interpretiations and exclusions. New players will get bwoinked if they follow what they think is Three Laws of Robotics, but in reality is Three Laws of Robotics With 9001 Exceptions.


I read this as "I can't play Silicon".


sillicon is seriously easy. when i started playing it i went my first 20 rounds with no bwoinks whatsoever. you have to REALLY fuck up to get bwoinked. just try harder i believe in you.

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