Movement Speed

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Arianya
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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Arianya » Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:15 pm #456035

Kel wrote:assuming every player plays every single day without ever taking a break that lasts any amount of time, guess those guys get fucked huh


We can't account for every use case indefinitely. Move speed isn't the only change you'll have to adapt to rapidly if you take a prolonged break from SS13.
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Re: Movement Speed

Postby confused rock » Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:47 pm #456038

As sick as that burn is it's hard to give feedback for movement speed changes when you actually can't tell the difference.
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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Kel » Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:10 pm #456052

Arianya wrote:
Kel wrote:assuming every player plays every single day without ever taking a break that lasts any amount of time, guess those guys get fucked huh


We can't account for every use case indefinitely. Move speed isn't the only change you'll have to adapt to rapidly if you take a prolonged break from SS13.



pointless compromise
changes happen suddenly all the time
antagonists are added and removed
mechanics are changed
sprites are different
what is the point in being sneaky about it? to ease people into it? by your own admission it is accepted that people just have to deal with sudden stark changes to the game.
doing this in such a slow, sneaky way gives me the impression that its being acknowledged to be a undesirable change to the playerbase or at the very least its some sort of misguided way to avoid controversy

and to make it clear: i dont want movespeed to change, as ss13 movespeed has never been slower than it is in the current era and it seems like everyone just seems to be having issues with muh projectiles which could just be solved by making projectiles function in a sane way (aka actually go fast)
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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Steelpoint » Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:58 pm #456057

Movement speed HAS been far lower in the past.

As I noted prior, we used to have lower movement speed as the default. However server updates and config standerizations unintentionally resulted in our original, lower, movement speeds being accidently reverted.
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Re: Movement Speed

Postby skoglol » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:08 am #456159

I like the current movespeed. That's not to say I won't like a lower movespeed, but it needs to be done properly. Movespeed will affect things like moving against spacewind, lavaland and so on, and just changing it in the config without tweaking these things could be catastrophic. During the summer, I played a bit on yogstation who have lower movespeed than tg. If you took any kind of slowdown, including hardsuits, it felt terrible. You couldn't move into higher pressures, took forever to get anywhere and it just geniunely wasn't very fun. I have never felt so useless as an engineer as when I couldn't even get to the SM to fix it.

I've not gone through every post in the thread so this might have already been mentioned, but if projectile speed is a problem maybe a projectile speed change is in order? Maybe a middle ground between projectile speed and movespeed.

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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Karp » Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:05 am #456195

Nilons wrote:Someone pulling the person youre arresting and spamming help intent on them while they soak up disabler fire will put a stop to that, as well as it still being relatively easy to dodge disablers


on that, the pulling thing is an issue yes and the only major weakpoint of disablers. But I said spamming disablers down a hallway with pixel projectiles on all three tiles to prevent people from fleeing, you have 20 disabler shots and you need to land 3 within a decent timeframe to stun someone who is healthy(40 stamina damage per shot, 3 shots=120 stamina damage)

But now I'm now mildly concerned that this plus the slip nerf will be a straight up massive buff to murderboning, especially on lowpop

Even with a slower movespeed people still won't talk to you/security unless they want to talk to you/security

I don't know what you mean by "depth and strategy" specifically but bullet dodging is already a thing as a form of strategy/action for the unarmed which is difficult to succed in but works with current movespeed. While it does suck to chase a moving target it feels like if the change is too hard it turns combat into an affair of "Who shot first?" due to the undodgability of weapon fire with reduced movespeed. It encourages people to straight up wordlessly blast eachother before the other party is aware of combat even more than with our current movespeed or they lose, which kinda feels like it runs contrary to what you want(More player engagement and skill diversity in combat)

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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Kel » Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:36 am #456205

the problem with skill expression in ranged combat is there isnt any for the shooter. there is no real chance for impressive accuracy when the projectiles consume 1 of 3 possible tiles in the average width of a shootout while also moving just barely faster than the person you're shooting at. you'll often notice shootouts at places like the bar end up being way more of a mess due to the sheer amount of tiles for you to sidestep to.
ranged combat is a sheer guessing game for the shooter, disablers have the benefit of consistency because you can keep guessing but your guesses consume every available option through sheer quantity (like buying more spaces in a roulette wheel).

what am i trying to get at here? moving slower will make firearms better in the worst possible way, projectiles are still very reactable, you just will have a harder time making more of a clearing, which results in the same old guessing game style of shootout but less amount of guesses.
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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Karp » Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:09 am #456210

Kel wrote:there is no real chance for impressive accuracy when the projectiles consume 1 of 3 possible tiles in the average width of a shootout while also


With pixel projectiles you can get a projectile to hit people on 2 tiles if you aim and shoot properly, it only happens for a second or two of travel time i believe

Which is why i said the disabler spam bit, if it goes well you can stack someone with 2-3 disablers by the time they see them depending on the tile they're on

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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Malkraz » Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:34 am #456217

Karp wrote:I don't know what you mean by "depth and strategy" specifically but bullet dodging is already a thing as a form of strategy/action for the unarmed which is difficult to succed in but works with current movespeed. While it does suck to chase a moving target it feels like if the change is too hard it turns combat into an affair of "Who shot first?" due to the undodgability of weapon fire with reduced movespeed. It encourages people to straight up wordlessly blast eachother before the other party is aware of combat even more than with our current movespeed or they lose, which kinda feels like it runs contrary to what you want(More player engagement and skill diversity in combat)

Exactly what I had been saying. Like we can see with many other game genres (especially FPS), lowering movement speed necessarily shrinks the skill gap and makes the game much more about things such as who clicked first or who got the lucky roll first. As I outlined before a change like this in NO WAY adds more strategy to combat, instead it limits it. I don't even understand how this thought came about to begin with, if you could move 1 tile per second would it be more strategic?

Kel wrote:the problem with skill expression in ranged combat is there isnt any for the shooter. there is no real chance for impressive accuracy when the projectiles consume 1 of 3 possible tiles in the average width of a shootout while also moving just barely faster than the person you're shooting at. you'll often notice shootouts at places like the bar end up being way more of a mess due to the sheer amount of tiles for you to sidestep to.
ranged combat is a sheer guessing game for the shooter, disablers have the benefit of consistency because you can keep guessing but your guesses consume every available option through sheer quantity (like buying more spaces in a roulette wheel).
what am i trying to get at here? moving slower will make firearms better in the worst possible way, projectiles are still very reactable, you just will have a harder time making more of a clearing, which results in the same old guessing game style of shootout but less amount of guesses.

I disagree that shooting gameplay purely comes down to "guesses" when you can analyze the other guy's movements and predict where he'll be or use smartly placed shots to limit his options and push him in certain directions (e.g shooting between him and a doorway so he doesn't have the option to go through it while also giving him fewer spaces away from the door to avoid the next shot), but you're right that this would be a horrible way to buff them.
Franklin Khan says, " Well I know who I'm metagrudging from now on "
Istoprocent: You and Rock Steele definitely metabuddies, proving metacomms will take time but eventually people will figure it out.
Declan Cooper asks, " does rock steel have autism? "
Erik489: Malkraz, I gotta ask, and please be honest. Do you metacomm with Rock Steel?
Lumbermancer: also rock should be killed every round
Willy Willee says, " And he kept spam-tabling me, while his metafriend came over "
ATHATH: Rock Steel, I fucking hate you with a passion. I was alive on the station for less than a minute, you absolute cunt you CREMATING ASSHOLE I GENUINELY *HATE* YOU
Adam Karlsson says, " i just want rock " Shaun McFall says, " you know you'll get harshly punished for this right " Adam Karlsson says, " oh i know "
Aidan Duncan says, " Once again, Rock Steel is the fucking worst person on the station "
Twaticus: malk i hate you why do you ruin everything
Alijah Petrov says, " Actually then, im just gonna start robusting rock steel every time i see him "
Adolph Weinstein says, " I like how we have a wizard onboard, and the only person causing shit is Rock "
[Common] Most Likely Malfunction states, " BORG RETURN TO THE CLONEER AND ISPOSE OF ROCK STEELS BODY. "

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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Steelpoint » Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:54 am #456265

There is no real way to guess someone else's movement patterns at our current high speed since there is no penalty to rapidly changing your movement. If anything our combat has a very floaty feel to it in general. The only other SS13 variants I know that do combat to a better degree are Colonial Marines and Lifeweb, but those both have their own issues.

There is a critical difference between high speed FPS games like Quake or Tribes, and us. In those games there's conservation of movement, whereas here there is none of that. In tribes when you jetpack around there is a inherent inheritance of gravity and movement that makes it very possible to predict where someone is going to move, irrespective if they are in the air or on the ground, and that allows a skilled player to predict and attack ahead of someone.

On this server, you can instantly turn on a dime and do a full 180 degree run with no slow down or movement penalty. It is impossible to predict movement and thus you are just firing your guns and hoping the enemy does not react or move fast enough. This is exacerbated if you are chasing someone and they are firing against you. As you run away from projectiles you are not only practically outrunning them but it is far easier to dodge them than if you are running into projectiles.

If we are concerned that slower speed will make stun weapons far more powerful, we could examine reworking stun weapons to not be as instantly a 1 hit win. Perhaps making it that a standard ranged stun will, if you take a shit, knock you on the ground and slow you down but not stop you from moving. Just as a random guess of a idea.
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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Shadowflame909 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:17 am #456288

Steelpoint wrote:There is a critical difference between high speed FPS games like Quake or Tribes, and us. In those games there's conservation of movement, whereas here there is none of that. In tribes when you jetpack around there is a inherent inheritance of gravity and movement that makes it very possible to predict where someone is going to move, irrespective if they are in the air or on the ground, and that allows a skilled player to predict and attack ahead of someone.


Won't this just lead to even more power gaming though?

TDLR: Security Mc Mainshit blocks off my exits with laser guns and will always win every encounter.

I guess this entire effort is to slow the game down but this sounds like we're trying to turn /tg/ into a traditional game of chess!

If we're changing from a game of randomness and RNG into a game of wits and accurate predictions, how will the dum dum folks like me survive here! Will I be forced to move to Hippie so that my old ways of not really thinking too much into my actions and enjoying the game without having to read up on a strategical guide to win an encounter against a pro!

I didn't come here for LoL or Dota. I came here for other reasons that I am still thinking about.
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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Malkraz » Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:58 am #456302

Steelpoint wrote:There is no real way to guess someone else's movement patterns at our current high speed since there is no penalty to rapidly changing your movement.

Malkraz wrote:But of course to the unrobust this will just look like random spamming

Steelpoint wrote:There is a critical difference between high speed FPS games like Quake or Tribes, and us. In those games there's conservation of movement, whereas here there is none of that.

Plenty of the old arena shooters had little to no transition time when changing directions. TF2 has a small delay and it's almost imperceptible when looking at an opponent.
Steelpoint wrote:It is impossible to predict movement and thus you are just firing your guns and hoping the enemy does not react or move fast enough.

Malkraz wrote:But of course to the unrobust this will just look like random spamming

Steelpoint wrote:If we are concerned that slower speed will make stun weapons far more powerful, we could examine reworking stun weapons to not be as instantly a 1 hit win.

Alternatively we just rework the areas that have problems and don't bother changing the current movement speed because it's fine as it is and slowing it down only serves to make playing less engaging.
Franklin Khan says, " Well I know who I'm metagrudging from now on "
Istoprocent: You and Rock Steele definitely metabuddies, proving metacomms will take time but eventually people will figure it out.
Declan Cooper asks, " does rock steel have autism? "
Erik489: Malkraz, I gotta ask, and please be honest. Do you metacomm with Rock Steel?
Lumbermancer: also rock should be killed every round
Willy Willee says, " And he kept spam-tabling me, while his metafriend came over "
ATHATH: Rock Steel, I fucking hate you with a passion. I was alive on the station for less than a minute, you absolute cunt you CREMATING ASSHOLE I GENUINELY *HATE* YOU
Adam Karlsson says, " i just want rock " Shaun McFall says, " you know you'll get harshly punished for this right " Adam Karlsson says, " oh i know "
Aidan Duncan says, " Once again, Rock Steel is the fucking worst person on the station "
Twaticus: malk i hate you why do you ruin everything
Alijah Petrov says, " Actually then, im just gonna start robusting rock steel every time i see him "
Adolph Weinstein says, " I like how we have a wizard onboard, and the only person causing shit is Rock "
[Common] Most Likely Malfunction states, " BORG RETURN TO THE CLONEER AND ISPOSE OF ROCK STEELS BODY. "

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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Malkraz » Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:17 am #456306

Shadowflame909 wrote:If we're changing from a game of randomness and RNG into a game of wits and accurate predictions, how will the dum dum folks like me survive here!

Funny enough slowing it down does the opposite, relying more on disarm RNG/who shot first and not requiring forethought as much over reaction.
Franklin Khan says, " Well I know who I'm metagrudging from now on "
Istoprocent: You and Rock Steele definitely metabuddies, proving metacomms will take time but eventually people will figure it out.
Declan Cooper asks, " does rock steel have autism? "
Erik489: Malkraz, I gotta ask, and please be honest. Do you metacomm with Rock Steel?
Lumbermancer: also rock should be killed every round
Willy Willee says, " And he kept spam-tabling me, while his metafriend came over "
ATHATH: Rock Steel, I fucking hate you with a passion. I was alive on the station for less than a minute, you absolute cunt you CREMATING ASSHOLE I GENUINELY *HATE* YOU
Adam Karlsson says, " i just want rock " Shaun McFall says, " you know you'll get harshly punished for this right " Adam Karlsson says, " oh i know "
Aidan Duncan says, " Once again, Rock Steel is the fucking worst person on the station "
Twaticus: malk i hate you why do you ruin everything
Alijah Petrov says, " Actually then, im just gonna start robusting rock steel every time i see him "
Adolph Weinstein says, " I like how we have a wizard onboard, and the only person causing shit is Rock "
[Common] Most Likely Malfunction states, " BORG RETURN TO THE CLONEER AND ISPOSE OF ROCK STEELS BODY. "

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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Dr_bee » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:30 pm #456338

Malkraz wrote:
Shadowflame909 wrote:If we're changing from a game of randomness and RNG into a game of wits and accurate predictions, how will the dum dum folks like me survive here!

Funny enough slowing it down does the opposite, relying more on disarm RNG/who shot first and not requiring forethought as much over reaction.


Doesnt solve the problem of people crossing the entire station in 5 seconds dragging a dead body so sec cant possibly respond to cries for help. Slower movespeed will mean that more than one sec officer can actually respond to a cry for help by closing in on the shouted location before the offender can lightspeed bolt to the ass end of nowhere, making actual foresight required for murder instead of relying on our broken combat system.

and guns SHOULD be hard to dodge, they are fucking guns. You shouldnt be able to sidestep fucking light beams or .357 rounds.

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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Malkraz » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:53 pm #456342

Dr_bee wrote:Doesnt solve the problem of people crossing the entire station in 5 seconds dragging a dead body so sec cant possibly respond to cries for help.

Already said I think dragging should have a speed penalty.
Dr_bee wrote:and guns SHOULD be hard to dodge, they are fucking guns. You shouldnt be able to sidestep fucking light beams or .357 rounds.

Maybe, but slowing down everyone across the board is the worst "solution".
Franklin Khan says, " Well I know who I'm metagrudging from now on "
Istoprocent: You and Rock Steele definitely metabuddies, proving metacomms will take time but eventually people will figure it out.
Declan Cooper asks, " does rock steel have autism? "
Erik489: Malkraz, I gotta ask, and please be honest. Do you metacomm with Rock Steel?
Lumbermancer: also rock should be killed every round
Willy Willee says, " And he kept spam-tabling me, while his metafriend came over "
ATHATH: Rock Steel, I fucking hate you with a passion. I was alive on the station for less than a minute, you absolute cunt you CREMATING ASSHOLE I GENUINELY *HATE* YOU
Adam Karlsson says, " i just want rock " Shaun McFall says, " you know you'll get harshly punished for this right " Adam Karlsson says, " oh i know "
Aidan Duncan says, " Once again, Rock Steel is the fucking worst person on the station "
Twaticus: malk i hate you why do you ruin everything
Alijah Petrov says, " Actually then, im just gonna start robusting rock steel every time i see him "
Adolph Weinstein says, " I like how we have a wizard onboard, and the only person causing shit is Rock "
[Common] Most Likely Malfunction states, " BORG RETURN TO THE CLONEER AND ISPOSE OF ROCK STEELS BODY. "

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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Karp » Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:31 pm #456360

Dr_bee wrote:and guns SHOULD be hard to dodge, they are fucking guns. You shouldnt be able to sidestep fucking light beams or .357 rounds.


https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/in ... t-19679470

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/in ... t-19595675


Forgot who i got that off of but that's a good read for you

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Re: Movement Speed

Postby somerandomguy » Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:45 pm #456362

Steelpoint wrote:If we are concerned that slower speed will make stun weapons far more powerful, we could examine reworking stun weapons to not be as instantly a 1 hit win. Perhaps making it that a standard ranged stun will, if you take a shit, knock you on the ground and slow you down but not stop you from moving. Just as a random guess of a idea.

we literally did that

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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Eskjjlj » Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:47 pm #456480

Lowering move speed is a huge buff to anyone with a ranged weapon as it was pointed out.
Imagine being able to empty a laser gun into someone and even though they are able to react in time to dodge the game literally prevents them from taking action which is frustrating and not fun at all.
Speed is the only advantage unarmed people have. Remove that and people will be unable to defend themselves against antags who will just shoot those slow targets.

Also another consequence of a lower movement speed is that people will be LESS productive during rounds because often you have to move to do your job and if it you are twice as slow you will accomplish half of what you could have done.
For example an engineer fixing hull breaches. You have to gather supplies, move to the hull breach then you have to move to fix every broken tile which takes a lot of time. Imagine doing this but the game forces you to perform actions slower than you are physically able to. This can get frustrating very fast. The player should have the ability to perform actions in game as fast as he can move his mouse and type on his keyboard. Arbitrarily limiting the movespeed makes the gameplay experience less smooth and very tiring as you have to wait and wait and wait to do what you want to do.

Finally as a player I want to add that the fast-paced action gameplay is what makes ss13 engaging. It's more fun to have to make decisions under pressure than having all the time in the world to think about which tile to step on. Even if you make a bad decision it is still a learning experience but on the other hand it is so gratifying to fight against all odds and come out on top using your own abilities to the maximum.

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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Cik » Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:56 am #456579

fast movespeed just leads to prisoner's dilemma gameplay, shoot first and ask questions later turns into the 100% survival strategy which directly strangles any sort of RP in any scenario that isn't "both of us are balls of foam and can't possibly hurt each other" which doesn't really happen in the game.

there is no visual range in the game that is "safe standoff" enough to talk with any sort of adversary, as especially if you are typing they can cross the screen in an eyeblink and fuck your shit up in an instant. likewise physical control of an enemy is impossible as once they are in motion they are ridiculously hard to stop.

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Re: Movement Speed

Postby subject217 » Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:46 am #456596

Cik wrote:fast movespeed just leads to prisoner's dilemma gameplay, shoot first and ask questions later turns into the 100% survival strategy which directly strangles any sort of RP in any scenario that isn't "both of us are balls of foam and can't possibly hurt each other" which doesn't really happen in the game.

there is no visual range in the game that is "safe standoff" enough to talk with any sort of adversary, as especially if you are typing they can cross the screen in an eyeblink and fuck your shit up in an instant. likewise physical control of an enemy is impossible as once they are in motion they are ridiculously hard to stop.

empty quoting all of this

part of it is that it's really easy to get jumped, part of it is that the nature of a "permadeath" game at least within a round is that people play to never lose because they want to keep playing
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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Shadowflame909 » Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:33 am #456605

subject217 wrote:
Cik wrote:fast movespeed just leads to prisoner's dilemma gameplay, shoot first and ask questions later turns into the 100% survival strategy which directly strangles any sort of RP in any scenario that isn't "both of us are balls of foam and can't possibly hurt each other" which doesn't really happen in the game.

there is no visual range in the game that is "safe standoff" enough to talk with any sort of adversary, as especially if you are typing they can cross the screen in an eyeblink and fuck your shit up in an instant. likewise physical control of an enemy is impossible as once they are in motion they are ridiculously hard to stop.

empty quoting all of this

part of it is that it's really easy to get jumped, part of it is that the nature of a "permadeath" game at least within a round is that people play to never lose because they want to keep playing


I understand what you mean but, If you change this in hopes of changing the security vs antagonist playstyle. Like, more negotiations, more hostage situations and most of all more RP. Will the players really change as you want them to? I'm more or less seeing how currently if you're "Wanted." There's no negotiating for you. Sec will straight up laser you, leaving your current options of only running. I see that with a slower speed, You lose the only option of escape and you have to sort of lie down and die as you take 10 lethal laser shots as you try to move forward one tile.

Well, if this doesn't change things how you're expecting it to do so Subject217. I guess it'll finally make mining sandbags more useful in a non-nuke ops round. I'd even add it to the syndicate uplink. It'll be a life saver.
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BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.


BebeYoshi wrote:Saltyflame909


Cobby wrote:The trash bin... have you lost your way home anon?

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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:39 am #456646

if speed gets significally lowered stuff like megafauna might need some tweaks as you wont be able to dodge shit anymore

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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:12 am #456662

i think it would be better to add a "sprint" mode which deals stamina damage and gives you standard/better speed, and have default speed dufflebag speed and maybe remove those gottagofast traits and convert them into more stamina to sprint with

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Re: Movement Speed

Postby confused rock » Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:39 pm #456687

Tlaltecuhtli wrote:i think it would be better to add a "sprint" mode which deals stamina damage and gives you standard/better speed, and have default speed dufflebag speed and maybe remove those gottagofast traits and convert them into more stamina to sprint with

That's exactly how sprinting worked last time (when movespeed was slower) and that sucked, so...
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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Isy232 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:04 am #457070

Just from my own thinking, I believe decreasing the current movement speed by 25%, so it is 3/4 of that it was before the change sounds good. I don't know how the config works this is just what I think.

I also believe stamina is a shit idea though. Realistically, in a combat situation you will get an adrenaline rush powerful enough to keep you fighting or running for a long time.

I do think also that pulling someone shouldn't slow you down unless the person you are pulling is in an intent other than help.
Think of it like an agreeing to being pulled and following compared to resisting the pull.
If dragging someone across the floor it should count as resisting as well and slow the dragger down.
This would make resisting arrest in space law something actually important too.

Eskjjlj wrote:Lowering move speed is a huge buff to anyone with a ranged weapon as it was pointed out.
Imagine being able to empty a laser gun into someone and even though they are able to react in time to dodge the game literally prevents them from taking action which is frustrating and not fun at all.
Speed is the only advantage unarmed people have. Remove that and people will be unable to defend themselves against antags who will just shoot those slow targets.


I think it would be a matter of if you are prepared to fight or make an escape. There are many items you can use from nearly every job to defend yourself in an emergency against an antagonist and in roleplay this would be justified because of the whole enemy transmission intercepted at the start of every round. While the attacking antagonist will still likely be better armed, you have a good chance of beating them or making an escape.

An example of this is how roboticists get flashes, chemists get meth, geneticists get hulk, xenobiology gets sepia slime extracts, botany gets hatchets and possibly gatfruit, chef gets CQC in the kitchen, bartender gets a shotgun, lawyer gets a laser pointer, virology gets whatever virus buffs and an extremely safe workplace, anyone can pick up a welding tool which has the force of "robust", every head gets an extendable baton, engineering gets a flash from tech storage and hardsuits, atmospherics gets a fireaxe. Also, anyone can craft cable ties, spears, IED's or just use the disarm intent.

If anything, I think most antagonists are not very powerful unless they do stuff right and get advantages.

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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:53 pm #457239

well now that i think about it, revolver + everyone is slow means free murderbone

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Re: Movement Speed

Postby DrunkenMatey » Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:51 am #457256

I like the speed as is. I guess if it gets tweaked a bit it could be survivable as long as it doesn't change the feel of movement. I was on paradise for a round when TG's host was down for maint last week and it felt like characters were gliding awkwardly through molasses; which made it really painful to play.

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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Isy232 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:56 am #457918

We had a round where all of the crew were made "fat" for the whole round.

It was shit.

What I want is a slight decrease to maybe 3/4ths of what we currently have, nothing more.

The current speed seems ridiculous, but it is a space station, and space stations are not known for being large, hence I think a few adjustments.

I do not want this to affect lavaland though, miners need their speed to keep megafauna fun, explain it as lower gravity or something.

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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Nilons » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:21 am #457922

Isy232 wrote:I do not want this to affect lavaland though, miners need their speed to keep megafauna fun, explain it as lower gravity or something.

this is a really good point
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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Steelpoint » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:52 am #457924

Lower gravity does not mean you magically run faster, the moon has low gravity but you ain't going to be running fast there anytime soon.

It'd be nice if we could see the current movement speed instead of guessing if its being lowered or not.
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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Nilons » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:57 am #457925

Steelpoint wrote:Lower gravity does not mean you magically run faster, the moon has low gravity but you ain't going to be running fast there anytime soon.

It'd be nice if we could see the current movement speed instead of guessing if its being lowered or not.

ss13 is not real life and the megafauna are entirely balanced around running fast afaik
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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Rustledjimm » Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:41 am #457944

Does anyone remember the charity event tournament we ran.

Man the combat looked so dumb especially when it was 1v1.
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Re: Movement Speed

Postby confused rock » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:21 pm #457995

Nilons wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:Lower gravity does not mean you magically run faster, the moon has low gravity but you ain't going to be running fast there anytime soon.

It'd be nice if we could see the current movement speed instead of guessing if its being lowered or not.

ss13 is not real life and the megafauna are entirely balanced around running fast afaik

Gsme theory: lavaland is balanced around moving fast because you move fast? Goliaths, legions and watchers were originally balancrd for hardsuit speed (goliaths even got easier), this small section of a job is the most negligible and changeable concern.
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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Shadowflame909 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:36 pm #458048

confused rock wrote:
Nilons wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:Lower gravity does not mean you magically run faster, the moon has low gravity but you ain't going to be running fast there anytime soon.

It'd be nice if we could see the current movement speed instead of guessing if its being lowered or not.

ss13 is not real life and the megafauna are entirely balanced around running fast afaik

Gsme theory: lavaland is balanced around moving fast because you move fast? Goliaths, legions and watchers were originally balancrd for hardsuit speed (goliaths even got easier), this small section of a job is the most negligible and changeable concern.


those are not megafauna jimbo.

Also, how am I supposed to dodge the colossus's bullets and the hierophant who literally teleports near you and spams you with blasts under your feet!
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Re: Movement Speed

Postby zxaber » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:31 pm #458071

To be fair, Megafauna are being re-balanced to be more of a challenge, the Ash Drake is already done, and these changes are with the current speed of Delay 2 in mind.

If we're looking at Lavaland having a snowflake speed, would anyone be against me making an "Ion Thruster Pack" or something that gives Delay 2 speed for Lavaland? Could be a techweb item for mid-round access, and if we want it to be tied to Lavaland (as opposed to working in any low-atmos condition) I'm sure I could add some flavor-text fluff to make it sound semi-plausible.
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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Karp » Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:47 am #458133

subject217 wrote:
Cik wrote:fast movespeed just leads to prisoner's dilemma gameplay, shoot first and ask questions later turns into the 100% survival strategy which directly strangles any sort of RP in any scenario that isn't "both of us are balls of foam and can't possibly hurt each other" which doesn't really happen in the game.

there is no visual range in the game that is "safe standoff" enough to talk with any sort of adversary, as especially if you are typing they can cross the screen in an eyeblink and fuck your shit up in an instant. likewise physical control of an enemy is impossible as once they are in motion they are ridiculously hard to stop.

empty quoting all of this

part of it is that it's really easy to get jumped, part of it is that the nature of a "permadeath" game at least within a round is that people play to never lose because they want to keep playing


I think you and cik have an illusion that preventing one successful strategy to win the game will force people to be better sports in the game and preform the actions you want instead of forcing people to rework how they powergame to survive and cheese everything. Look at most games and any nerf to one popular cheese strategy will just encourage another to pop up that may be as bad, or even worse now that one of the more dominant strategies was nerfed which could've been a check/counter to it.

If you want a decent example look at how bulky stunprods+stungloves being kill just leading to people packing slippery items like soap or lube instead more frequently to validhunt, or how cult being progressively stronger and easier just leads to security mass murdering cultists on sight to try to survive in said gamemode

And no, movement isn't 5-8 tiles crossed in an instant fast unless someone is on drugs or a cyborg on a VTEC(both are glitchy as fuck and bad enough to crash your client sometimes because they move faster than your screen can refresh), and yes I have stood at corners/behind certain objects and had conversations multiple times with people when at a standoff while both of us are armed. Unless you're incredibly slow to click on your game and move away/type, then in that instance even a slower movespeed wouldn't help you. It would still encourage fire first and ask questions later, except that the person with the weapon has an overwhelming advantage to the point where you aren't able to run away or fight if someone with a weapon wants to stun/murder you.

And no my current points of concern aren't playing to win and I feel like that's a strawman to try to paint the other side as filthy powergamers. My main point of concern is that a slower movespeed would make something miserable being lowpop murderboning, low sec count murderboning, or murderboners who have killed off security even more painful to deal with as getting away is harder and attempting to scrounge tools to counter them takes longer due to the slower speed. Long term it feels like it just encourages wordlessly shooting people and more wordless violent conflict as the first person to fire is likely going to be the person who wins the fight.

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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Cik » Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:00 pm #458312

murderboner is it's own problem and has little to nothing to do with movement speed

any movement speed change would buff security as much as antags anyway

murderboning is a culture problem, or a rules problem, or both

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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Nervere » Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:52 pm #458650

I'm going to start the movement speed change today.
The movement speed change will take some time for people to get used to, so it will be gradual.
The value of RUN_DELAY will be increased by 0.05 every 4 days until we reach the desired value of 1.5.
WALK_DELAY is slow enough and will not be touched.
We ended up settling on 1.5 because it's a much more reasonable speed than what we currently have, but also isn't something terribly slow like what a RUN_DELAY of 2 would be like.
The first increment begins today, so the current delay is 1.05.

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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Cik » Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:47 pm #458738

based snow gondola

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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Steelpoint » Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:56 am #458872

I'm happy to see the change, I think we'll all be interested in seeing how this effects the game.
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Re: Movement Speed

Postby adamkad1 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:29 pm #459928

while i do like fast movement speed, i absolutely hate the fact that if you throw anything straight in front of yourself, you WILL hit yourself

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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Shadowflame909 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:27 am #461209

subject217 wrote:also since magikarp is posting i'll point out that changing run speed via config should also require us to rebalance all megafaunas and some other simplemobs I believe



I must have the best superpower ever, cognitive omittance.

I've been saying this all thread!
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Re: Movement Speed

Postby WarbossLincoln » Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:02 pm #461359

adamkad1 wrote:while i do like fast movement speed, i absolutely hate the fact that if you throw anything straight in front of yourself, you WILL hit yourself


I stunned myself with a baton one trying to throw it at someone I was pursuing

Projectile/thrown speed should be the current speed plus the speed of the mob that spawned it.
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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Steelpoint » Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:00 pm #461371

The recent Bubblegum PR was worked to take into account the new movement speed. The same can be done with the others.
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Re: Movement Speed

Postby MrStonedOne » Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:28 am #461574

The move speed of any mob can be controlled by the config, there is a config entry to override the movespeed of mobs by type, simple animals seem to respect it.
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Re: Movement Speed

Postby Shadowflame909 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:22 am #461583

What about Mobs that are intentionally slower in exchange for stronger attacks. Is movement more of a chore? I guess this also applies to hardsuits. Like plasma men and the others.
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Re: Movement Speed

Postby confused rock » Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:36 pm #461608

The original 3 lavaland mobs were balanced around moving much slower (and having a coldass hardsuit) so those at least will always be cozy.
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Re: Movement Speed

Postby firecage » Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:47 pm #461610

So



Slow



Why?
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Re: Movement Speed

Postby confused rock » Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:03 pm #461622

When we’re on like .12 extra delay and fire “tc trade for a spell blade” cage gives such constructive criticism it makes me sure slower is better
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Re: Movement Speed

Postby obscolene » Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:27 am #462192

confused rock wrote:lmao obscolene how much time are you spending doing literally nothing but walking around I cannot even conceive of being bored by that, look around, talk, listen to radio, sort your inventory, a lot of things are more boring than moving.

this is an over month late reply but literally all i ever do in ss13 is run in fucking circles around the station until someone is Trying To Kick My Fucking Ass Then It's Show TIme
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