/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

As noted by oranges in another thread, apparently ingame movement speed is tied to a configuration option, and thus falls under the administrations control.

My proposal here is to suggest tweaking movement speeds and slowing everyone down. I feel the current 'saniac' movement speeds we have are not conductive to a great gameplay experience as gameplay has a very loose feeling to it with no real depth or strategy to combat aside from who can sprint the fastest and outrun the lasers and bullets.

Thank you.

I'm a fan of lowering movement speed. Right now I think its weird how quickly people can zoom around one end of the station to the other.

Malkraz wrote:While there's definitely a case to be made for mechanical simplicity, if the alternative is (in my mind) a direct downgrade then a more complex substitute is absolutely preferred.
I think it's kind of weird to be complaining about "complicated" systems in ss13 of all places, though.

not that I'm against this but I'd rather just slow down speed right now and if someone actually gets around to code something like that then that's a conversation worth having at that point

Mickyan wrote:

Malkraz wrote:While there's definitely a case to be made for mechanical simplicity, if the alternative is (in my mind) a direct downgrade then a more complex substitute is absolutely preferred.
I think it's kind of weird to be complaining about "complicated" systems in ss13 of all places, though.

not that I'm against this but I'd rather just slow down speed right now and if someone actually gets around to code something like that then that's a conversation worth having at that point

Mmm yes rather than waiting around for a coder to implement such a system I would say lower speed for now until such a system exists.

Malkraz wrote:Depending on implementation I'd be fine with a sprint/stamina system, as it could add a new layer of stamina management both inside and out of encounters. I think it would have to be fairly generous to be an acceptable replacement, however.

We tried sprinting once, I couldn't tell you a specific reason why it sucked. maybe if people were slower, but I dunno if that's the best idea. it worked for lifeweb sure but lifeweb had toggles for combat mode and a lot of other shit so
worst case scenario we learn even a slight speed decrease sucks ass and it's changed back. the horror.

I'd like to remind everyone that citadel implemented a stamina system binding combat and movement itself, and it's absolutely atrocious.

Lowering running speed would be good and fine, but a stamina system does nothing but force a great deal of issues that in the end will only bog down the experience without benefiting roleplay.

Nilons wrote:

WarbossLincoln wrote:

As if an actual officer yelling "wait" will stop a real criminal. Use your taser instead of trying to talk to somebody who has no intention to converse.

>Move mouse to taser on armor slot(because anyone sane put their taser up immediately before starting to cuff cause of disarm spam greyshits all over)
>Guy is already halfway across the station before you can click.

This combined with the fact it's damn near impossible to hit someone with a taser shot if they're running from you and you have to do it twice if they're dragging someone you were arresting behind them

keep it in your bag or belt and use shift+b or shift+e respectively

it's fine as is.

Slow movement is really painful to play with

A very simple change would be to make running use more nutrition, then let the nutrition downsides do their thing.

Would also elevate the chef which is good roleplay or whatever.

Cobby wrote:A very simple change would be to make running use more nutrition, then let the nutrition downsides do their thing.

Would also elevate the chef which is good roleplay or whatever.

Isn't nutrition already tied to how much you move, I might be misremembering it but going sanic on meth did seem to make me more hungry

I believe so, which is why I think it's an intuitive change moreso than someone just logging on and finding out they're at walk speed at best.

Didn't we have this conversation before at some point? I'm getting deja vu.

Making nutrition hit people harder would just mean that the assistant who is eating lungs off the floor outspeeds the sec officer, which I doubt is a good solution.

then stop making everything satiable lol

Cobby wrote:I believe so, which is why I think it's an intuitive change moreso than someone just logging on and finding out they're at walk speed at best.

Dax Dupont wrote:it's fine as is.

Slow movement is really painful to play with

please avoid hyperbole, transitioning to something like 2 delay is hardly walk speed and still makes a clear and appreciable difference.

Cobby wrote:then stop making everything satiable lol

Oh, I'm sorry, in that case it'd just be the assistant who raided the garden and kitchen to be the only person on the station without vegan tier speed.

Nothing more infuriating then shooting at someone, watching them outrun a bullet, then getting hit with your own projectile. It’s fucking stupid


Plz lower movement speed

Speed up projectiles

Kel wrote:Speed up projectiles

Still wouldnt solve the problem of people being able to sanic away before anyone has any chance to react to a call for help or stop the problem of people yakkety saxxing away dragging a person and beating on them.

Speed is so high you cant even give information about people's location, as they will be long gone by the time anyone has a chance to react.

slowing normal speed slightly would be great.

Adding a slowdown to dragging people is desperately needed.

adding a slowdown to all backpack types would be even more interesting as it would mean traveling light would make you appreciatively faster and de-incentivize being a one man armory.

Speed needs to be slow enough to make speed increases worth it.

Currently, it is impossible to engage in conversation with someone who is moving. No matter how short your message is or how fast you can type, they will always leave hearing range before you're able to hit enter. That's why I loved the chat wheel, you could use it to send a "Wait" or "Hey" on the go and catch up with them so you could talk. Now, unless you're on the same department channel (nobody reads common) the only way to talk to someone is to send a PDA message (if the server is up) or follow until they're stationary, which usually results in them getting defensive and attacking/stunning you for following them

I would really hope we can trial a week or longer of lowered movement speed. If needed we could ask for a poll after the fact to gauge the community reaction.

Nonetheless I feel the game would only benefit by slowing things down.

Really, with it just being a config option I can't imagine it being too difficult to simply change it for a few days at various speeds, yeah.

confused rock wrote:

Cobby wrote:then stop making everything satiable lol

Oh, I'm sorry, in that case it'd just be the assistant who raided the garden and kitchen to be the only person on the station without vegan tier speed.

That sounds funny af to be the holder of speed and bannable if done repeatedly

subject217 wrote:

Cobby wrote:I believe so, which is why I think it's an intuitive change moreso than someone just logging on and finding out they're at walk speed at best.

Dax Dupont wrote:it's fine as is.

Slow movement is really painful to play with

please avoid hyperbole, transitioning to something like 2 delay is hardly walk speed and still makes a clear and appreciable difference.

To get the effects you want it has to be a notable difference, I don’t find it hyperbolic for people to come on and be bothered by that.

Cobby wrote:

confused rock wrote:

Cobby wrote:then stop making everything satiable lol

Oh, I'm sorry, in that case it'd just be the assistant who raided the garden and kitchen to be the only person on the station without vegan tier speed.

That sounds funny af to be the holder of speed and bannable if done repeatedly

Is this a serious proposition to ban people for eating to avoid going slow

Upping nutrition drain from running solves none of the issues that have been brought up and just encourages people to preemptively hoard food. Any kind of stamina system is going to take more than 5 minutes of theory-crafting to design it.

When I said stamina would be interesting, the system I had in mind was a stamina bar like what's seen conventionally in games. A bar that drains and refills at a quick/gradual rate, with the maximum being affected by factors like damage or nutrition. Gear weight could also be factored into this rather than causing a total slowdown.

Mickyan wrote:

Cobby wrote:

confused rock wrote:

Cobby wrote:then stop making everything satiable lol

Oh, I'm sorry, in that case it'd just be the assistant who raided the garden and kitchen to be the only person on the station without vegan tier speed.

That sounds funny af to be the holder of speed and bannable if done repeatedly

Is this a serious proposition to ban people for eating to avoid going slow

Upping nutrition drain from running solves none of the issues that have been brought up and just encourages people to preemptively hoard food. Any kind of stamina system is going to take more than 5 minutes of theory-crafting to design it.

Hoarding food is not bannable, ensuring no one but yourself can eat is (greytiding). So to answer directly, no.

Preemptively hoarding food just means that you can't store other desired items. Do you want the medkit or do you want a thing of bread? It's simply adding another cost/benefit system to an already understood and intuitive "need".

Our medical system is click to heal, I don't think it's crazy to suggest our stamina system should be just as simple.

Bannable offenses for nonantags that antags aren’t held to:
Murder
Bombings
-EATING ALL THE SNACKS
Its just one config option, and you’re considering making food the most valuable station resource? The only way the food change would fix “people are too fast” is people “in the know” would “avoid” the slowdown “using” “tricks” to “keep on top of” “hunger”. That won’t solve someone ebowing you and dragging you into maint in less than 3 secs, it’d just be worse since said ebower would’ve eaten first and outsped anyone trying to stop him.
Stamina worked well- for lifeweb. In lifeweb stamina is intertwined with every system in the game- hunger, combat, pain, mood, drugs, quality of food... Making stamina work would probably be a massive undertaking if we’d want it to be worthwhile at all. Otherwise it’s just going to give the edge to the prepared greyshit while slowing everyone else down, who is too busy with their job.

Dr_bee wrote:

Kel wrote:Speed up projectiles

Speed is so high you cant even give information about people's location, as they will be long gone by the time anyone has a chance to react.

I play AI a lot and I can't even type fast enough to tell sec where a killer is before they're 3 departments away. I have to anticipate where someone is going to run.

>tator leaves engineering on Meta
>:S he's heading to science.
>Hope he doesn't go north instead.

I suggest we slow it down in increments. A small amount each week so there isn't a drastic change in the speed and it gives time for people to adjust.

confused rock wrote:Bannable offenses for nonantags that antags aren’t held to:
Murder
Bombings
-EATING ALL THE SNACKS
Its just one config option, and you’re considering making food the most valuable station resource? The only way the food change would fix “people are too fast” is people “in the know” would “avoid” the slowdown “using” “tricks” to “keep on top of” “hunger”. That won’t solve someone ebowing you and dragging you into maint in less than 3 secs, it’d just be worse since said ebower would’ve eaten first and outsped anyone trying to stop him.
Stamina worked well- for lifeweb. In lifeweb stamina is intertwined with every system in the game- hunger, combat, pain, mood, drugs, quality of food... Making stamina work would probably be a massive undertaking if we’d want it to be worthwhile at all. Otherwise it’s just going to give the edge to the prepared greyshit while slowing everyone else down, who is too busy with their job.

by me, via not even a full scroll up wrote:Hoarding food is not bannable, ensuring no one but yourself can eat is (greytiding). So to answer directly, no.

If you're going to be hyperbolic and claim assistants are going to hoard the entirety of kitchen/hydro/all sources of food then say "LOL BANNING FOR EATING" when my response is we'd punish players who go to this exaggerated length to deny everyone else the ability to eat at all, It really doesn't help the discussion (surely you're smart enough to be aware of that).

I understand it's one config option and I think it's quite frankly stupid to imply my admittedly simple solution is somehow even more simple than changing a number that has no bearing on other features of the game without further code solutions. My solution takes these into account by making it counterable by simply not running everywhere, whereas the config change would REQUIRE you to take meth or something to compete with some of the features in the game (IE megafauna).

Consider: not running constantly. That's the whole point of the feature which is to conserve it for emergencies like the ebow example. That said, stamina system or not, if you're hit with a hard stun you're GG'd no matter how fast/slow you could run previously. Compared to your proposed config change, this would at least give people the ability to easily run from such a situation. If you're not aware, the config does NOT touch projectile speed meaning every gun would indirectly get a massive buff.

Movespeed should have never been configurable if maintainers weren't going to enforce speeds of non-mobs (IE projectiles, charge attacks) to not be based around this define as well. Hindsight is 20/20 though.

Cobby wrote:

confused rock wrote:Bannable offenses for nonantags that antags aren’t held to:

Movespeed should have never been configurable if maintainers weren't going to enforce speeds of non-mobs (IE projectiles, charge attacks) to not be based around this define as well. Hindsight is 20/20 though.

This is the point I'm worried about the most that isn't really being addressed at all. It's more or less being ignored and shunned away. How will this affect the things we overlook?

Will tasers be inescapable? Will megafauna skills be unavoidable? Will we even be able to survive spacewalking without a Hardsuit anymore? It may seem a bit hyperbolic. But these can all be real changes. If we nerf movement speed too hard without changing anything else.

Well, it doesn't necessarily have to be spacewalking. What if a traitor uses a syndibomb in the middle of the station. This could be a potential mechanical shift where people would previously be able to survive walking over the hull gap to there workplace. Now they may have to wait it out until an engineer or a borg appears.

if headmins decide to change it as a server option it'd take maybe an hour of work at most to catch most of the mobs and fix their movespeeds proportionately. i'd be more than willing to do this work if it was a requirement to get movespeed changed. i agree about the config point but lord only knows how old the movespeed config is.

One of the things that makes walking painful is the constant stop-go cycle of moving to a new tile and then waiting. Supposedly, someone was working on a pixel movement thing that would make slower speeds more smooth and possibly not so terrible.

That being said, setting RUN_DELAY to 2 on a test server didn't feel that bad.

zxaber wrote:One of the things that makes walking painful is the constant stop-go cycle of moving to a new tile and then waiting. Supposedly, someone was working on a pixel movement thing that would make slower speeds more smooth and possibly not so terrible.

That being said, setting RUN_DELAY to 2 on a test server didn't feel that bad.

turn your fps up. I use 80, it's quite smooth.

Ensuring your in game FPS is at least around 60 helps movement feel quite nice.

Spacewalking without a hardsuit doesn’t need to be more viable, and tasers are bullshit to aim currently. I doubt buffong them would be a bad thing, tasers are currently based around the fact you have a 5% chance to hit a spazzing target, remove that factor and ranged weapons can be ACTUALLY BALANCED. (Lets put it this way: a pneumatic fist and a revolver both two shot people, but the fist is superior despite having far more limited ammo, just because missing doesn’t cost you. same reason I’d rather have a baton than a taser.)
As for megafauna, >balancing every station job around a small thing limited to mining
Or megafauna could be slowed down (ez) or chemistry would actually get a reason to make speed drugs.
Cobby’s idea is more complex than it needs to be, and a basic stamina system would have to be far more complex to be worthwhile.

Remove what factor to tasers do you mean? Do you mean to change the way ranged weapons work in entirely to support lowering movement speed? Like, less ammo or increasing the cooldown per charge so slow mc slowman the crewmember doesn't have to worry about dodging them in case they miss the one easy shot they get?

Tasers aren't really bullshit to aim, if you're trying to knock down someone who is running around all over the place you're better off using disablers or a flashbang. The only "bullshit" thing is the how their short range lends itself to being absolutely if the guy is ever running directly away from you, which is indeed partially a movespeed problem. But it has nothing to do with aim.

lmao disablers don't even do shit on the first shot any more, flashbangs shouldn't be a substitute for a taser. it has everything to do with aim, have you ever seen someone stop pulling an assistant in handcuffs in brig? just start counting next time that happens.

Rustledjimm wrote:I suggest we slow it down in increments. A small amount each week so there isn't a drastic change in the speed and it gives time for people to adjust.

>How would you like to die, one shot to the head or slowly dying of cancer?

"'running makes you more hungry than walking' is a complex concept/feature"

No, you just dislike the suggestion lol.

ShadowDimentio wrote:

Rustledjimm wrote:I suggest we slow it down in increments. A small amount each week so there isn't a drastic change in the speed and it gives time for people to adjust.

>How would you like to die, one shot to the head or slowly dying of cancer?

I think we've already proved this has strong support. Just because you don't like it :^)

This has strong forum support****

The people who invest little into le epic server politics are the ones who come in here for high octane action and for better/worse make up a nice chunk of our actual playerbase.

Not to say this doesn’t have strong support, just want to make sure we’re considering the silent majority of our players

If we enact a movement speed change on the server for a week, we'd very quickly garner the general opinion of the entire player base on the change, since this change would have a major effect on everyone.

Runspeed is 0.1 seconds per move (1).
Walkspeed is 0.4 seconds per move (4).

Thanks to a change I made nearly two years ago, we can use infinitely decimal numbers, it will handle translating them even if they don't line up with the game tick rate, so that it evens out.

So we can do things like slowly increasing the runspeed by 0.1 or even 0.05 until its at like 1.5 (0.15 seconds per move) over the course of a few weeks. This is how I increased the tick rate from 11 times per second to 20 times per second. I raised it by 1 every 3 days.

In fact this is exactly what I'm going to do.

It's good to see some changes, I would rather a large change and to go from there but any change works.

I agree with Steelpoint here, it would be nicer to have tha change be all at once. Like a band-aid, or the process of getting into a cold lake, let's just get it over with so I can work on getting used to the new speed.

Plus, it'll seem less like trying to sneak the change in.

how is it sneaking a change in if we're talking about it openly here

Less sneaking and more that there's no real way of seeing if the movement speeds are being changed. If its a gradual affair we won't really notice changes until the changes start getting into larger increments.

Whereas pubically announcing when the change has been made, and making more larger scale digit changes, will let us be more aware of the change.

Right now, I have no idea if the in game speeds are any different today than they were three days ago.

Steelpoint wrote:Less sneaking and more that there's no real way of seeing if the movement speeds are being changed. If its a gradual affair we won't really notice changes until the changes start getting into larger increments.

Whereas pubically announcing when the change has been made, and making more larger scale digit changes, will let us be more aware of the change.

Right now, I have no idea if the in game speeds are any different today than they were three days ago.

That's kind of the point though. If you suddenly swap it from 1 to 2 then people *will* notice and will (understandably) complain about the game feeling sluggish.

If the adjustment is gradual and you never notice it, that's technically mission achieved, not out of any desire to "mislead" or "deceive", simply because it's the less jarring way to handle it.

assuming every player plays every single day without ever taking a break that lasts any amount of time, guess those guys get fucked huh