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Movement Speed

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:36 am
by Steelpoint
As noted by oranges in another thread, apparently ingame movement speed is tied to a configuration option, and thus falls under the administrations control.

My proposal here is to suggest tweaking movement speeds and slowing everyone down. I feel the current 'saniac' movement speeds we have are not conductive to a great gameplay experience as gameplay has a very loose feeling to it with no real depth or strategy to combat aside from who can sprint the fastest and outrun the lasers and bullets.

Thank you.

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:34 pm
by Mickyan
Very much yes, no more yakety sax around the hallways, everything in SS13 is very slow paced except the speed which doesn't fit at all

On a more personal note it makes the current stun based combat futile if you have a higher ping than your opponent, they can run circles around you and get in and out of range before you have a chance to react

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:44 pm
by Floiven
I think it could use some toning down. As someone that hasn't been here for a long time, historically it was slower correct?

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:50 pm
by Steelpoint
I don't think anyone really knows the history.

For a year or longer about one or two years ago we had slower movement speed. However large scale server changes AND the unification of server configs eventually resulted in the unintentional revert of the slow movement speeds.

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:58 pm
by NoxVS
I do feel it’s a bit too excessive right now, but the high speed also allows for things to be more fast paced. IMO it should be decreased slightly for combat reasons. I also feel something should be done with the movement+ items, with some resulting in ludicrous speeds (flagellent, stimpacks) to the point where I turn down VTEC anytime I am a borg so I can actually control

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:58 pm
by BeeSting12
I hate change, downvoted.

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:59 pm
by Steelpoint
One big advantage if we turned down movement speeds is that we'd have far more control on abilities that increased movement speed. Right now we only have 'saniac' and 'hyperloop' speeds, if we had a slower base we could have more unique items that offered differing speed values.

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:38 pm
by Dr_bee
slower movement speed PLEASE, people can practically outrun the AI camera, think about that.

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:54 pm
by Anonmare
That's nothing, you can easily accidentally run into a projectile you just threw. I'm no science expert but I think that oughta be impossible.

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:45 pm
by Davidchan
I've somehow tased myself chasing after a greyshit. I couldn't tell if it was lag, dumb luck or terrible balance.

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:13 pm
by WarbossLincoln
Good idea, lower it some.

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:21 pm
by subject217
so the current run delay is 1 which means you move every other tick. the primary issue with this is that projectiles only move at a speed of "0" or in other words they move one turf every tick. while this works okay when two people are fighting eachother directly, the moment a chase starts it shifts the advantage HEAVILY to the person who is running away. Basically, if you're running away it's 2x as easy to dodge projectiles, and if you're running into a projectile (like, chasing someone who has a ranged weapon) it's 2x as hard.

to some extent, this is simply a drawback of the current movement system. HOWEVER, the ill effects of this can be lessened by increasing the discrepancy between move speed and projectile speed.

in my opinion, the movespeed can easily be dropped to like 2 delay and it won't feel bad at all. it's still significantly faster than baycode servers.

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:09 pm
by confused rock
Other problem is with movedelay at 1, people can only get one speed boost, a fucking massive one. It shouldn’t be possible for an assistant to sip a soda and literally move as fast as the game can handle, ctrl click a guy sec is dragging, and disappear.
Also would’ve made slips and shit more tolerable. Bear traps are still nasty.
Also not surprising david, it’s completely possible to hurt yourself if you throw a throwing weapon in the direction of your movement. Ironic that a bola is useless against an enemy you actually want to slow down.

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:24 pm
by WarbossLincoln
subject217 wrote:so the current run delay is 1 which means you move every other tick. the primary issue with this is that projectiles only move at a speed of "0" or in other words they move one turf every tick. while this works okay when two people are fighting eachother directly, the moment a chase starts it shifts the advantage HEAVILY to the person who is running away. Basically, if you're running away it's 2x as easy to dodge projectiles, and if you're running into a projectile (like, chasing someone who has a ranged weapon) it's 2x as hard.

to some extent, this is simply a drawback of the current movement system. HOWEVER, the ill effects of this can be lessened by increasing the discrepancy between move speed and projectile speed.

in my opinion, the movespeed can easily be dropped to like 2 delay and it won't feel bad at all. it's still significantly faster than baycode servers.


I had never really looked up how SS13 handles movement, thanks for the details. So basically on /tg/ right now people move twice as fast as projectiles which is dumb. Running away from a projectile doubles the amount of time it takes for the projectile to hit you, thereby giving you double the time to dodge. Increasing human move delay to 2 or even 3 is probably good. As long as 3 isn't baycode slow, that's way too slow for us.

The rock has a good point too, currently we only have 1 speed buff, as fast as possible.

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:25 pm
by Shadowflame909
How does movement speed being lowered work? Does it account for literally everything that moves? For example, Simple Mobs that have a whole gimmick of being Slow but Strong (Slaughter Demon's, Juggernauts) Does it just affect player speed? If so, will things like accidental Secway and Megafauna buffs will be taken into count? I'm quite underinformed. But it'll be good to get all stops fully explained before we think this through. It sounds like a good idea at a base level. But how will this change things mechanically? Will bombs obliterate everyone? Will Singularities be inescapable?

TLDR: C'mon guys. I already suck at certain aspects of this game. I don't want to get decked trying to fight the hierophant or Bubblegum. Only to find out that it's become 50% more challenging because of how fast I need to move to barely escape it, and how fast they can still move with their skills.

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:09 pm
by somerandomguy
confused rock wrote:Other problem is with movedelay at 1, people can only get one speed boost, a fucking massive one. It shouldn’t be possible for an assistant to sip a soda and literally move as fast as the game can handle, ctrl click a guy sec is dragging, and disappear.
Also would’ve made slips and shit more tolerable. Bear traps are still nasty.
Also not surprising david, it’s completely possible to hurt yourself if you throw a throwing weapon in the direction of your movement. Ironic that a bola is useless against an enemy you actually want to slow down.

*remembers fluking as a clown op by getting hit with a pie after firing it*

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:41 pm
by Boris
Lower it a TINY BIT so people can't tell that it's even slower, then keep doing that till it's as slow as it should be.

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:59 pm
by Suicidalpickles
>slow down a moment ingame
>try to talk to someone with current movespeed
>they zoom out of your screen in a second or so just as you say something

tldr lowering it again would be neat

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:27 pm
by subject217
confused rock wrote:Other problem is with movedelay at 1, people can only get one speed boost, a fucking massive one. It shouldn’t be possible for an assistant to sip a soda and literally move as fast as the game can handle

you can have speeds of -1

at least with old movespeed modifiers (ninjanomnom changed them) TRAIT_GOTTAGOFAST made you move at 0 delay and TRAIT_GOTTAGOREALLYFAST made you move at -1.

for reasons that I don't entirely understand projectiles can't move faster than they currently do in this movement system.

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:31 pm
by Nilons
Lowering it slightly would be good

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:16 pm
by Nervere
I've always had a huge problem with our movement speed. It's way too fast, it's hard to even hold a casual conversation without people zooming away from you.
I completely intend to lower it. The question at this point is how much it should be reduced.

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:35 am
by lmwevil
if you do this please remove the slowdown on plasmeme suits or reduce it somewhat, it'll be literally unplayable :(


t. plasmeme that takes a full 1-3 minutes to cross the entire station vs human that takes 20-30 seconds

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:44 am
by confused rock
I'd say decrease it to -2 at most and see if that's painfully slow or decent. maybe it'd be a good idea to decrease slowdowns on fire and hardsuits though yeah, then it'd even out.

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:04 am
by obscolene
if you're gonna lower movespeed then you'd better make the fuckig station smaller because walking all the way across the station is boring enough as is

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:51 am
by Steelpoint
The current movement speed makes responding to stuff happening trivial, you can call 'H-H-HELP ROBOTICS!!!' and half the crew will be swarming in within ten seconds. Thirty seconds to get from one end of the station to another makes stealth hard. Not to mention the other myriad of issues.

I think a good start would be lowering the movement speed to -2 and go from there.

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:13 am
by confused rock
lmao obscolene how much time are you spending doing literally nothing but walking around I cannot even conceive of being bored by that, look around, talk, listen to radio, sort your inventory, a lot of things are more boring than moving.

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:28 am
by subject217
this is triggering me so i have to point it out

the way move delay works is HIGHER values are SLOWER

so you are suggesting a delay of 2, not a speed of -2.

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:02 am
by Malkraz
The only problem I have with the current movement speed is running into my own thrown items. "Problems" like not being able to talk to people can be solved by just opening with "hey" to get their attention rather than an entire sentence. Slowing everyone down is just going to make people scream even harder when it's made twice as easy for robust greytiders to shit all over their lethargic pixels.
I completely deny this notion that there's no depth to gameplay because you can move fast, in fact I think it's the opposite. There's a lot a player can do when they understand latency and can take into account other player's reaction speeds and movement patterns. At higher speeds it becomes much more of a game of employing strategies to predict and outsmart your opponent, knowing where and when to position your character and click a disarm or spill some water. But of course to the unrobust this will just look like random spamming.
Slowing down speeds will limit these factors as you no longer have to observe and predict your opponent zipping around, you'll have time to simply react to them. Playing around the speed is a central part of the cat & mouse chases and the combat parts of this game that can easily turn the tides against either side (ducking around a corner or quickly doubling back on your pursuer, setting up a slip trap before they see it coming, predicting a double-back and preparing ahead of time, using smart positioning to lead the guy you're chasing into doors to slow them down as they open), and it should stay that way.
Also, moving fast is just plain fun.

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:50 am
by Steelpoint
Having someone run up, nab someone you are arresting, and sprint off faster than you can type 'wait', is not conductive to good gameplay.

Most 'combat duels' really just come down to people spamming their attacks and hoping one of their hits lands true. Its impossible to accurately predict a targets movement in most cases due to the duel fact that there is no conservation of momentum, meaning people can be sprinting at max speed and turn 180 degrees and run the opposite direction instantly, and that the insane speeds make it damn impossible to predict movement and target appropriately since you can outrun and out dodge projectiles.

Water spilling is only viable (and far less so thanks to the slip nerfs) due to people running so fast that they cannot possible identify a wet tile and stop in time. Lord help you if you try and engage in melee combat. I've seen people being chased all over the station because it is extremely hard to land a hit when someone is running away. Add the hilarity that its just as likely you might smash yourself with that melee attack considering the frantic nature of movement.

Moving fast is fun, but it should not be the standard of movement. But it should be reserved for special items such as higher level Nanites, chemicals or special gear that allows for it. Making the high movement speeds a uncommon thing that has to be earned, instead of being common, would make them more enjoyable.

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:43 am
by Malkraz
Steelpoint wrote:Having someone run up, nab someone you are arresting, and sprint off faster than you can type 'wait', is not conductive to good gameplay.

As if an actual officer yelling "wait" will stop a real criminal. Use your taser instead of trying to talk to somebody who has no intention to converse.
Steelpoint wrote:Most 'combat duels' really just come down to people spamming their attacks and hoping one of their hits lands true. Its impossible to accurately predict a targets movement in most cases due to the duel fact that there is no conservation of momentum, meaning people can be sprinting at max speed and turn 180 degrees and run the opposite direction instantly, and that the insane speeds make it damn impossible to predict movement and target appropriately since you can outrun and out dodge projectiles.

Malkraz wrote:I completely deny this notion that there's no depth to gameplay because you can move fast, in fact I think it's the opposite. There's a lot a player can do when they understand latency and can take into account other player's reaction speeds and movement patterns. At higher speeds it becomes much more of a game of employing strategies to predict and outsmart your opponent, knowing where and when to position your character and click a disarm or spill some water. But of course to the unrobust this will just look like random spamming.


Steelpoint wrote:Water spilling is only viable (and far less so thanks to the slip nerfs) due to people running so fast that they cannot possible identify a wet tile and stop in time. Lord help you if you try and engage in melee combat. I've seen people being chased all over the station because it is extremely hard to land a hit when someone is running away. Add the hilarity that its just as likely you might smash yourself with that melee attack considering the frantic nature of movement.

Exactly why it's a viable and interesting tactic. You need to take into account latency and their ability to react in time. They also need to account for the possibility that you'll slip them and position accordingly. It makes it more of a mind game than a "oh good thing I could spot this puddle while strolling at a leisurely pace". As for melee combat, there's plenty of things you can do to catch up to people and I already outlined one. It's also very easy to cut corners or nudge them into walking into others and getting stuck.

Steelpoint wrote:Moving fast is fun, but it should not be the standard of movement. But it should be reserved for special items such as higher level Nanites, chemicals or special gear that allows for it. Making the high movement speeds a uncommon thing that has to be earned, instead of being common, would make them more enjoyable.

It's already like that. Apart from the non-intended code issues involved, the current default speed is just fine. Lowering it only equalizes and lowers the skill cap, making combative interactions between players more stale and reliant on disarm luck. The shift from the movement mechanics of a game like Team Fortress 2 to Overwatch is a great example of this effect.

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:45 pm
by somerandomguy
subject217 wrote:this is triggering me so i have to point it out

the way move delay works is HIGHER values are SLOWER

so you are suggesting a delay of 2, not a speed of -2.

Nah let's have a delay of -2

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:36 pm
by WarbossLincoln
As if an actual officer yelling "wait" will stop a real criminal. Use your taser instead of trying to talk to somebody who has no intention to converse.


>Move mouse to taser on armor slot(because anyone sane put their taser up immediately before starting to cuff cause of disarm spam greyshits all over)
>Guy is already halfway across the station before you can click.

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:06 pm
by Nilons
WarbossLincoln wrote:
As if an actual officer yelling "wait" will stop a real criminal. Use your taser instead of trying to talk to somebody who has no intention to converse.


>Move mouse to taser on armor slot(because anyone sane put their taser up immediately before starting to cuff cause of disarm spam greyshits all over)
>Guy is already halfway across the station before you can click.

This combined with the fact it's damn near impossible to hit someone with a taser shot if they're running from you and you have to do it twice if they're dragging someone you were arresting behind them

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:50 pm
by delaron
Yeah, slow it down. This is coming from someone that already has a ping advantage to many others. Slow down movement speed across the board. As a tweek perhaps revisit the slow down effects of clothing to reduce their severity.

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:10 pm
by Shadowflame909
After thinking about it, with the knowledge I have. (Or therefore lack of) I'm unsure if this would be a good idea without a great amount of testing. Why? Simply how many things could change. Take the whole "People need to be slow enough that sec can ask questions." Argument. Is it just me, or could this possibly be an extreme buff to ranged weapons? I mean take a possible scenario like this. Revy Mctider makes a makeshift stun baton and bonks the cap. He can instantly dart off with him, whilst sec is in shock. If this same scenario were to happen with a massive speed Nerf. Whilst taser speed stayed the same. It seems way more likely he'll get downed with no way to escape as he takes 4 seconds to move per one tile. Also, spacewalking without a space suit is sort of barely livable. Speed getting nerfed would turn escape from perma into a death sentence. Although, I guess that's a good thing for the realism crowd. I understand that headmins wouldn't want to break core aspects of the game. So speed won't get jacked up that bad. Nothing changing permanently ever really does. I mean I'm still underinformed as I've said previously. I may even be hysterically falling into the "Muh Change Bad" crowd. I just want to make sure that the ideals of "less speed equals more RP and conversation" works without any unintended nerfs, buffs, and other consequences. A whole lot of this game involves speed as gimmicks. I just really want more info. So I stop stressing. Thanks and have a good one.

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:15 pm
by Karp
Nilons wrote:
WarbossLincoln wrote:
As if an actual officer yelling "wait" will stop a real criminal. Use your taser instead of trying to talk to somebody who has no intention to converse.


>Move mouse to taser on armor slot(because anyone sane put their taser up immediately before starting to cuff cause of disarm spam greyshits all over)
>Guy is already halfway across the station before you can click.

This combined with the fact it's damn near impossible to hit someone with a taser shot if they're running from you and you have to do it twice if they're dragging someone you were arresting behind them


Disablers are broken for this reason alone, you can't outrun them down a straight hall, they have next to no fire delay, they have 20 shots, they're faster than an electrode, and they slow after 2 hits

tasering during a chase instead of disablering is just being dumb

Also I don't really care about movement speed but kor isn't here and he likes to say that the server had more roleplaying/interesting player interaction back when movement speed was faster than it is now

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:35 pm
by Nilons
Karp wrote:
Disablers are broken for this reason alone, you can't outrun them down a straight hall, they have next to no fire delay, they have 20 shots, they're faster than an electrode, and they slow after 2 hits

tasering during a chase instead of disablering is just being dumb

Also I don't really care about movement speed but kor isn't here and he likes to say that the server had more roleplaying/interesting player interaction back when movement speed was faster than it is now

Someone pulling the person youre arresting and spamming help intent on them while they soak up disabler fire will put a stop to that, as well as it still being relatively easy to dodge disablers

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:13 pm
by Dr_bee
I am going to say this again, add a slowdown to pulling people. It is a pain in the ass to have some asshole stun you once, grab you, and yakkety sax away beating on them. This makes it impossible to stop the person or catch them, or for the person being beaten to even shout an accurate location as by the time they shout a location they are already half way across the fucking station.

Whoever thought no slowdown on drag was a good idea was a god-damn retard.

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:19 pm
by Malkraz
These all sound like issues with other mechanics (or player's ability to utilize them) rather than the default movement speed.You should already be aware of who's around you and prepare for some jerk-off to walk up and snag your catch.
I agree with Dr_bee and have thought for quite a while that pulling speed should be nerfed (please don't catch cargo in this). Having no movement penalty on it doesn't make much sense both realistically and from a design perspective unless you're a hulk or something.

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:28 pm
by Rustledjimm
I would support lowering movement speed. It would also buff meth etc. for being quicker. I feel the yackety sax is a bit dumb a lot of the time.

Pulling stuff should also slow you down even further.

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:33 pm
by lmwevil
I feel the need to point out that speed won't magically increase or remove player interaction in general

i do also agree that higher speed changes tactics and lesser speeds won't really change much besides buff ebow and other stunning weapons while making murderbone easier

all in all it isn't just a config change due to the amount of wholegame tweaks that'd be required to keep it playable - as is plasmemes are slow as dirt and this would massively change balance choices on certain weapons

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:37 pm
by Cobby
Keep the current movespeed but penalize keeping run on constantly :^)

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:54 pm
by Rustledjimm
Cobby wrote:Keep the current movespeed but penalize keeping run on constantly :^)



Implement a sprint and stamina system.

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:57 pm
by Malkraz
Depending on implementation I'd be fine with a sprint/stamina system, as it could add a new layer of stamina management both inside and out of encounters. I think it would have to be fairly generous to be an acceptable replacement, however.

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:59 pm
by Shadowflame909
Rustledjimm wrote:
Cobby wrote:Keep the current movespeed but penalize keeping run on constantly :^)



Implement a sprint and stamina system.


Citadel has this. Security Segways bypass it completely.

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:01 pm
by Mickyan
why make things more complicated than they need to be

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:09 pm
by Malkraz
While there's definitely a case to be made for mechanical simplicity, if the alternative is (in my mind) a direct downgrade then a more complex substitute is absolutely preferred.
I think it's kind of weird to be complaining about "complicated" systems in ss13 of all places, though.

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:27 pm
by subject217
Karp wrote:Disablers are broken for this reason alone, you can't outrun them down a straight hall, they have next to no fire delay, they have 20 shots, they're faster than an electrode, and they slow after 2 hits

tasering during a chase instead of disablering is just being dumb

Also I don't really care about movement speed but kor isn't here and he likes to say that the server had more roleplaying/interesting player interaction back when movement speed was faster than it is now


calling disablers broken is laughable, they give you all the time in the world. if you have anything to fight back with (even a nerfed slip is good enough) you don't go down to disablers.

the problem with tasers is actually their firing range, if people are moving away they'll run out of the firing range before it hits them

also since magikarp is posting i'll point out that changing run speed via config should also require us to rebalance all megafaunas and some other simplemobs I believe

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:28 pm
by Rustledjimm
There was talk of changing combat into more of a stamina-based system anyway.

Having that link in with running and actions would be good too. Like an exhaustion mechanic in DnD (this is a roleplaying game guys).

Re: Movement Speed

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:30 pm
by Coconutwarrior97
I'm a fan of lowering movement speed. Right now I think its weird how quickly people can zoom around one end of the station to the other.