Arming up without reason. - And other things

BlessedHeretic · Fri Nov 28, 2014 7:57 pm

Ok so, I've been in a fight with Anon over a particular case that happened involving a Chief Medical Officer. The debate can be found here https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2041 But ultimately this is going to extend far beyond the issue listed there.

Currently, within our rules we have a clear set [Don't ‘play-to-win’] (AKA : Power game.). Rule 3 within the listing.

Recently, especially in regards to chemist players this rule has been thrown out the window and has been heavily ignored. Regardless if it's a Suicide grenade to get revenge on a guy killing you (Acid cloud), assistants or anyone non antag making Stunprods for no reason (No threats to themselves or the station even being remotely detected.) and the worst offender, Chemists filling spray bottles with Poly Acid to simply instant kill anything that offends them (Heavily being abused.)

As an Admin I need a clear ruling on this as soon as possible, what do I do with people who behave like this? Do I ignore it and just let people have their pre-made murder tools for that "JUST IN CASE" scenario? Do I warn offenders?

As much as I would like to act on my gut and throw out some bans and warning for repeated offenders, I'd like a headmin to pass down a ruling on this whole "Arming up without cause/reason.".

Edit: I'm also extending to to things like subverting the AI instantly at roundstart to kill Changling/nukes/ect.

Fun note : This is funny coming from me considering many consider me borderline, if not full blown powergamey. Although I will state that I don't ever arm myself up with any sort of stun weaponry until such a time as my character has a credible IC threat to itself, or personal aboard the station.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Fri Nov 28, 2014 8:03 pm #46728

If you enforce this, it will become obvious that anybody with any kind of weaponry is an antag and that will suck.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Fri Nov 28, 2014 8:59 pm #46735

I guess the question is at what point are you allowed to arm up and how do you deal with antagonists trying to murder you.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:14 pm #46737

Quick N' Easy answer: If someone's attacked you, go ahead and carry a proper weapon.
Grey area answer: Are fire extinguishers, toolboxes, welding tools and other improvised weapons counted under this?

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:23 pm #46740

Did you forget I'm a headmin?

Here's your ruling: just having weapons isn't a bannable or adminpm'able offense.

What WOULD constitute powergaming is rushing to getting these weapons and then running laps around the station on the hunt for any antag to appear anywhere so you could splash them with whatever/beat them with whatever/shoot them with whatever. Making a pacid grenade and then immediately running around so you can bump into some nuke ops and then hurl it at them or suicide gas attack them. Just having a p acid grenade you made shouldn't be a problem.

The actual problem here isn't that people are using p acid on people, it's that people are joining up as chemist, making p acid, and then fucking off to go antag hunt. Your suggested fix, a blanket policy that affects the entire station because of one problem that is about to be fixed in a forthcoming update, is too heavy-handed.

Feel free to talk to other headmins or SoS if you don't like it, but until somebody changes something there's your answer.

BlessedHeretic · Fri Nov 28, 2014 10:11 pm

Alrighty then, i'll be ignoring people who arm themselves with these type of tools in the future then, and altering my play style.

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Sat Nov 29, 2014 6:16 am #46824

An0n3 wrote: What WOULD constitute powergaming is rushing to getting these weapons and then running laps around the station on the hunt for any antag to appear anywhere so you could splash them with whatever/beat them with whatever/shoot them with whatever. Making a pacid grenade and then immediately running around so you can bump into some nuke ops and then hurl it at them or suicide gas attack them. Just having a p acid grenade you made shouldn't be a problem.

That is validhunting. Running around looking for them sweet valids.

Powergaming is like being a hulk, grabbing a bio mask/helmet(whatever the thing is called) for flash and xeno protection as well as hiding green skin, taking the HoS jacket for the armor, and some yellow gloves. Or like grabbing your laser at round start as captain.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:20 am #46833

BlessedHeretic wrote:Alrighty then, i'll be ignoring people who arm themselves with these type of tools in the future then, and altering my play style.

"I'm butthurt about powergamers so I'm going to powergame

"

As if you didn't already blessed, funny joke

AdenAbrafo · Post by **AdenAbrafo** » Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:28 am #46838

I thought the difference between validhunting and powergaming was pretty clear and fairly well understood? Going out with powerful gear to kill antags is shitty, arming yourself up with useful items isn't to a certain extent.
A Warden handing out eguns and lasers to his officers then patrolling the halls with a riot shield and a combat shotgun is terrible, but an assistant making a stunprod or a doctor filling a syringe up with sleeptox just in case is justified.

firecage · Post by **firecage** » Sat Nov 29, 2014 9:05 am #46865

Blessed. No offence. But that sentence sounds like a typical butthurt player who threatens to do X because Y is allowed just to prove a point.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Sat Nov 29, 2014 3:49 pm #46915

ThatSlyFox wrote: Powergaming is like being a hulk, grabbing a bio mask/helmet(whatever the thing is called) for flash and xeno protection as well as hiding green skin, taking the HoS jacket for the armor, and some yellow gloves. Or like grabbing your laser at round start as captain.

Powergaming is going out of your way to use equipment that your role typically does not have access to, especially if done routinely or obtrusively. See: HoS w/ toolbelt/insulated, QM w/ Ablative/Shotgun.
Validhunting is actively looking for, provoking and/or escalating fights, even (or especially) at the risk of your own safety. Often happens in conjunction with the above.

As above, a Geneticist with TK/Hulk isn't powergaming by itself; Taking a bio/space helmet to conceal his hulking out and carrying some cable cuffs to subdue people is. Busting down walls to provoke people, then dunking them when they get mad is validhunting.

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:03 pm #46918

TBH I rarely see anyone make these items unless they truly need them or an antag. Chemists are definitely a big one because having a spray bottle and a beaker with poly-acid screams. "I'm up to no good and I'm willing to ruin someone's round as a non-antag,to get muhvalids, or cause hell for everyone." Assistants with stunprods or spears is to be expected because they're defense tools as well as offensive and shouldn't be treated as power game when you find them. Now it is power game is everyone magically starts arming up for an undeclared cult,xeno,nuke ops, etc when the only shred of evidence to it was some guy yelling those exact things for no rasin.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:09 pm #46943

I don't know about you guys but I always carry a fully charged stun prod and handcuffs to work every morning. Doesn't everyone?

Aurx · Post by **Aurx** » Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:39 pm #46946

BlessedHeretic:
How do you propose that arming up should be enforced? Under what circumstances should a 'min PM someone over their equipment?

Post by **oranges** » Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:54 pm #46949

I had always thought that the line was crossed when they took equipment from other departments that they wouldnt' usually need or carry. Either by stealing or getting access with authority.

Intigracy · Post by **Intigracy** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 12:04 am #46978

.

BlessedHeretic · Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:20 am

Aurx wrote:BlessedHeretic:
How do you propose that arming up should be enforced? Under what circumstances should a 'min PM someone over their equipment?

I ceased to care once I had an official policy placed down by a Headmin. Personally I dislike people making stun prods, water grenades and the like without even the slightest cause. (I.e. They spawn and instantly arm themselves with a stunprod.)

Intigracy · Post by **Intigracy** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:48 am #46998

If you prefer you could go play on bay.

There you'll get in trouble for knowing how to use a gun without being security.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:01 am #47000

>Blessed hates people making stun prods because he spawns with a 15 brute pickaxe when he mains miner and stuns are 2op

It's ok I'll just remove stun prods so pros like you don't have to worry about anything besides security ever being a threat

Raven776 · Post by **Raven776** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 4:29 am #47013

Remove anything that isn't miner related, give them full goliath plated armor, and have their hardsuits allow an ID lock to start pumping hyperzine directly into them forever.

Spacemanspark · Sun Nov 30, 2014 6:50 am

Intigracy wrote:If you prefer you could go play on bay.

There you'll get in trouble for knowing how to use a gun without being security.

You get in trouble for not having it as a selected skill that your character would know (There is a button in the menu where you can set what skills your character knows.) and then going out and robusting a full nuke ops team. You could have a security officer that is untrained completely at ranged combat completely, but is experienced in engineering, for example. You have to have a backstory reason too, but that's not hard if you know how to RolePlay even the slightest amount.

-----------------
As for the actual topic, I think it should really depend on the weapon they make at round start. Spears? Not a huge issue, really. Stun Prod/ Poly Acid grenades/ etc.? Well, that should depend on who and why they are making it. A head making it, for example, should be just fine, though they should remember they start with a telescopic baton. As for other departments, I don't have a problem with engineers making a stun prod, what with all the greytiding assholes that try to break in/ steal all the gloves at round start and offer to give them back for a shitty price. But, uh, most other jobs have some way or another of defending themselves and their department. Botany has hatchets, bartender has his shotgun, chef has knives, janitor has water, etc..
A chemist making Poly Acid grenades immediately should be frowned on, however (Though, yes, granted, that is apparently going to be fixed.). They really should be making Clonexadone, Alkysine, and Tricord as a primary goal. Perhaps after they make a decent amount of that and shit is really starting to go down, then I might be able to see it.
The same can be said about the warden/ Head of Security taking items from the armory at round start/ giving it all out to security officers.

Spoiler:

Post by **lumipharon** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 7:10 am #47029

When it's direcly related to your job, it's not such a big deal.

So an engineer has at hand the shit to make stun prods, chemists have access to deadly chems (poly acid being retard OP at the moment aside) etc.
Now if an engineer went to chemistry to get a chem nade, now that wouldn't be cool.

Also ultimately sec can brig you and confiscate your shit, as it's illegal as fuck.

mrpain · Post by **mrpain** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:30 am #47035

Honestly this wouldnt be such an issue if we either just made a policy about shitter valid hunters/hunting or just rule 0'ed them out.

"Unauthorized weapons" has an entry in Space Law and could be treated as an IC issue.

Killing someone without justification, is, of course bannable.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:29 am #47045

lumipharon wrote:Also ultimately sec can brig you and confiscate your shit, as it's illegal as fuck.

And then you get to deal with the BUT SPACELAW IS OPTIONAL WHY YOU TAKE MY PROD OMG SHITCURITY bullshit.

Spacemanspark · Sun Nov 30, 2014 6:39 pm

cedarbridge wrote:
lumipharon wrote:Also ultimately sec can brig you and confiscate your shit, as it's illegal as fuck.
And then you get to deal with the BUT SPACELAW IS OPTIONAL WHY YOU TAKE MY PROD OMG SHITCURITY bullshit.

You can probably take a stun prod even if you aren't following space law... it's just one of those common sense things.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:15 am #47793

Anybody carrying damned near anything out of their department and wandering the station with it can be construed as an illegal weapon.

You can arrest the scientist with the backpack full of bombs and confiscate them (or if he says "they're for mining!" take them from him, let him go, and then go deliver them to mining yourself). You can arrest the chemist with the spray bottle running around the halls. The guy with the circular saw on his belt. The random guy with the hatchet. The idiot atmos tech running around with his shirt off and the axe on his back.

A tool outside of the area in which it's supposed to be used can be construed as a weapon just fine.
It's up to the officer whether they want to make a big deal out of it or not.

Incomptinence · Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:53 am

If I am security and you have a vial of lube, death fluid or an improvised weapon without justification it is evidence and can be confiscated. Hard enough to solve mysterious crimes as is, so I owe it to the detective to have concrete proof chemist #2 is making lube to spread in the halls.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:34 am #48044

Civil forfeiture station 13

Fragnostic · Post by **Fragnostic** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:09 pm #48213

paprika wrote:Civil forfeiture station 13

https://www.aclu.org/criminal-law-refor ... forfeiture
This is important. You can't just confiscate weapons and things, like a circular saw on a roboticist's belt. If his hands are bloody, someone was found slashed to death, and he's out in the hall, it's okay to detain him and determine whether he was involved and needs to be brigged. Otherwise, you let him go and give him his shit back. If he attacks you, or tries to, you can THEN stun+cuff+confiscate+brig for assault of officer.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:13 pm #48214

Fragnostic wrote:https://www.aclu.org/criminal-law-refor ... forfeiture
This is important. You can't just confiscate weapons and things, like a circular saw on a roboticist's belt. If his hands are bloody, someone was found slashed to death, and he's out in the hall, it's okay to detain him and determine whether he was involved and needs to be brigged. Otherwise, you let him go and give him his shit back. If he attacks you, or tries to, you can THEN stun+cuff+confiscate+brig for assault of officer.

I don't see a Nanotrasen logo anywhere on that site.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Thu Dec 04, 2014 9:59 pm #48243

Fragnostic wrote:
paprika wrote:Civil forfeiture station 13
https://www.aclu.org/criminal-law-refor ... forfeiture
This is important. You can't just confiscate weapons and things, like a circular saw on a roboticist's belt. If his hands are bloody, someone was found slashed to death, and he's out in the hall, it's okay to detain him and determine whether he was involved and needs to be brigged. Otherwise, you let him go and give him his shit back. If he attacks you, or tries to, you can THEN stun+cuff+confiscate+brig for assault of officer.

TIL NT is bound to rules designed by the ACLU.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:31 am #48566

I just had this image of a security officer dropping a stun prod on the ground in front of an assistant.

"Oh my look at what we have here boys you know that's an illegal weapon for you to have..."

ColonicAcid · Post by **ColonicAcid** » Sat Dec 06, 2014 2:34 pm #48633

More like shout at an assistant "CATCH"
throw the stun prod
and then beat the shit out of that assistant for possession of an illegal weapon.

AINT NO REST FOR THE WICKED

omnitricks · Post by **omnitricks** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:24 am #51227

Something related, since when did posessing space lube become a bannable offence? I know that normally the warning is that if you play lube prepare to get dunked by the crew if they want to (aka no banbaiting) but thats about it.

Either the rules have changed without telling anyone or some admin is trying to force on his own perspectives on the station. Since it was a 15 minute ban to stop me from rolling antag in the following round I think its much easier to get a proper ruling to point such admins to if they try this again because its obviously an abuse of power.

srifenbyxp · Post by **srifenbyxp** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:59 pm #51272

Anything can be used a weapon in this game I wager. I sure as hell wouldn't want to get a ding from a butt hurt admin because I'm carrying 3 spears or a combat shotgun fully loaded with a combination of fireshots and slugs on my back whenever Im cargo. As far as im concerned better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

Phalanx300 · Post by **Phalanx300** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:11 pm #51273

Let Security handle more stuff, no need for admins to do play Security Officer.

firecage · Post by **firecage** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:20 pm #51283

omnitricks wrote:Something related, since when did posessing space lube become a bannable offence? I know that normally the warning is that if you play lube prepare to get dunked by the crew if they want to (aka no banbaiting) but thats about it.

Either the rules have changed without telling anyone or some admin is trying to force on his own perspectives on the station. Since it was a 15 minute ban to stop me from rolling antag in the following round I think its much easier to get a proper ruling to point such admins to if they try this again because its obviously an abuse of power.

Omnitricks, I am pretty sure that shouldn't be bannable.

AssassinT90 · Post by **AssassinT90** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:28 pm #51296

Spacemanspark wrote:
Intigracy wrote:If you prefer you could go play on bay.

There you'll get in trouble for knowing how to use a gun without being security.
You get in trouble for not having it as a selected skill that your character would know (There is a button in the menu where you can set what skills your character knows.) and then going out and robusting a full nuke ops team. You could have a security officer that is untrained completely at ranged combat completely, but is experienced in engineering, for example. You have to have a backstory reason too, but that's not hard if you know how to RolePlay even the slightest amount.

It's 2500. There's something called brain information implants, which can make you an expert in any field of knowledge you choose overnight. Have you never read A Space Odyssey?

It really bugs me that when close-minded people ask other people to roleplay they are really asking them to "see stuff like I see it;" It frightens me when people get banned for not acting as a close-minded ape expects them to. And that's why I steer away from roleplay servers: Those people have an awful lack of imagination.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At any rate, can I, as a Warden, grab an e-gun from armory (for personal use), as well as move the ion rifle to my office?

callanrockslol · Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:25 pm

cedarbridge wrote:I don't know about you guys but I always carry a fully charged stun prod and handcuffs to work every morning. Doesn't everyone?

If you knew that odds are somebody is going to try and kill you at one point or another that day you might reconsider, especially if you worked in a deathtrap with lots of empty hallways and places to hide a body.

In space.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:57 am #52062

callanrockslol wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:I don't know about you guys but I always carry a fully charged stun prod and handcuffs to work every morning. Doesn't everyone?
If you knew that odds are somebody is going to try and kill you at one point or another that day you might reconsider, especially if you worked in a deathtrap with lots of empty hallways and places to hide a body.

In space.

Except the "normal" day on SS13 isn't a FFA deathmatch. Its a job. Everyone shows up and goes to work. Every round we play on the server is The Day™ where everything goes to shit. Rounds are exceptional, not the norm.

firecage · Post by **firecage** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:44 pm #52154

Cedar, besides the fact that we can normally carry over memories from previous rounds? Thus we know things go to shit easily?

Whoops, I shouldn't have said anything. Now the admins might decide to change that rule as well.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:02 pm #52157

firecage wrote:Cedar, besides the fact that we can normally carry over memories from previous rounds? Thus we know things go to shit easily?

Whoops, I shouldn't have said anything. Now the admins might decide to change that rule as well.

I can't quote the decision on that but I was pretty sure the stance was we hold general antag knowledge (that antags exist, you can identify them via certain methods, and we know what they are capable of) but in the same way I don't carry a machete to work every day IRL because there are a known number of robberies in my local area, we should not expect the crew to be arming up with weapons at the start of every shift because syndicate agents exist. Hell, if we expect that the individual crew should be arming up (especially assistants with nothing to do with those weapons but cause trouble) why did NT even bother with a sec force?

Think about it from this angle as well. What happens when a captain starts the round by reading the centcomm notice and then instantly walking into the upload and uploading a law "Syndicate agents, wizards, and those inciting revolution against the heads of staff are not human and must be purged violently."? They get banned for metagaming. How does this differ from arming up with a stun prod and cable cuffs because any of those antags might exist or might appear later?

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 4:33 pm #52187

firecage wrote:Cedar, besides the fact that we can normally carry over memories from previous rounds? Thus we know things go to shit easily?

That's news to me, pretty sure something like that would only exist so you can pretend you know your metabuddies IC.
"Man I hope I don't get turned into a slime, beaten by revolutionaries, and then vaporized along with all the cloning facilities usually used to bring me back in a nuclear explosion today... again!" is pretty awkward if you ask me.

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:04 pm #52203

omnitricks wrote:Something related, since when did posessing space lube become a bannable offence? I know that normally the warning is that if you play lube prepare to get dunked by the crew if they want to (aka no banbaiting) but thats about it.

To be fair space lube is usually a tool of pure grief because of how of pain a person can do with it as a non-antg.

rockpecker · Post by **rockpecker** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:26 pm #52211

Saegrimr wrote: That's news to me, pretty sure something like that would only exist so you can pretend you know your metabuddies IC.
"Man I hope I don't get turned into a slime, beaten by revolutionaries, and then vaporized along with all the cloning facilities usually used to bring me back in a nuclear explosion today... again!" is pretty awkward if you ask me.

I'll sometimes RP that for humor--"This is worse than the time I got an alien embryo implanted in my stomach!"--but yeah, using "memory from past rounds" to justify being some kind of fucking Space Prepper with a bunker full of weapons is bad for game balance and generally makes for boring rounds.

SS13 is at its best when everything is just on the edge of going to hell. For that to happen, antags have to have breathing room, which requires everyone else to make some effort to do their jobs like normal people.

ThanatosRa · Post by **ThanatosRa** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:45 pm #52238

From personal experience, it really depends on the round. I've been back and playing a lot of robotics lately. If something feels off after the first few minutes, I'll usually whip up a stun prod if we can spare the battery and stash it, not always on my person. I admit I often FORGET to grab a flash if it becomes necessary, or will often use them all up before I can personally weaponize them.

But yea. I DO admit I'm guilty of, in the past, being an assistant with the budget gloves, stun prod, spear, and the spare toolbelt within the first 2 minutes. Someitmes a welding mask if I can help it.

Of course I'm one of the least robust people on the server so I also immediately get my ass handed to me, on a platter garnish and all ANYWAY. So anyway I had already stopped this behavior anyway because it's just embarrassing.

But yea, THIS IS NOT HOW ONE SHOULD BE. THat's bullshit. Just do your god damned job, it ain't cool to immediately grab what shit you can and go Tribal in maintenance.