/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:31 pm**

hi

creep was recently added to the game

creep is an antagonist that has zero defining mechanics however it gets several interesting objectives. however, on tgstation, our "policy" is that solo antagonists can do whatever they want, and team antagonists can do whatever they want unless it hurts their team.
now, creep in implementation is somewhat interesting in that you can see how the objectives would lead to interesting gameplay. however in practice, i've only ever seen it used for two things. either the creep does nothing and falls flat, or they go murderbone.
which begs the question, what purpose does a random side antag with zero interesting mechanics serve if all they're going to do is murderbone? people already regularly complain about murderboning as is, so what does creep accomplish?

"i theoretically get to murderbone more often so it's good" players are banned from this thread

Posted: **Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:33 pm**

Existing precedents:

- Abductors are a side antag that can be banned for random murder
- Rules are in place to disallow antags from actively doing the opposite of their objectives (IE killing a protect target)

Posted: **Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:34 pm**

PKPenguin321 wrote:Existing precedents:

- Abductors are a side antag that can be banned for random murder

Madame Headmin Arianya told me this was not the case when I talked to her about it. Do you have a source for this?

Posted: **Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:37 pm**

subject217 wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:Existing precedents:

- Abductors are a side antag that can be banned for random murder
Madame Headmin Arianya told me this was not the case when I talked to her about it. Do you have a source for this?

Maybe it got changed, but I was noted for it when I was a wee player (and I wasn't even random murdering, just ended up having to kill 2 people out of necessity but w/e). Probably was a policy that was just never written and lost to the sands of time

Yeah looking at the note it seems it was always just an unwritten rule type thing. Hm

Posted: **Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:40 pm**

Abductor victims aren't treated as full antags. Dunno about abductors themselves.

Agree with the above though. Traitors/lings/solo antags being able to do whatever they wand should be the exception, not the rule.

Posted: **Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:40 pm**

While murderboning is the lowest form of antagonizing and the people who do it are regarded with some amount of infamy, I don't think restricting it is that useful.
Mass murdering as a creep isn't as easy as other antagonist roles as you don't get any tools to help you do so other than what you already have.

I'm also of the opinion that having as little outside policy regarding roles is better, if only to cut down on player confusion. A new player might not fully realize that they can kill whoever they want with antagonist roles EXCEPT this one. Having exceptions to the rules regarding specific roles is usually a bad thing.

We don't stop the Curator when they don't try to roleplay their job, we don't punish lawyers for not trying to do theirs. Those are both roleplaying roles but it's still up to the player. Whether THAT should be looked at is another question entirely, but I think should be included in the discussion if you want to enact restrictions on the creep to encourage roleplaying there.

Posted: **Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:44 pm**

Okay Hulk, that's well and good. So the follow up question becomes, why have Creep in the game if all people are going to do with it is murderbone? Because if that's the conclusion this thread reaches, I'm just going to PR a revert and tell the person who made it to PR it on Yogstation.

Additionally, there are ways to mitigate this. For example, double agents currently makes it quite clear that the game mode has extra rules surrounding it. It's unmanageable for other reasons that are unrelated and don't apply to creep, though.

Furthermore, there's an explicit difference between "doing your own thing for your own personal entertainment even if it's not explicitly what you're supposed to be doing" and "running around ending peoples' rounds willy nilly".

Posted: **Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:50 pm**

Yo like or we could put a little thingy at the end of your flavortext you are not entitled to murderbone and should make some amount of effort to complete your objectives.

Otherwise creep just becomes solo blood brother the trauma.

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:20 am**

subject217 wrote:Okay Hulk, that's well and good. So the follow up question becomes, why have Creep in the game if all people are going to do with it is murderbone?

Why do we have wizard in the game if all people are going to do with it is murderbone?

Again, it's a bit harder to go hog wild killing with creep because they don't get any special tools to do so. I personally don't care if it's removed or not, I'm just saying the precedent for all the other antag roles is that killing is fine. Making single exceptions to this one seems arbitrary.

Ninjas with protect objectives are still allowed to kill whomever they choose, despite it not being within roleplay that they'd kill the people who work for their employer. Also it's pretty easily justified as the creep that you may need to kill more people after killing your initial target(s) because they try to get you back for the initial murder. It would be pretty easy to pull that excuse if an admin questioned why you were killing more people.

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:50 am**

Hulkamania wrote:Why do we have wizard in the game if all people are going to do with it is murderbone?

Been asking this for over a year.

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:57 am**

No but theres no point in having creep if no one does their objectives. It just is other antags reskinned, a waste of code. The only reason it was added was the assumption of people acting in accordance with its objectives.

Wizard is an established round where its juggernaut vs everyone, except the jugg has no health and crazy strong weapons (spell). The point is murderbone, etc etc. Why should we have creeps murderbone when the point is do to their objectives. Limiting antags is shit, creep should be an exception since its not actually an antag, just a trauma. Similar to how brainwashees have to follow their objectives as opposed to murderboning the shit out of the crew.

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:22 am**

Hulkamania wrote:Why do we have wizard in the game if all people are going to do with it is murderbone?

Because Wizard has a ton of fucking content and mechanics made for it. Did you read my post? There is literally nothing unique or interesting about Creep if it's treated like any other antag.

This isn't a thread about fucking murderboning, it's a thread about Creep.

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:35 am**

subject217 wrote: This isn't a thread about fucking murderboning, it's a thread about Creep.

Could've fooled me

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:48 am**

based randolf post

To clarify, yes it's a thread about Creeps but that doesn't mean it's not worth comparing them to other antagonists and how we treat them.

In fact if you'll read MY first post, my entire point is that we shouldn't make exceptions to singular antagonistic roles in the rules because it only causes confusion and bogs things down.

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:01 am**

Then let's not create new antags unless they are made with murderboning in mind.

If we're going to make the game about killing people with different tools then let's not give the impression it's something else and waste people's time who want to contribute to the game as if it were.

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:15 am**

Hulkamania wrote:In fact if you'll read MY first post, my entire point is that we shouldn't make exceptions to singular antagonistic roles in the rules because it only causes confusion and bogs things down.

Yes, and I explicitly address how to resolve this code-wise, if policy is willing to bend, which you have made no argument against.

Cobby wrote:Then let's not create new antags unless they are made with murderboning in mind.

If we're going to make the game about killing people with different tools then let's not give the impression it's something else and waste people's time who want to contribute to the game as if it were.

I agree 100%. I'm not a huge fan of the idea of this antag but any potential it had is completely wasted on /tg/ station.

Furthermore.

Hulkamania wrote:To clarify, yes it's a thread about Creeps but that doesn't mean it's not worth comparing them to other antagonists and how we treat them.

There is an explicit different with creep wherein it is a solo antagonist with zero mechanics to individually define it, which is unique among solo antagonists, and nearly unique among team antagonists (the widely disliked blood brothers being the exception there). So no, comparing it to other antags doesn't hold weight, because those antagonists actually distinguish themselves.

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:31 am**

imagine being so self defeating about your own community

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:56 am**

RandolfTheMeh wrote:Could've fooled me

It's a thread about Creep as an antagonist and how it relates to the /tg/ antag culture (murderboning). I'm not trying to change that culture as a whole, I'm explaining how it makes no sense for Creep.

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:43 am**

subject217 wrote:
RandolfTheMeh wrote:Could've fooled me
It's a thread about Creep as an antagonist and how it relates to the /tg/ antag culture (murderboning). I'm not trying to change that culture as a whole, I'm explaining how it makes no sense for Creep.

I disagree on the notion that it allows the player the interpretation of the creep without limiting them to our interpretation of the creep, allowing for unexpected gameplay. Saying all Creeps will murderbone or else do nothing (a claim you make in your initial post) does no justice to the antagonist, just as if you had said the same of any other antagonist. That being said, I dislike the creep antagonist on the premise it puts the player in an awkward position, even if they aren't adverse to RP, to be playing from, simply due to the implications of the name- not because it has an RP expectation that we have arbitrarily decided is too difficult for our servers.

Furthermore, I've yet to see a creep murderbone, personally. I've seen them kill 2-3 people, maybe, but that's it. This feels like a non-issue except for extreme cases, in which the same could be said about how other mid-round antag roles murderbone, and rescinding the antag role because select few choose to play it in the way they see fit feels pretentious. If you wish for the antag role to be removed, the question shouldn't be "Do people RP properly for said role?", because /tg/ culture has so far allowed that interpretation to be up to the player, within reason.

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:39 am**

ya'll really expect this michael myers actin motherfucker not to kill anyone in the proximity smhtbhfam

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:52 am**

Yes, and I explicitly address how to resolve this code-wise, if policy is willing to bend, which you have made no argument against.

my entire argument is that policy shouldn't bend at all because that just creates special exceptions to already existing rules. The less policy the better.

There is an explicit different with creep wherein it is a solo antagonist with zero mechanics to individually define it, which is unique among solo antagonists, and nearly unique among team antagonists (the widely disliked blood brothers being the exception there). So no, comparing it to other antags doesn't hold weight, because those antagonists actually distinguish themselves.

The only way they "distinguish themselves" is the fact that they have different objectives and a lack of equipment. Pirates have eswords and some guns, but other than that there is zero obligation to actually collect loot, and I see them mostly using it to kill all the time.

I'm not saying this is a GOOD thing, I'm saying that's just the way our rules are. If you make a change saying creeps specifically have to become the exception to the rule and must strictly follow their objectives you're going to have to apply that to every other antagonist role too, which is just something that the rules have never been about.

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:50 am**

Hulkamania wrote:
Yes, and I explicitly address how to resolve this code-wise, if policy is willing to bend, which you have made no argument against.
my entire argument is that policy shouldn't bend at all because that just creates special exceptions to already existing rules. The less policy the better.

There is an explicit different with creep wherein it is a solo antagonist with zero mechanics to individually define it, which is unique among solo antagonists, and nearly unique among team antagonists (the widely disliked blood brothers being the exception there). So no, comparing it to other antags doesn't hold weight, because those antagonists actually distinguish themselves.
The only way they "distinguish themselves" is the fact that they have different objectives and a lack of equipment. Pirates have eswords and some guns, but other than that there is zero obligation to actually collect loot, and I see them mostly using it to kill all the time.

I'm not saying this is a GOOD thing, I'm saying that's just the way our rules are. If you make a change saying creeps specifically have to become the exception to the rule and must strictly follow their objectives you're going to have to apply that to every other antagonist role too, which is just something that the rules have never been about.

why even have an antagonist you're supposed to RP with if you can just murderbone lmao, just change the name to psychosis or something like that instead if that's what it's meant for

Posted: **Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:09 pm**

Nice, another discussion grinded to a halt because of pro-greytide, "FUCK having to follow guidelines" admins.

Without any guidelines creep is just another survivor antag, there's literally no point in having it. How fucking dense do you have to be to not realize this.

Posted: **Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:33 pm**

It makes little sense to create a antagonist whose existence is to essentially be a creep and obsess over a person, which requires a modicum of roleplay, only to allow it to be used in generic mass murderbone and other shitter play.

Traitors and Changeling being able to do whatever they want is due to the fact they are usually the sole antagonists driving the round, and handicapping them to a major degree would be counter intuitive to the games progression.

I think that any roleplay oriented antagonists, that are not the primary antagonist of the round, should be required to adhere to a higher standard and be required to work towards their objectives. Killing everyone you see is not helping you take pictures of your obsession. Killing someone who disrespected your obsession does make sense.

Posted: **Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:33 pm**

I don't understand how a Creep could even murderbone.

Think about it, you're just a regular crew-member, and all of a sudden you awaken to becoming a Creep.

You have no tools, you're alone. You're still just a regular crew-member, but now you have 3 objectives.

So what do you do? You use the antagonist potential of your job to get some crazy tools to help complete your objective, whilst still trying to be near your target throughout this time, to keep up the good moodlets and gain your green-text.

So with these things in mind. This role has a whole lot of confliction.

If your job is a longwinded one like Xenobiology or Mining. You're going to get SEVERELY heavy negative moodlets that nerf your speed for not being near your target.
You'll have to figure out how to get an Item that allows you to kill your target and complete your objectives.

This is where the confliction comes into play.

1. If your already an antagonist, and the random event creep hits you. You've gained 3 more objectives, no tools to complete them and are getting some bad moodlets for not being near your target. Time to suffer

2. Creeps appear on Medical Scanners, but no one takes the time to actually check mood-lets. If Creep was written in red, or maybe a special medical alert was sent to the medical consoles. More people would be on the lookout for one, so they can fix it.

There's your balance against murder-boning with creep, antagonist or not. Mainly because it's just a 0 telecrystal traitor that ultimately changes the course of your round, and what you'd be doing with it. Because of all the delibating effects of not actually following through with your objectives.

If someone actually murder-bones with creep, they must have gotten it late-game. Because the antag itself will really try to deter you from doing anything except standing near your target and hugging them. And then killing them.

Posted: **Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:42 am**

>be roboticist
>make a combat mech
>get creep
you can see where this is going
same goes for if you have any other weapons before getting creep

Posted: **Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:42 am**

Steelpoint wrote:It makes little sense to create a antagonist whose existence is to essentially be a creep and obsess over a person, which requires a modicum of roleplay, only to allow it to be used in generic mass murderbone and other shitter play.

Traitors and Changeling being able to do whatever they want is due to the fact they are usually the sole antagonists driving the round, and handicapping them to a major degree would be counter intuitive to the games progression.

I think that any roleplay oriented antagonists, that are not the primary antagonist of the round, should be required to adhere to a higher standard and be required to work towards their objectives. Killing everyone you see is not helping you take pictures of your obsession. Killing someone who disrespected your obsession does make sense.

everything steelpoint posted lol

if we want to organically encourage people to roleplay in new and exciting ways the way to do that isn't with an unfettered free reign solo antagonist, sorry to say it fam. it's not pessimism about this community, it's the truth, and it's what was intentionally cultivated. using the existing antagonist system for something like this is functionally code convenience and sensibility more than it has any relevance on how the role itself is supposed to be used.

Posted: **Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:11 am**

On the plus side, only a few people read the forums so most players will keep thinking they're limited by the fluff text and mood mechanics and won't immediately mass bomb or plasma flood the entire station. I remember when I first played revenant and the objectives were something like "don't get noticed, don't cause too much damage" and I thought I actually had to obey them. How naive

Posted: **Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:46 am**

Grazyn wrote:On the plus side, only a few people read the forums so most players will keep thinking they're limited by the fluff text and mood mechanics and won't immediately mass bomb or plasma flood the entire station. I remember when I first played revenant and the objectives were something like "don't get noticed, don't cause too much damage" and I thought I actually had to obey them. How naive

I'm under the impression a smart player reads the rules page first.

Posted: **Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:52 pm**

DemonFiren wrote:
Grazyn wrote:On the plus side, only a few people read the forums so most players will keep thinking they're limited by the fluff text and mood mechanics and won't immediately mass bomb or plasma flood the entire station. I remember when I first played revenant and the objectives were something like "don't get noticed, don't cause too much damage" and I thought I actually had to obey them. How naive
I'm under the impression a smart player reads the rules page first.

This made me realize, it's kinda funny that rule 4 explicitly says that antags aren't allowed to do creepy stuff and this antag literally has to be creepy. No confusion here at all! Just ahelp whenever someone is acting creepy towards you, if they don't get banned go ahead and valid them

Edit: I checked and the fluff text straight up tells them they can murderbone. Welp

Posted: **Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:55 pm**

I think the antag creep and what the rules consider “being creepy” are a bit different even though they use the same word.

Posted: **Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:17 pm**

Creep goals:
take pictures
hug
murder
yes, that isn't creepy at all!

Posted: **Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:57 am**

We just had a ban appeal in which someone literally made the showers seethru so people could watch them monologue about being dirty so all of those seem pretty tame in contrast lol

Posted: **Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:01 am**

>be creep

If you decide to roleplay with the role, you get banned for rule 8.

If you don't roleplay, you get accused of being a murderboning shit head!

This was a bad idea from the start lol

Posted: **Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:43 am**

wesoda25 wrote:>be creep

If you decide to roleplay with the role, you get banned for rule 8.

If you don't roleplay, you get accused of being a murderboning shit head!

This was a bad idea from the start lol

Posted: **Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:39 am**

Creep is a severely ill-conceived antagonist and should never have been merged. Not only is it too RP heavy, but it also is just really doesn't mesh with either how people play antags on /tg/ or what antags are allowed to do within the rules (pretty much anything but being a massive creeper).

The problem is pretty squarely on the antag, not antag policy in general.

Posted: **Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:01 am**

The fluff text reads like the ultimate policy shitfest bait. To clarify, here it is

You are the Creep!
They would call it an obsession. They would call you crazy, because they don't understand your unrequited love. All you know is that you love [trauma.obsession]. And you. will. show them.
I will surely go insane if I don't spend enough time around [trauma.obsession], but when i'm near them too long it gets too difficult to speak properly, making me look like a CREEP!
The gods would like to remind you that this role, as with all other antags, does not allow you to break ANY server rules, especially Rule 8. Feel free to murder and pillage just like any other antag, though.

As far as rules go, it's the same as if it said "You're the Rapist! Your objective is to rape 10 people. Rape is performed by grabbing aggressively and standing over their prone body. Remember, you're not allowed to break server rules though! Oh, and you can ignore everything and just murderbone" (the last part is funny because it's already in the server rules and no other antag fluff text spells it out like that)

Also I love how it calls admins by their IC name of "gods" in what is obviously an OOC sentence with terms like "server" "antag" and the like

Posted: **Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:20 pm**

so creeps are antag+ as they can toeline rule 8

Posted: **Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:54 pm**

The role has demands of a social nature on a server in which there are no structures or good-will.
You want such threats that are not about the entire mode that round then you need a stronger foundation and gameplay.
This thread demonstrates you are not there yet and Creep is just a distraction in the mess, showing you the truth that there is little to do in the station as-is.

Posted: **Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:32 am**

Is this a forum for an online multiplayer game or a support group for people with clinical social anxiety

Posted: **Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:06 am**

Posted: **Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:35 pm**

Grazyn wrote:As far as rules go, it's the same as if it said "You're the Rapist! Your objective is to rape 10 people. Rape is performed by grabbing aggressively and standing over their prone body. Remember, you're not allowed to break server rules though! Oh, and you can ignore everything and just murderbone" (the last part is funny because it's already in the server rules and no other antag fluff text spells it out like that)

Bro, no

Posted: **Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:11 pm**

oranges wrote:
Grazyn wrote:As far as rules go, it's the same as if it said "You're the Rapist! Your objective is to rape 10 people. Rape is performed by grabbing aggressively and standing over their prone body. Remember, you're not allowed to break server rules though! Oh, and you can ignore everything and just murderbone" (the last part is funny because it's already in the server rules and no other antag fluff text spells it out like that)
Bro, no

Posted: **Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:48 pm**

4. Lone antagonists can do whatever they want.
Short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff,

Posted: **Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:34 pm**

Grazyn wrote:4. Lone antagonists can do whatever they want.
Short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff,

By this narrow logic, antags would be eating rule 4 bans for scaring players. "Creepy" is a bit of a broad term, my dude.

Posted: **Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:38 pm**

IkeTG wrote:
Grazyn wrote:4. Lone antagonists can do whatever they want.
Short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff,
By this narrow logic, antags would be eating rule 4 bans for scaring players. "Creepy" is a bit of a broad term, my dude.

It applied to the description of the fluff text so much that the coder decided to change it

Posted: **Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:50 pm**

Grazyn wrote:
IkeTG wrote:
Grazyn wrote:4. Lone antagonists can do whatever they want.
Short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff,
By this narrow logic, antags would be eating rule 4 bans for scaring players. "Creepy" is a bit of a broad term, my dude.
It applied to the description of the fluff text so much that the coder decided to change it

No it was just that you compared his design to essentially allowing people to Rape each other

What the hell, Grazyn.

Posted: **Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:34 pm**

I never said that, i pointed out the contradiction of giving players an objective that is indistinguishable from a behaviour that goes against the rules, it literally calls it being creepy, but at the same time tells players they can't break the rules. In fact, now that the text is changed, it works perfectly because the problem was how the objective was described, not the mechanic itself.

Posted: **Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:24 am**

Grazyn wrote:I never said that, i pointed out the contradiction of giving players an objective that is indistinguishable from a behaviour that goes against the rules, it literally calls it being creepy, but at the same time tells players they can't break the rules.

I've said that there will be more than one case of rule 8 being broken due to Creep. Hell, I think I saw a really minor case of it happen however everyone who saw it must've thought it was funny, including me. The thing is: I just never had or known the meme potential to make a YOU ARE THE RAPIST joke.

If you say it's fixed then that is good however I don't know how you really fix an antag that is supposed to RP as basically a rule 8 breaker or someone who does the most sexual action of all time - holding hands and without consent

fucking 51th post

Posted: **Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:51 am**

Ayy Lemoh wrote:
Grazyn wrote:I never said that, i pointed out the contradiction of giving players an objective that is indistinguishable from a behaviour that goes against the rules, it literally calls it being creepy, but at the same time tells players they can't break the rules.
If you say it's fixed then that is good however I don't know how you really fix an antag that is supposed to RP as basically a rule 8 breaker or someone who does the most sexual action of all time - holding hands and without consent

fucking 51th post

Because in a game of 2d sprites clicking each other it's not the action itself that matters, it's how the game describes it. Take changeling for example: its main mechanic is to stay on top of a prone body to penetrate it without consent, but it works because at no point the game implies something sexual is happening. Creep was the complete opposite, the objective itself was mild (stay close to someone) but everything in the fluff text implied sexual creepiness. It just needed a little rewrite and now it works.

/tg/Station 13

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