SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS

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bman
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SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS

Post by bman » #472283

so, apparently, allegedly, in a community meeting Nervere said that borgs should ignore law 2 orders to kill nonhumans and then ahelp it. i thought it was established that whenever you get a kill order for a nonhuman you should just kill them and the person who ordered it will be liable for the kill, and if there's conflicting law 2 orders you can choose not to kill the nonhuman.

thoughts?
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Re: SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS

Post by wesoda25 » #472285

If this is true thats fucking autistic. Might as well remove asimov because if this is a thing whats the fucking point in being a human. Imagine the one reason other races are added being removed good fucking God.
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Re: SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS

Post by zxaber » #472287

Yeah, kill orders on nonhumans have always been on the shoulders of whoever issued the order, but to be carried out unless otherwise commanded not to. If the silicon doesn't think the kill is valid, they might ahelp it just to warn an admin (if one is present), and follow anything the admin says to do, but flat out ignoring the order after the ahelp as a standard operating procedure sounds terrible. The whole point of Asimov not covering nonhumans is to grant somewhat interesting interactions, including a traitor just telling the borgs to beat their lizard target to death with a wrench (at the risk that the AI or borgs announce the order).

If non-antags ordering random non-human murder is ever a problem, you should be banning the players issuing the order (perhaps force them to be non-human so they can't issue orders?). The problem wouldn't be a problem for long.
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Re: SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS

Post by lmwevil » #472289

just do the kill, the guy could be an antag and it's a soft antag tell if you get told not to lol
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Re: SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS

Post by zxaber » #472290

The problem is, a Nervere said to ahelp and ignore it. Granted, it was at the tail end of the community meeting dealio, but does that not count as a head ruling?
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Re: SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS

Post by iamgoofball » #472294

zxaber wrote:The problem is, a Nervere said to ahelp and ignore it. Granted, it was at the tail end of the community meeting dealio, but does that not count as a head ruling?
if it isnt written down it doesn't matter, plus this ruling violaes Asimov anyways
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Re: SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS

Post by Nilons » #472295

I was always told that telling a borg to kill someone directly is entirely on whoever gives the orders, which makes the most sense cause if you use a possessed sword to kill someone the spirit inside the sword doesnt cop a ban obviously the guy who actually is responsible for the killing gets it
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Re: SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS

Post by Fatal » #472297

From the silicon rules page:

Obviously unreasonable or obnoxious orders (collect all X, do Y meaningless task) are a violation of Server Rule 1. The occurrence of such an attempt should be adminhelped and then disregarded.
Ordering a cyborg to pick a particular module without an extreme need for a particular module or a prior agreement is both an unreasonable and an obnoxious order.

I guess you could count it as an obviously unreasonable order to randomly murder another crewmember

This is probably in light of a few people getting into fights with non-humans and then ordering borgs to murder them because, you know, gotta escalate to murder all the time right, at least, that's my thoughts on it
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Re: SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS

Post by Gigapuddi420 » #472301

I have always gone on the assumption that when any silicon is given a law 2 order to kill a non-human, it should follow that order unless someone countermands that order. A classic example is some assistant shouting 'kill all the non-humans' followed by security or head of staff ordering the AI not to kill all non-humans. Most silicon players will delay slightly for the countermand, but if no countermand comes it's a legal asimov order. That said, I think admins err on caution by advising people to ahelp the order so a server rule breaking order doesn't actually go through. I don't know how I feel about that; one of the issues with playing a non-human race is knowing that Damocles sword is above you and the silicons can be ordered to kill you without the usual protections of asimov. That's an intentional flaw for playing non-human characters. Valid orders to kill non-humans can occur for a number of reasons, I don't mind being killed once or twice by random shitters asking AI to kill non-humans if those shitters eat a ban for it.
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Re: SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS

Post by leibniz » #472314

I thought it was only for orders like "remove ALL non-humans from the station", since it is really risk free antagging.
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Re: SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS

Post by Grazyn » #472337

zxaber wrote:Yeah, kill orders on nonhumans have always been on the shoulders of whoever issued the order, but to be carried out unless otherwise commanded not to. If the silicon doesn't think the kill is valid, they might ahelp it just to warn an admin (if one is present), and follow anything the admin says to do, but flat out ignoring the order after the ahelp as a standard operating procedure sounds terrible.
I remember a recent headmin ruling that was exactly that, ahelp and do it. I will try to find it
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Re: SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS

Post by Grazyn » #472339

Here it is
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 33&t=19306
Arianya wrote:If someone gives you an order that you think is rule violating, report it to the admins and do it.

If someone orders you to do an action you find ICly distasteful then you are allowed to delay and complain about the order within reason and your laws. You still have to do the order though.

Simplemobs are considered non-human under Silicon Policy. As other's have stated this is as much a concession due to their unstunnable, murderous nature as anything.

I think that answers all of the points raised in the thread.
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Re: SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS

Post by Anuv » #472340

Crewsimov roundstart when (protect our catgirls)
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Re: SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS

Post by wesoda25 » #472346

Anuv wrote:Crewsimov roundstart when (protect our catgirls)
Never

Also Grazyn, I believe that ruling would be more towards stuff that would break actual rules (ie ordering a borg to say every admins ooc name icly). Ahelping when told to kill someone isn’t necessarily bad, a sort of “hey, im doing this” type deal. But you should absolutely not delay in the order after the ahelp (barring asking for someone to negate the order in a round about way).
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Re: SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS

Post by Grazyn » #472349

wesoda25 wrote:
Anuv wrote:Crewsimov roundstart when (protect our catgirls)
Never

Also Grazyn, I believe that ruling would be more towards stuff that would break actual rules (ie ordering a borg to say every admins ooc name icly). Ahelping when told to kill someone isn’t necessarily bad, a sort of “hey, im doing this” type deal. But you should absolutely not delay in the order after the ahelp (barring asking for someone to negate the order in a round about way).
Killing for no reason as non antag is against rule 1, in this case you're the tool used to break the rule. Also that thread was literally about being ordered to kill a non human
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Re: SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS

Post by ohnopigeons » #472370

Ignore Nervere

I really don't understand this mentality of telling players to ahelp everything. I thought we had moved past that.
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Re: SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS

Post by Nervere » #472374

This isn't what I said.
If you're on Asimov and you get an order to kill a non-human, you're free to kill them. The responsibility for the kill falls on the human who gave the order.
What I said during the meeting is that, I, personally try to stall the order when it happens and may end up ahelping it if it feels suspicious. I just think it's good courtesy. This is by no means a requirement.
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