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Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:05 pm
by Eskjjlj
The rule on the matter is :

4. Lone antagonists can do whatever they want.
Short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals.


The problem is, there are two interpretations :

1) Antags must be careful about not killing people who just spawned without having a valid reason such as defending themselves.
2) The rule is against literally camping arrivals to only kill fresh spawns not just getting a one off kill here and there.

For context, on the one hand I have a note telling me to pay more attention to not kill people who just spawned even though it was just a one off kill and I had a justification. The person I killed found a corpse I had hidden (rather poorly but still) and he was screaming about it on the radio :
2018-08-30 12:27:33 | Bagil | [redacted]
Please be careful of the people you attack near the arrivals shuttle, especially if they had just arrived.

And on the other hand I was spawn killed very recently and the admins online ruled that since the antags weren't literally camping arrivals it was not against the rules.

Once again, the players shouldn't be expected to read the admin's minds on what is the spirit of the rules so it would be really nice to have the community's opinion on this matter and perhaps a headmin ruling.

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:54 pm
by Anuv
Add a 30 second spawning immunity or something

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:47 pm
by Dax Dupont
A single kill with REASON would probably be fine, just killing someone at arrivals fnr is shitty.

Also 'killing people who spawned recently' is a poor title, this rule only applies to arrivals.

It doesn't apply to ashlizards for instance who generally respawn within seconds.

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:45 pm
by BeeSting12
It's 100% against the rules to spawn kill right out of arrivals. Spawn killing over by cargo on meta for example is probably still against the spirit of this rule. I still see it as somewhat shitty to kill a captain the second he gets to his office but you also have a decent reason to as an antag so I wouldn't punish for it.

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:28 pm
by Screemonster
The problem with asking for a defined line on this is that like many other situations it's heavily context-dependent and there isn't really a one-size-fits-all solution
a 30 second spawn immunity would be awful if you happen to be caught in a fight near arrivals just as someone latejoins and suddenly you've got a briefly-immortal new challenger approaching

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:40 am
by Gigapuddi420
Basically just try your best not to murderbone around arrivals to avoid killing someone who just spawned in. It's hard to provide a catch-all definition because situations can vary. If you're passing the area with some obvious weapon out and a new arrival starts to come for you then you should be allowed to dunk them.

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:15 am
by zxaber
My interpretation was always that the shuttle is the safe zone, the station is not. I don't know if that actually reflects how it's handled, or even where I first got that from, but that was my understanding.

The only time I've ever really been killed right after stepping off was to a plasma fire (which is pretty indiscriminate), and I've never murderboned to the point where the arrivals shuttle was a factor, so I've never directly been affected by the rule.

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:50 am
by Ayy Lemoh
Whoever kills someone on the arrival shuttle, unless that someone ran in, is to be punished for spawncamping. It is completely dishonorable and a dick move.

Whenever I saw antags on or seeming like they target the arrival shuttle, I always threatened them to leave or suffer consequences in the form of a BSA nuking them.

HOWEVER in context of different ghost roles, I never had a situation with that. I'd say it depends on their antag status since charlie station ghost role members aren't really likely to try and kill you compared to ashwalkers.

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:51 am
by Eskjjlj
I thought it was obvious I was asking about new arrivals since the official stance on ghost roles is that they don't have any rights but sure we can change the title.

It seems the admins who posted on this thread agree that killing people who just got out of the arrival shuttle is agaisnt the rules.

I did my own testing and it takes about 10-15 seconds to go from the arrival shuttle to the main hallway. What if a murderboning antag sees a new crew member walking in this hallway and kills him?
Unless the antag had been listening to tcomms he had no way to know he just spawn killed someone 20 seconds after they joined the game and it would not be reasonable to punish him for it.

Now, what about a new crew member who lingers in arrivals for a few minutes. Here again a murderboner arrives and kills this person not knowing he was a fresh spawn unless he made the effort to read tcomms and remember his name for a few minutes.

What I'm trying to point out is that unless you see someone walk out of the arrival shuttle it's impossible to know whether they are a fresh spawn or if they are just walking in arrivals. It can argued that as an antag you can figure out who is a new crew member by reading tcomms but frankly that's too much effort considering the murderboning antag has other things to focus on and comms can be down for various reasons, not mentionning the chat spam which comes with combat or radio chatter.

How can we ask an antag to be careful to not kill new crewmembers when the only way to know they are new is to see them walk out of the arrival shuttle?

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:49 pm
by Ayy Lemoh
Eskjjlj wrote:How can we ask an antag to be careful to not kill new crewmembers when the only way to know they are new is to see them walk out of the arrival shuttle?

The arrival shuttle is the safe zone. As soon as you leave the arrival shuttle then you are not safe however that doesn't mean someone can wait for you to leave THEN kill you.

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:24 pm
by Cobby
Personally I find it dumb to hide a body in/near spawn so that's on you tbh.

Simply avoid spawn if you plan on culling the crew.

If you're camping outside of the shuttle to kill people who came off the shuttle I'd still be upset tbh.

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:17 pm
by Arianya
Personal opinion, not headmin ruling, etc. etc.

This is heavily context dependent, and even the shuttle is not necessarily safe in all circumstances. (For example, if someone spent 10 minutes afk there and was your objective, I would have very little issue with you butchering them)

There's no way to form a perfect, concrete rule, especially since even "lines in the sand" (like "reaching the main hallway") are wildly variable depending on the map in question.

The spirit of it is thus: Don't kill/convert/otherwise give newly arrived people grief. Generally the rule of thumb I've used is that they should have opportunity to reach their workplace, but obviously this isn't a hard and fast rule (an engineer is never going to "reach their workplace" if Engineering is a crater.

How can we ask an antag to be careful to not kill new crewmembers when the only way to know they are new is to see them walk out of the arrival shuttle?


This is why context matters. It may be that you weren't aware and thus you're not violating this rule, which is understandable. On the other hand if you hang out by the main hallway sniping anyone who steps out of the arrivals wing then I'm going to take your claims to ignorance pretty dimly.

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:25 pm
by Ayy Lemoh
Arianya wrote:This is heavily context dependent, and even the shuttle is not necessarily safe in all circumstances. (For example, if someone spent 10 minutes afk there and was your objective, I would have very little issue with you butchering them)

The spirit of it is thus: Don't kill/convert/otherwise give newly arrived people grief.

1. If it's a roundstart antag target then there is no way he was in the arrival shuttle. Killing him is fine then. If it's a midround antag target and it's someone who went afk in the arrival shuttle then you should take a bit to make sure he's actually afk. If it's someone you have never seen before then try saying "are you awake" or something.

2. yeah, that's right.

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:15 am
by Shadowflame909
I have one concern about this, let us say you are trying to gun your target down for some reason and he darts into arrivals. You get him in arrivals and suddenly this new joiner assistant starts screaming his head off about how you're a traitor and even a step further trying to take the body from you.


I feel like some leeway to this rule should be given if people are actively getting themselves involved in a conflict, as a new arrival?

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:53 am
by Screemonster
Shadowflame909 wrote:I have one concern about this, let us say you are trying to gun your target down for some reason and he darts into arrivals. You get him in arrivals and suddenly this new joiner assistant starts screaming his head off about how you're a traitor and even a step further trying to take the body from you.


I feel like some leeway to this rule should be given if people are actively getting themselves involved in a conflict, as a new arrival?

I think it's more a case of "give new joiners a chance to leave spawn before going after them". If they don't take that opportunity to make themselves scarce and instead throw themselves directly into the nearest conflict regardless of context, they're fair game.

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:55 am
by TehSteveo
Context is key when arrivals killings happen. Can't really tell people to leave all arrivals alone considering there's parts of the station there that is useful nearby. If an antagonist is on the run from security or whoever, you happen to arrive, and get killed then it's just poor timing. However if someone is purposefully just sitting around for new arrivals for easy kills...different story.

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:25 pm
by Not-Dorsidarf
Casual reminder that the rules forbid spawncamping, not spawnkilling.
No idea where everyone got the idea that there's a magic invincibility bubble for people fresh off the shuttle who were unlucky enough to stumble into a changeling on the run from sec.

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:27 pm
by subject217
ADMIN HE BROKE THE NEW LIFE RULE

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:46 pm
by pubby
Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Casual reminder that the rules forbid spawncamping, not spawnkilling.
No idea where everyone got the idea that there's a magic invincibility bubble for people fresh off the shuttle who were unlucky enough to stumble into a changeling on the run from sec.


Dude knows what he's talking about.

Unavoidable deaths are part of the game. If you get hit with a syringe and die before you can react, tough shit. If you get hit by a TTV blast and instantly gibbed, tough shit. So tell me, why should spawn kills be any different? Not all spawn kills, mind you. If the mime chokes the clown out at roundstart, that's okay. But if you do it on the arrival shuttle then your actions are somehow worse?

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:25 pm
by Cobby
So then what's the problem with spawn camping? It's just multiple spawn killings and unavoidable deaths are part of the game.

I honestly don't see the difference unless you are defining spawnkilling as literally killing IN the spawn regardless of the time spent in spawn (ok /w context) vs. killing people who have actually just spawned (icky). At that point though we're back at the discussion everyone else has been having so I don't see how that clarification was helpful.

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:52 pm
by lmwevil
when in doubt, just don't be a dick - people who LITERALLY JUST WALKED OUT of the shuttle is really cruel to kill them, they wanna play the game if only for a few minutes not seconds before you murder their ass

if they decide to engage you for some dumbass reason then of course they're valid since they wanna die. remember context is key, it's not like they have an immunity bubble it's just trying to have some common decency to another person as you murderbone

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:49 pm
by Nilons
It should be a situation where if an admin thinks youre hanging around spawn killing people too long they shoot you a message asking you to go away from there for a while, that way its not a hard rule and if it becomes a problem nobody can say they werent warned

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:26 am
by oranges
Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Casual reminder that the rules forbid spawncamping, not spawnkilling.
No idea where everyone got the idea that there's a magic invincibility bubble for people fresh off the shuttle who were unlucky enough to stumble into a changeling on the run from sec.

probably ancient DNA memories from when there was no killing in spawn

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:37 am
by Ayy Lemoh
ideally, you will never die when you first spawn assuming you don't go afk for 20 minutes. Only the most luckiest and quickest of people will be able to do so.

that is why people don't care about spawnkilling at that moment.

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:18 am
by Cobby
Nilons wrote:It should be a situation where if an admin thinks youre hanging around spawn killing people too long they shoot you a message asking you to go away from there for a while, that way its not a hard rule and if it becomes a problem nobody can say they werent warned


Is this not what happens

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:47 am
by Shadowflame909
This makes me think of another Scenario.

Let us say that a Ling is in fact on the run from sec, having nowhere to hide and no maint access. They dart into the front-room of the shuttle.

Afk dave is there and in need of another disguise. The ling does the quick succ.

Another newbie appears in the mid of the lings succ.

What should the ling do in this realistic scenario? Kill them as well? Flee as to not kill so many new arrivals?

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:52 am
by Cobby
just dna sting the assistant instead of getting the succ at spawn like a r*tard

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:25 am
by Shadowflame909
good point

my argument is destroyed

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:47 am
by Yakumo_Chen
I always was under the impression that you were totally protected (via the rules) if you spawn on the shuttle, even if you are, say, security and there happens to be an obvious traitor on the shuttle. I almost certainly remember reading that you can't kill freshly spawned security, etc on the arrivals shuttle even if they engage you.

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 7:11 am
by Timonk
Wasn't there a thing that said players had spawn protection until they reached their department?

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 8:39 am
by zxaber
Trouble with that logic is that once you reach the main halls, there's no easy way for an antag to know that you just arrived. Their only clue is the arrival announcement, which is easy to miss on a good day, and is also affected by tcomms issues.

If we want to give spawn protection until people reach their department, we ought to have new players arrive in drop pods and throw out the arrivals shuttle entirely. Though, that's something to take to the ideas forum.

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 12:29 pm
by NecromancerAnne
So in a reasonably recent round, a miner brought up the ashlizards eggs up to the station. I wasn't aware of that at the time of pushing the button and I woke up in a locker surrounded by people who immediately set upon me.

Does this fall into the same category? Like, while valid it felt really validhunty and kind of a massive dick move just to spawn and immediately be attacked, valid or not under any other circumstances. Especially since I was forced onto the station in the first place, which under normal circumstances I wouldn't normally be allowed to do.

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 3:08 pm
by Cobby
No because ghost roles are secondary and you're pretty much valid to the crew as an ashy anyways.

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 6:42 am
by Yakumo_Chen
I once had a wizard kill me freshly spawned off arrivals, via rod or something. Wizard didn't get punished, I was told "it's wizard it doesn't matter lol" by an admin, who only revived me after I had to ask for it. Round was ages and ages ago but I'll never forget it happened.

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 8:40 pm
by PKPenguin321
Yakumo_Chen wrote:I once had a wizard kill me freshly spawned off arrivals, via rod or something. Wizard didn't get punished, I was told "it's wizard it doesn't matter lol" by an admin, who only revived me after I had to ask for it. Round was ages and ages ago but I'll never forget it happened.

generally if an antag just happens to be going through the arrivals shuttle in a mad dash or just ends up there by circumstance rather than because they were actively camping for new players (VERY common with wizards), that antag wont be punished should a new arrival just happen to be in the way and get injured. i've helped heal some unfortunate players that had that happen to them so it's still worth ahelping if it happens to you.

like your example is literally an instance where if a wizard just happens to be flying through arrivals in rod form and you happen to spawn in his path, it wouldnt be fair to him to ban him, since he had basically no control of where you would end up and he likely had good reason to be rod forming there (like evading sec that chased him to arrivals).

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:18 pm
by Yakumo_Chen
PKPenguin321 wrote:
Yakumo_Chen wrote:I once had a wizard kill me freshly spawned off arrivals, via rod or something. Wizard didn't get punished, I was told "it's wizard it doesn't matter lol" by an admin, who only revived me after I had to ask for it. Round was ages and ages ago but I'll never forget it happened.

generally if an antag just happens to be going through the arrivals shuttle in a mad dash or just ends up there by circumstance rather than because they were actively camping for new players (VERY common with wizards), that antag wont be punished should a new arrival just happen to be in the way and get injured. i've helped heal some unfortunate players that had that happen to them so it's still worth ahelping if it happens to you.

like your example is literally an instance where if a wizard just happens to be flying through arrivals in rod form and you happen to spawn in his path, it wouldnt be fair to him to ban him, since he had basically no control of where you would end up and he likely had good reason to be rod forming there (like evading sec that chased him to arrivals).

Wasn't though, he just ran into the shuttle, saw me, and killed me. Didn't see anyone run in after he left.

It might have been ragin Mages or something but the admin was convinced I wasn't going to live long off the shuttle so my life didn't matter despite the blatant shuttle kill

Re: Killing people who spawned recently

PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 6:25 pm
by Hulkamania
At the end of the day this is mostly left to admin discretion. While we do not allow outright spawn camping or killing people who spawned directly off the boat, that doesn't make you immune to all types of antagonistic activity. This is highly context sensitive, and mostly comes down to intent from the person or persons involved in the process.

If you or a group of people were intentionally camping arrivals to convert/kill people that's not allowed. If someone happened to be fresh off the boat and wander into you while you're killing someone and you kill them as well, that is allowed. This will always have some edge cases that require a bit of finesse on the part of the admin, but ultimately adding things like "you can't attack them until they get to their workplace" or "x amount of time after spawning" are going to cause more issues than they solve.