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People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:38 am
by Yakumo_Chen
I've been talking about this in an assistant thread, but I think it should warrant actual policy.

It's bad for the game when every single player in a department fucks off from their job and refuses to do it. Outside of antags being antags, the base requirement expected for almost every non-assistant job on the station is that you at least make some attempt to do it before going off and doing whatever autism. Departments will work mostly fine if there's at least one person who bothers to spend the 5 minutes doing their thing, but when nobody does their job, the station suffers and admins or the rest of the crew are forced to start intervening (or the shuttle is just called because the round becomes shit)

Some examples:

Engineering: Basic station functionality
Job: So long as there's an AI or borg, engineers barely even have to do their job. Apply wrench to the two N2 cannisters already sitting where they need to be, go get some plasma tanks from the tank dispenser and put them in the collectors sitting near single-pane windows next to the SM. That's literally it, the AI can do the rest.
Consequences: Inevitably the power will run out. Literally nothing functions on the station without a power source, so the round might as well end if nobody wants to bother. Arguably the most important job on the station.

Science: Round progression
Job: We've reduced research to a game where you click buttons on a console and the round progresses. There's also other autism things you can do in science but they contribute nothing to the round typically except autism / antagging
Consequences: Almost none because if the scientists don't push the buttons inevitably someone will break in to press the buttons. It's still shitty if scientists aren't bothering to do any autism though. Consequences used to be greater when research was actually a vaguely involved job.

Mining: Round progression
Job: Bump into the Colossus and die. Also bring ores back up to space maybe
Consequences: The only reason anyone picks miner is to actually do their job, since miners loitering on the station early in the round are almost advertising they are antag. Science and mining are linked in that the round won't progress if neither do anything. Mining is more excusable though since half the time they just die anyway. Rounds without miners are still short-lived though.

Security: Round longevity
Job: Antag deterrent / Antag lootbox
Consequences: I am almost vaguely sure there is at least some expectation in the rules to not just grief / greytide as security or give all your things to a tider. If you want to AFK, go do it in brig

======================================
What should we do?

I'm not saying that you should be banned for not doing your job every single round, but if nobody is doing their job, even after crew harassment to go do it, admins should be taking notes. Seeing power not set up multiple rounds in a row with engineers should be ringing some warning bells. Job bans for people who consistently fuck off to do something else / greytide. If you want to greytide, stick to Assistant.

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:58 am
by zxaber
Though it's more a code issue, perhaps nerfing assistants isn't the smartest idea?

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:11 pm
by somerandomguy
Power lasts like 30 minutes, more than enough for a round on bagil
None of the others actually have any consequences

Also as I've said before at this level of rp we'd start banning validhunters too

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:37 pm
by Grazyn
zxaber wrote:Though it's more a code issue, perhaps nerfing assistants isn't the smartest idea?

Yes, there will always be people who want to play a round with no responsibilities, if playing as assistant is miserable they just choose another role and play it in the exact same way. But it's not necessary a code issue because banning them would also solve the problem (they'll move to another server)

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:08 pm
by LaKiller8
As long as people are not malicious in their incompetence and are willing to learn and improve if they're playing an important job I don't think they should be jobbanned, there's already playtime requirements for most of the high impact jobs.

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:53 pm
by Fatal
At least on bagil this is mostly an issue with engineers because regularly there are 3+ and nobody sets up the SM or solars, and then fix nothing

Why even pick engineer if you don't want to build an autism fort or fix the station

Besides free gloves and tools

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:54 pm
by Dax Dupont
go back to bay

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:10 pm
by Dr_bee
Dax Dupont wrote:go back to bay


No.

There needs to be a bare minimum of roleplay for the game to even function as it is designed.

That bare minimum of roleplay should at least be doing the job you signed up as. And not using it as a method to get free swag and greytide.

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:07 pm
by iamgoofball
when we make people do their jobs via the actual video game mechanics, players throw a hissy fit and just play assistant then HOP into whatever job they want to do

this is not worth your time, stop pushing the point unless you want to add a skills system to go along with this

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:00 pm
by Dr_bee
iamgoofball wrote:this is not worth your time, stop pushing the point unless you want to add a skills system to go along with this


As much as I found Robustin's idea of balance frustrating his engineering GBP idea was a good code solution to this problem. Incentives tend to cause less anger than punishments. flies and honey and all that.

That being said, some policy enforcment would be nice, it sounds very similar to the roundstart suicide on not getting antag.

Non-antags need to play the game in good faith to function. If everyone is greytiding there really is no game at all.

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:18 pm
by Yakumo_Chen
somerandomguy wrote:Power lasts like 30 minutes, more than enough for a round on bagil
None of the others actually have any consequences

Also as I've said before at this level of rp we'd start banning validhunters too

if the shuttle is being called explicitly because there's no power despite living, active engineers and a functioning SM, there's a player problem.

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:12 pm
by Denton
IC issue

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:43 pm
by Farquaar
Denton wrote:IC issue

This tbh
Just demote the layabouts

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:21 pm
by wesoda25
no

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:35 am
by PKPenguin321
player freedom when it comes to your job is one of the pillars that holds server. imagine if we banned atmos techs for building forts when technically they're supposed to just watch the pipes all round.

that said, if somebody ditches their job and it's something critical (a doctor ignoring people, an engineer not setting up power), feel free to beat them up ICly.

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:40 am
by BeeSting12
Standards for heads and security already exist. Other than that, IC issue, call security on them or beat them up and do their job for them.

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:01 am
by Dr_bee
BeeSting12 wrote:Standards for heads and security already exist. Other than that, IC issue, call security on them or beat them up and do their job for them.


The problem is security isnt able to solve the problem typically, due to understaffing or general chaos. And trying to force people to do thier job with force opens you up to murder via shit escalation rules.

If calling security worked engineering wouldnt be greytide with gloves.

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:08 am
by wesoda25
Be the change you want to see. Only YOU can make doing your job cool again!

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:09 am
by Yuki
Job ban people who valid hunt instead of doing their job, like Yakumo here.

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:14 am
by Malkraz
Yakumo_Chen wrote:if the shuttle is being called explicitly because there's no power despite living, active engineers and a functioning SM, there's a player problem.

The shuttle callers are just as much at fault because any braindead monkey can say "AI door" and set up the engine in 3 minutes in the Engineer's place.

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:24 am
by Phony_Name
somerandomguy wrote:Power lasts like 30 minutes, more than enough for a round on bagil
None of the others actually have any consequences

Also as I've said before at this level of rp we'd start banning validhunters too

imagine actually having this mindset lmao

PKpenguin321 wrote:player freedom when it comes to your job is one of the pillars that holds server. imagine if we banned atmos techs for building forts when technically they're supposed to just watch the pipes all round.

Obviously the intent isn't to ban people from doing the things they find fun. The thing is, if you pick a job that has responsibility, you should be held to that responsibility. Jobs are jobs, not item access codes. I cannot tell you how many rounds I see a Roboticist make a Durand, 0 borgs, and sit in it waiting for VALIDS to find all round, or an Engineer use their roundstart access to a RCD and insulateds for advanced tiding and not even wrenching the canisters in. This causes everyone else's round to suck as power goes out or no borgs are around to respawn into.

Yuki wrote:Job ban people who valid hunt instead of doing their job, like Yakumo here.

Yakumo's suggestion of it being noteworthy is a good one -- It demonstrates a pattern of shitty behavior, showing the player wants to make 2d men horizontal instead of do anything, and denying someone who actually wanted to do said job the slot. We should not allow jobs to just be big strong item rationing on a battle royale server for valids.

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:13 am
by oranges
no admin will ever enforce this because the last thing they want to do is argue in ban/note appeals with a community who can't even agree on what it means to play ss13

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:55 pm
by somerandomguy
>imaging having this mindset
I'm not saying it's a good thing, I'm just saying it doesn't derail rounds enough to ban for it
If there was less roundstart power, the engine would actually be important

[Deleted]

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:53 pm
by confused rock
PostThis post was deleted by PKPenguin321 on Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:52 pm.
Reason: Emptyquote

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:09 pm
by Yodeler
While I don't think people who just wander off or are incompetent should be punished, I don't like it when someone treats a job as an upgraded assistant role. It doesn't bother me if people powergame or break into places, but if they don't do their job and just use the equipment to tide I think they should be told to stop. Ex. Sec robbing people, chemist making only thermite and meth and tiding, engineer breaking into places roundstart instead of getting power.

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:50 am
by PKPenguin321
Yodeler wrote:While I don't think people who just wander off or are incompetent should be punished, I don't like it when someone treats a job as an upgraded assistant role. It doesn't bother me if people powergame or break into places, but if they don't do their job and just use the equipment to tide I think they should be told to stop. Ex. Sec robbing people, chemist making only thermite and meth and tiding, engineer breaking into places roundstart instead of getting power.

That's a different issue and we already have jobbans for that kind of thing

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:52 am
by PKPenguin321
Phony_Name wrote:
PKpenguin321 wrote:player freedom when it comes to your job is one of the pillars that holds server. imagine if we banned atmos techs for building forts when technically they're supposed to just watch the pipes all round.

Obviously the intent isn't to ban people from doing the things they find fun. The thing is, if you pick a job that has responsibility, you should be held to that responsibility. Jobs are jobs, not item access codes. I cannot tell you how many rounds I see a Roboticist make a Durand, 0 borgs, and sit in it waiting for VALIDS to find all round, or an Engineer use their roundstart access to a RCD and insulateds for advanced tiding and not even wrenching the canisters in. This causes everyone else's round to suck as power goes out or no borgs are around to respawn into.

blow it out your ass, roboticists getting to use mechs is 100% legit and i will never, EVER ban them for that (unless theyre blatantly non-antag murderboning or rule breaking or whatever, but that goes without saying). i will ESPECIALLY not ban them for not building you "borgs to respawn into", you big baby.

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:54 am
by Farquaar
Yodeler wrote:While I don't think people who just wander off or are incompetent should be punished, I don't like it when someone treats a job as an upgraded assistant role. It doesn't bother me if people powergame or break into places, but if they don't do their job and just use the equipment to tide I think they should be told to stop. Ex. Sec robbing people, chemist making only thermite and meth and tiding, engineer breaking into places roundstart instead of getting power.


According to rule 1 precedents unprovoked/serial grief and tiding is already against the rules. For abusing one's position to be deliberately incompetent or malicious is also punishable according to rule 5 precedents. Like PK said, there's stuff already on the books for that. People slacking off, however, is an IC issue.

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:28 am
by wesoda25
In conclusion players can be fucking cunts.

Deadass just go as department head and demote cunts who don’t do their job.

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:32 am
by Malkraz
How about we assign people jobs and gulag them if they don't do them

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:11 am
by NecromancerAnne
Engineers are a pretty blatant example of a job that is extremely simple at a baseline yet consistently sees people not touching the thing it's supposed to do every round. Fire up the engine. A basic n2 setup takes less than 5 minutes tops if you know how to do it all by heart, and requires next to no knowledge about atmospherics or even advanced setups for the SM to get to work. There isn't an excuse to not do it, yet it happens. It might be worth changing that from a code perspective, sure. Maybe have the station drain of power more quickly by increasing power consumption by a smidgen (and encourages consistently upgrading not just machines but the APC's attached to those machines too, and seeking better more efficient power sources to meet those power demands).

Then maybe you'd have justification for coming down on players consistently flaunting their IC responsibilities as the round literally comes to a crashing halt because of a lack of power.

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:51 am
by Yakumo_Chen
The people opposing this I see are missing the key word "consistently", as in, every round. I don't care if an atmos tech fucks off in a round to build a fort somewhere. I do think if the atmos tech is fucking off from their job every single round to greytide until someone kills them, or are blatantly obviously only playing atmos tech for antag rolls to flood plasma, they should just be an Assistant and can just break into atmos on their antag rounds.

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:56 am
by Malkraz
ok

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:18 am
by Grazyn
You can already kill them if they greytide

It's not metagrudging if they greytide every round and you kill them every round

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:33 pm
by Not-Dorsidarf
Is this a veiled ban request for the guy who rolled captain 10 times in a row yesterday and didn't secure the disk even during nuke ops?

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:42 pm
by lmwevil
lol this is a stupid ass thread

[Deleted]

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:08 am
by obscolene
PostThis post was deleted by PKPenguin321 on Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:27 am.
Reason: Emptyquote

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:04 am
by Yakumo_Chen
Grazyn wrote:You can already kill them if they greytide

It's not metagrudging if they greytide every round and you kill them every round

They are still wasting the job slot and whatever resources they grab roundstart to greytide

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Is this a veiled ban request for the guy who rolled captain 10 times in a row yesterday and didn't secure the disk even during nuke ops?
No, this is just an observation from a lot of play, especially as silicons and not getting any help with the engine despite full departments.

Also as AI observing atmos not set up almost every single round. Why do we even have this as its own job?

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:24 pm
by somerandomguy
>why is atmos it's own job
For advanced gases, firefighting, etc.

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:23 pm
by wesoda25
Yakumo_Chen wrote:The people opposing this I see are missing the key word "consistently", as in, every round. I don't care if an atmos tech fucks off in a round to build a fort somewhere. I do think if the atmos tech is fucking off from their job every single round to greytide until someone kills them, or are blatantly obviously only playing atmos tech for antag rolls to flood plasma, they should just be an Assistant and can just break into atmos on their antag rounds.

Implying admins should waste their time watching for patterns of behavior that usually rides below the radar. Game needs less OOC resolutions and more IC ones, which you could do by demoting these people.

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:07 pm
by tinodrima7020
>beat people up for not doing their jobs
>get bwoinked, noted, and banned for bad escalation
Very cool

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:08 pm
by Ayy Lemoh
tinodrima7020 wrote:>beat people up for not doing their jobs
>get bwoinked, noted, and banned for bad escalation
Very cool

and that's assuming you win.

If you lose then you get to be dead for the whole round since you did first blood. Security may also side with him instead of you depending on luck.

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:15 pm
by Farquaar
Ayy Lemoh wrote:
tinodrima7020 wrote:>beat people up for not doing their jobs
>get bwoinked, noted, and banned for bad escalation
Very cool

and that's assuming you win.

If you lose then you get to be dead for the whole round since you did first blood. Security may also side with him instead of you depending on luck.

I think it will heavily depend on whether you:
A) Jump from asking them nicely to wordlessly beating them within an inch of their life
or
B) Make it a point that they will be demoted, and that if they refuse to cooperate there will be consequences before beating them to a pulp.

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:19 pm
by PKPenguin321
tinodrima7020 wrote:>beat people up for not doing their jobs
>get bwoinked, noted, and banned for bad escalation
Very cool

t. hasn't actually tried it
"beat them up" doesn't mean "wordlessly gank them with no warning, murder them, gib them, and bury the remains" btw

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:19 am
by Nilons
PKPenguin321 wrote:
tinodrima7020 wrote:>beat people up for not doing their jobs
>get bwoinked, noted, and banned for bad escalation
Very cool

t. hasn't actually tried it
"beat them up" doesn't mean "wordlessly gank them with no warning, murder them, gib them, and bury the remains" btw

Currently that's pretty accurate if you put them into Crit, when was the last time you did that

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:50 am
by somerandomguy
PKPenguin321 wrote:
tinodrima7020 wrote:>beat people up for not doing their jobs
>get bwoinked, noted, and banned for bad escalation
Very cool

t. hasn't actually tried it
"beat them up" doesn't mean "wordlessly gank them with no warning, murder them, gib them, and bury the remains" btw

If you beat them up but don't kill them they have license to kill you, probably for good

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:17 am
by Dr_bee
somerandomguy wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
tinodrima7020 wrote:>beat people up for not doing their jobs
>get bwoinked, noted, and banned for bad escalation
Very cool

t. hasn't actually tried it
"beat them up" doesn't mean "wordlessly gank them with no warning, murder them, gib them, and bury the remains" btw

If you beat them up but don't kill them they have license to kill you, probably for good


Which is why solving shit via the "escalation" system never worked. You are opening yourself up to be straight up murdered even if you are in the right. Half the time people WANT you to start shit so they can finish it.

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:53 am
by PKPenguin321
somerandomguy wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
tinodrima7020 wrote:>beat people up for not doing their jobs
>get bwoinked, noted, and banned for bad escalation
Very cool

t. hasn't actually tried it
"beat them up" doesn't mean "wordlessly gank them with no warning, murder them, gib them, and bury the remains" btw

If you beat them up but don't kill them they have license to kill you, probably for good

you people are helpless. yeah no shit if you start getting up on people they can fight back. it doesn't mean the system doesn't work, it means you need to get fucking good instead of crying about how much you fucking suck at the game.

1. Say something like "Hey buddy, go to work or else I'm gonna kick your ass"
2a. They are now listening and working. You are done.
2b. Assuming they ignore you or refuse, start throwing punches
3a. They are now listening and working. You are done.
3b. Assuming they start running or fighting back, keep throwing punches (or use weapons or whatever).
4a. They are now listening and working. You are done.
4b. They are now in crit or dead. Drag their stupid ass to the medbay and throw them over the counter.

If you get whooped instead of them, tough luck. Be more prepared before calling people out next time. Also consider calling for help from sec or any other relevant persons.

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:55 am
by Ispiria
I regularly play CMO and have three rules for my underlings, which if not followed will result in a forcible demotion (this is one of the reasons heads get telebatons, you know).

Virologist is not allowed to be outside of the lab while infected with an unauthorized virus unless wearing a biosuit.

Chemists who blow up/set fire to chemistry will have medbay access stripped while recovering in cryo or being cloned.

Geneticists who give out powers without checking with myself or the RD will be syringe gunned with mutadone and then have their access removed, and possibly be brigged if they were abusing their own powers.

These are fair rules applying to common non-antag behaviors which I'm well within my IC rights as a head of staff to enforce (read: admins will side with me in escalation), will rarely seem to come out of nowhere to the subject of a demotion, and will far more often than not have the crew and security on my side.

The key in enforcing these things is to be consistent, give fair warning verbally if you think one of the rules is about to be broken ("viro get the fuck back in the lab and put a suit on"), and to never apologize or go back on them so people who work that department come to understand what's expected of them. Randomly beating someone into crit for not doing their job the way you think they should is not how anyone should be dealing with deliquency. Set fair rules, not arbitrary ones, and stick to them, and you'll very quickly see that people in the department will follow them.

If on the other hand they just fuck off roundstart and never show up again, make it known over command radio that you've got a wayward employee so other heads can keep an eye out, then get back to work.

Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:30 am
by Malkraz
The first part of PKP's post was good but players are gonna get into a lot of trouble if they follow the "just kill them if they run away lmao" part.
>If you choose to retaliate with violence, you in turn have opened yourself up to violence.
>You may instigate conflict with another player within reason (you can't completely destroy their department, kill them unprovoked, or otherwise take them out of the round for long periods of time)