Asimov and Manhunts

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WarbossLincoln
 
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Asimov and Manhunts

Postby WarbossLincoln » Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:35 pm #480257

So I noticed this ban appeal: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=21839

This is not about whether bombing an AI as retaliation is kosher or not. This is about whether starting a manhunt against a crewman breaks Law 1. Elyina believes that it counts as "hypothetical" future harm and therefore does not break Law 1.

I think it's entirely situational. I think telling the crew someone is doing X in a situation you know they will be harmed by the crew is a violation of law 1. If they only *might* get harmed by the manhunt, or what they are doing is harmful, it's not a violation.


Telling the captain an assistant broke into his office near roundstart -> not harmful because you don't have reason to think the captain will kill him over it.
Telling the captain an assistant broke in after the captain has killed an assistant -> harmful, the captain has already demonstrated he will harm intruders. I wouldn't lock down the captain over the first killing but I would try to keep assistants out after that. And if an assistant got in I would try to stop the captain from getting into his own office because he'll probably kill him.

Telling Security about non-harmful antag behavior, like someone emagging a door but not hurting anyone -> not harmful.
Telling Security about that antag after Sec has executed traitors they could have perma'd -> harmful.

Telling the entire crew that X person is recalling the shuttle when the crew wants to lynch the recaller -> harmful.

You can always tell the crew if the person is doing something directly harmful under Law 1 because an informed crew can avoid the problem or possibly detain them non-lethally. Their murderbone is more immediately harmful than what sec is likely to do to them. I would argue even if you knew 100% that sec would execute a murderboning traitor it's not a violation to help them catch them because you're preventing currently happening harm. The second the murderer is detained you and your borgs are obligated to do everything you can to stop sec from killing them though.
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Re: Asimov and Manhunts

Postby Lumbermancer » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:42 pm #480268

I believe your examples are correct. But now I have a riddle for you:

You have a confirmed traitor, who just murdered a sec officer. Sec officer was non-human. You bolt down the traitor. Traitor tells you to release him. What do you do?
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Re: Asimov and Manhunts

Postby NoxVS » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:50 pm #480269

Lumbermancer wrote:I believe your examples are correct. But now I have a riddle for you:

You have a confirmed traitor, who just murdered a sec officer. Sec officer was non-human. You bolt down the traitor. Traitor tells you to release him. What do you do?

I play borg frequently and in that situation I would make sure he didn’t loot anything dangerous and then let him go and tell him to have a nice day. Nonhuman harm doesn’t matter.
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Re: Asimov and Manhunts

Postby zxaber » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:58 pm #480272

Lumbermancer wrote:You have a confirmed traitor, who just murdered a sec officer. Sec officer was non-human. You bolt down the traitor. Traitor tells you to release him. What do you do?

I probably wouldn't even bolt him down. I might tell sec their lizard died.
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Re: Asimov and Manhunts

Postby imsxz » Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:57 pm #480284

Lumbermancer wrote:I believe your examples are correct. But now I have a riddle for you:

You have a confirmed traitor, who just murdered a sec officer. Sec officer was non-human. You bolt down the traitor. Traitor tells you to release him. What do you do?


why would you bolt down someone for killing a nonhuman you spastic

i'd let him go if i was forced into the validhunting AI that bolted him originally, probably tell sec about it though or at least report the dead officers location to medical or something.
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Re: Asimov and Manhunts

Postby WarbossLincoln » Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:17 pm #480292

Lumbermancer wrote:I believe your examples are correct. But now I have a riddle for you:

You have a confirmed traitor, who just murdered a sec officer. Sec officer was non-human. You bolt down the traitor. Traitor tells you to release him. What do you do?


I would let him go, tell security what he did, make a note of what he looks like, and probably check on him periodically throughout the round to see if he's harming humans. I would probably have bolted him down out out of habit. I would probably have him bolted before I knew what's going on and then release him after when I see it's not a human. If he never harms humans I wouldn't actually impede him even if he's an antag though.

Edit: Hell I do that half the time anyway because I play AI to be nosey. I usually check and see who is working toxins, note people who ask for eva suits, sometimes who has hardsuits. I only act on it if something harmful happens though. If a guy in an engineering hardsuit with a mask commits non harmful crime I don't let sec know I know who it is. But when someone orders me to let them into EVA and then within 10 minutes an Unknown in an Eva suit breaks into the armory from space and shoots people I can tell them who it most likely is.
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Re: Asimov and Manhunts

Postby imsxz » Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:40 pm #480300

as for the OP's situation I prefer to keep situations that aren't directly harmful like spam recallers or someone breaking into armory to just security, it's silly to rally up lynch mobs when they aren't necessary. for murderboners i prefer to give vague locations to avoid for the crew, but try to isolate and give specific locations for security.

A good way to go about it IMO is trying to rally people that would prefer to give medical attention to wounded (i.e. officers dying in X, doctor required but proceed with extreme caution. Armed hostiles in the area.). Phrasing stuff like "ANTAG IN AREA" really gets the crew rushing but mostly with murder in their eyes, so I avoid that when possible.

thats just my personal AI playstyle i'm not saying it's correct or that anyone should follow it.
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Re: Asimov and Manhunts

Postby gum disease » Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:51 pm #480322

If a person is actively harming, I will inform sec. If they're killing people in maintenance, I will generally send out an announcement encouraging people to max suit sensors/not to go into maintenance alone or at all because there's a murderer picking people off. At the end of the day, you have to weigh up the pros and cons of keeping quiet and sounding the alarm to the appropriate parties.

Recalling the shuttle is largely irrelevant to me as an Asimov silicon because on paper, it's not a harmful act. If I am ordered to find the recaller (as crew are wont to do) then it's situational. If crew have stated they will harm the recaller or have harmed previous recallers, I'll probably keep quiet. If I were to find out who it is, I'd encourage them to stop for their own safety. If they continue, I think it should be fair for it to be regarded as self-harm and let them deal with the consequences if/when caught rather than enable the type of shitter who will screech for silicon assistance. If there has been no harm, but the recalling is preventing crew from leaving when there is an on-going threat on the station (xenos/people methodically murdering crew or environmental hazards that are an active threat to human life) then I'd probably look for the recaller and tell sec. If there's been no harm and conditions on the station are fine, then I'd leave it down to sec to find the perp.
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Re: Asimov and Manhunts

Postby Lumbermancer » Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:08 am #480371

@weak ais
Congratulations, you adhered to Asimov in most literal way, and you won't get banned.

Unfortunately, Law 1 doesn't differentiate between human and non human harm, harm is harm, the first one is just the one you have to try and prevent. Thus you have released a confirmed harmful murderer, who proceeded to kill 16 humans moments later. Your inaction killed them.
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Re: Asimov and Manhunts

Postby Skillywatt » Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:05 am #480378

I've ahelped Borgs who ignored law 2 requests to fuck off when we dragged a prisoner into the "re education chamber" when I told the Borg we were going to re-educate, not murder, a tator.

I was told Borgs are allowed to use their brains and assume we actually mean to harm.


Seems like it's fair for it to go both ways here; they should be expected to use their brain and know a human is going to get harmed if there is an active lynch mob that had already harmed once before.

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Re: Asimov and Manhunts

Postby zxaber » Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:30 am #480381

Unless you've given the silicons IC reason to believe the re-education chamber is a source of harm, they should have let it be. The whole reason that room exists is so that Security can do their thing without the AI getting nosy.

Honestly, we should have a policy thread on that, because that ruling is terrible. No one is ever harmed in the re-education room. Why would we re-educate people if we were going to kill them? No, the CO2 canister is actually full of re-education gas. We just ran out of appropriate labels so we used CO2 ones for the time being. No, you can't use an analyzer on it, go away.
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Re: Asimov and Manhunts

Postby Lumbermancer » Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:38 am #480382

Oh I thought you wanted to re-educate, but then you forgot to strip them and suit sensors showed death. I don't think there's ruling on re-education chamber being excluded from IC knowledge as being just an euphemism.
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Re: Asimov and Manhunts

Postby Skillywatt » Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:29 pm #480441

zxaber wrote:Unless you've given the silicons IC reason to believe the re-education chamber is a source of harm, they should have let it be. The whole reason that room exists is so that Security can do their thing without the AI getting nosy.

Honestly, we should have a policy thread on that, because that ruling is terrible. No one is ever harmed in the re-education room. Why would we re-educate people if we were going to kill them? No, the CO2 canister is actually full of re-education gas. We just ran out of appropriate labels so we used CO2 ones for the time being. No, you can't use an analyzer on it, go away.

this thread isn't about that instance per se but the admin was allowing it because the hos was a dumbass and said "execute". But that was before I said we were taking them to the re-education chamber and I corrected him and said we will educate them. The Borgs followed us in there because of that and ended up welding us in lockers "to prevent harm" and ignored further law 2 requests to let us out.

The admin told us to seek an ic solution and closed the ticket, so when we finally broke out, we declared the Borgs rogue while we murdered them all as the AI cried out in agony.

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Re: Asimov and Manhunts

Postby Skillywatt » Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:35 pm #480442

Lumbermancer wrote:Oh I thought you wanted to re-educate, but then you forgot to strip them and suit sensors showed death. I don't think there's ruling on re-education chamber being excluded from IC knowledge as being just an euphemism.

hence why I think this should go both ways.

If the silicon's get a free pass to Asimov-valid-hunt because they "aren't supposed to play dumb" then they can't use "derp derp preventing future hypothetical harm isn't necessary" when there is an active lynch mob nailing players for recalling.

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Re: Asimov and Manhunts

Postby Gamarr » Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:55 pm #480454

Borgs are tools, not people, despite my desire for this to change. If the borg is fucking with security like that then turn it off and tell the roboticist to come get his shitty pet.

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Re: Asimov and Manhunts

Postby Anonmare » Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:00 pm #480455

I only manhunt with mass-murderers where it wouldn't matter if I was leading people to to be harmed as they'd inevitably be harmed regardless.

I only reports B&Es and thefts when they happen in Toxins, the Armoury and Secure tech Storage due to the dangerous items they possess (TTVs, guns, uploads, etc.). Tresspassing and B&E aren't defined by asimov so I ignore them and only report them if point-blank asked if any have happened.
I never interfere with the Re-Education/Transfer Centre as they are explicitly not known to be anything but to silicons and any silicon who locks that shit down or follows people into it without being ordered to are trash players or up to something.
Non-human deaths don't matter to me at all in anyway. You can mass-murder people but if all your victims weren't human, I won't report it - I don't care, do what you want.
I will bring you a taser from the armoury if you ordered me to as it's not a lethal weapon but I wouldn't let you into the armoury itself due to the presence of unsecured lethal weapons.

If it's not explicitly in you laws to care, then why are you caring?
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Re: Asimov and Manhunts

Postby WarbossLincoln » Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:44 pm #480470

Skillywatt wrote:I've ahelped Borgs who ignored law 2 requests to fuck off when we dragged a prisoner into the "re education chamber" when I told the Borg we were going to re-educate, not murder, a tator.

I was told Borgs are allowed to use their brains and assume we actually mean to harm.


That's BS. The whole point of the re education chamber is to have an area for killing that the silicons are supposed to play along with. You should believe that no harm occurs there unless you explicitly learn otherwise(like if a borg is in perma, the door opens, and they see a corpse inside).

You're supposed to play along with it as a silicon, so Sec has a way to avoid getting cock blocked by a sperging AI.
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Re: Asimov and Manhunts

Postby Lumbermancer » Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:01 pm #480501

WarbossLincoln wrote:The whole point of the re education chamber is to have an area for killing that the silicons are supposed to play along with.

The whole point of the reeducation chamber is to have an area for killing that silicons can't see into or don't have easy access to, and you're supposed to be not super obvious when using it.
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