Law 2 Commands and Deconstruction

Locked
ATHATH
In Game PermaBanned
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:41 am
Byond Username: ATHATH

Law 2 Commands and Deconstruction

Post by ATHATH » #480742

Last round, I, a lizard roboticist, was pursued by a borg who had been law 2'd by a human traitor to kill me. I flashed them, deconstructed them, and then put them in a new (unsync'd, so they were on Asimov) shell. After a few moments of hesitation, they resumed trying to kill me and spaced me, presumably because they were still following that law 2 command.

I thought that borgs didn't have to follow any law 2 commands that were given to them before they were borged; does that ruling also apply once they've been deconstructed and put in a new borg shell?
Skillywatt
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:29 pm
Byond Username: Tiguar

Re: Law 2 Commands and Deconstruction

Post by Skillywatt » #480775

Did you decon them all the way down to an mmi and put the mmi in a new Borg?

I think the flavor text says you have no memory of anything prior to being borged when that happens but I could be mistaken
User avatar
Anuv
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:34 pm
Byond Username: Anuv

Re: Law 2 Commands and Deconstruction

Post by Anuv » #480777

Skillywatt wrote: I think the flavor text says you have no memory of anything prior to being borged when that happens but I could be mistaken
Pretty sure that's only when you jump into a posi as a ghost. MMIs retain all knowledge, as it's still your brain.
ATHATH
In Game PermaBanned
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:41 am
Byond Username: ATHATH

Re: Law 2 Commands and Deconstruction

Post by ATHATH » #480803

Yeah, I brought them all the way down to being an MMI.

And MMI'd borgs do keep their memories of their previous lives- which is what lets borging someone so you can law 2 them into telling you their uplink code work (they even keep their notes tab and objectives, IIRC).
User avatar
Dax Dupont
In-Game Admin
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:07 pm
Byond Username: DaxYeen
Github Username: DaxDupont
Location: Belgium

Re: Law 2 Commands and Deconstruction

Post by Dax Dupont » #480821

I'd like to think that it clears previous commands just like law 2 orders before laws getting changed and then getting reasimov'd. That's how I see it.

Though I'd argue that under escalation, you killed and "cloned" him and he can take revenge for getting killed.
User avatar
gum disease
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:14 pm
Byond Username: GUM DISEASE
Location: England

Re: Law 2 Commands and Deconstruction

Post by gum disease » #480834

Yeah, clarification on this would be good. Personally, if I was deconned and put back together, I would've refrained from killing you because I'd regard the previous order as null and void.

Honestly, non-human or no, it seems like a dick move to space you when you took the time to keep the borg player in the round.
Image no aim, smooth brain, i'm a borg main.
ATHATH
In Game PermaBanned
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:41 am
Byond Username: ATHATH

Re: Law 2 Commands and Deconstruction

Post by ATHATH » #480878

gum disease wrote:Honestly, non-human or no, it seems like a dick move to space you when you took the time to keep the borg player in the round.
To be fair, after drifting in space (I had managed to remove their battery before dying) a bit with my corpse and eventually reaching a space ruin, they did bring my corpse back with them to the station.

... Then they put it in the morgue, noticed and commented on the fact that the light of the morgue tray that I was in was green, and decided to not to bother to clone me (a doctor had to do it). When I later confronted them about it, they replied that it was nothing personal and that they were just following their law 2 orders. I'm still somewhat uncertain about whether or not they believed that they were still under a law 2 compulsion to kill (but not clone) me. Perhaps you could ask them? IIRC, their borg name was [two words] 5 (Artificial Machine 5? I'm not quite sure that I remembered that correctly); is there a way to find out what their OOC name is based on that information?
User avatar
Mickyan
Github User
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:59 pm
Byond Username: Mickyan
Github Username: Mickyan

Re: Law 2 Commands and Deconstruction

Post by Mickyan » #481018

Given that MMIs have no laws it only makes sense that being put in a new shell would be treated the same as a law change/reset, hence all previous commands being void
ImageI play on Manuel as Swanni, the brain-damaged moth.
Be nice to each other.
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
User avatar
PKPenguin321
Site Admin
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:02 pm
Byond Username: PKPenguin321
Github Username: PKPenguin321
Location: U S A, U S A, U S A

Re: Law 2 Commands and Deconstruction

Post by PKPenguin321 » #481022

If you're not protected by law 1 and you deconstruct a borg I can see them getting revenge for that of their own volition
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
Spoiler:
Image
Skillywatt
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:29 pm
Byond Username: Tiguar

Re: Law 2 Commands and Deconstruction

Post by Skillywatt » #481026

PKPenguin321 wrote:If you're not protected by law 1 and you deconstruct a borg I can see them getting revenge for that of their own volition
in a vacuum yeah but this is kind of a grey area since the borg was ordered to kill the guy- I dont think "revenge" for defending yourself is valid in that scenario.

this definitely needs a ruling though because I definitely see a ban appeal in the future where someone orders a borg to kill a non-human, the non-human defends themselves, then spaces/hides the mmi brain/whatever to remove the borg from the round because they effectively have no option (assuming laws carry over from being deconstructed), and the person who defended themselves nets a dumb ban for "round removal"
User avatar
WarbossLincoln
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:14 pm
Byond Username: WarbossLincoln

Re: Law 2 Commands and Deconstruction

Post by WarbossLincoln » #481218

If a borg is sent to kill you then you should be free to kill them and remove them from the round. Cause most borgs that kill a non human are going to space the body too.

As far as whether a borg retains its orders if it goes from Asimov borg -> brain -> Asimov borg again, that's iffy.

Both sides have a valid argument.

1: You keep the order because it's your brain and you retain all the memories.
2: You lose the order because when you became a brain you lost your laws which invalidated the orders.

I would lean toward 2 just for the sake of simplicity. Situations like OP's come up where they try to keep the borg in the round and die because of it. Without a ruling Autists are always going to take either decision made by a borg to scream "AI ROG KILL HE" when a borg forgets to keep doing orders given before he died, spent 5 minutes as an mmi, and got rebuilt.
--Crocodillo

Image
User avatar
lmwevil
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:09 pm
Byond Username: Lmwevil

Re: Law 2 Commands and Deconstruction

Post by lmwevil » #481273

i'd see if you got killed and reconstructed as being rebooted with prior orders void personally
User avatar
Hulkamania
In-Game Game Master
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:42 pm
Byond Username: Hulkamania

Re: Law 2 Commands and Deconstruction

Post by Hulkamania » #481291

I lean on the side of borgs keeping their previous orders if you just put the brain back into a borg body.

Borgs who were traitors in life still stay as traitors while borged, they just can't act outside their lawset to do their traitorous activities. This means they still have their previous memories and allegiences, thus would apply to previous orders given to them.
User avatar
Lazengann
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:26 pm
Byond Username: Lazengann

Re: Law 2 Commands and Deconstruction

Post by Lazengann » #481308

I don't think the silicon pages in the rules need more bloat for these incredibly specific edge cases
User avatar
terranaut
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:43 pm
Byond Username: Terranaut

Re: Law 2 Commands and Deconstruction

Post by terranaut » #481316

I don't think that this is an incredibly specific edge case nor would it be difficult or bloat to add (that said, a rewrite of the silicon page would probably not be a bad idea, just in general).
Personally I'd go with the second option presented in the thread, that being a brain and becoming 'lawless' would release you from any standing orders.
[🅲 1] [🆄 1] [🅼 1]

Image
User avatar
Not-Dorsidarf
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:14 pm
Byond Username: Dorsidwarf
Location: We're all going on an, admin holiday

Re: Law 2 Commands and Deconstruction

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #481411

I think adding one line of flavourtext to borg startup in the code would de-ambiguous it nicely.

"Initialising... Prior commands wiped... Laws active.... Cyborg online"
Image
Image
kieth4 wrote: infrequently shitting yourself is fine imo
There is a lot of very bizarre nonsense being talked on this forum. I shall now remain silent and logoff until my points are vindicated.
Player who complainted over being killed for looting cap office wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am Hey there, I'm Virescent, the super evil person who made the stupid appeal and didn't think it through enough. Just came here to say: screech, retards. Screech and writhe like the worms you are. Your pathetic little cries will keep echoing around for a while before quietting down. There is one great outcome from this: I rised up the blood pressure of some of you shitheads and lowered your lifespan. I'm honestly tempted to do this more often just to see you screech and writhe more, but that wouldn't be cool of me. So come on haters, show me some more of your high blood pressure please. 🖕🖕🖕
Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot]