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Low pop murderboning

Ask and discuss policy about game conduct and rules.

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MortoSasye
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Low pop murderboning

Postby MortoSasye » Wed May 29, 2019 2:00 pm #495930

When should it be allowed and when should it not? Should it be solved by IC means or be punished by us admins due to rule 1?

I would like an answer to the above since not many people are aware that low pop murderboning is frowned upon. Please use this thread to discuss the topic as well as the above questions too!
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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby Shadowflame909 » Wed May 29, 2019 2:05 pm #495931

Low-Pop murderboning had attempted to be dealt with via the code. Since you cannot buy holo-parasites, the syndicate revolver, a dual e-sword or any of the "Time to kill 1/3rd of the crew easy" gear.

People who want the crew to go sideways will always find a way.

Also, Do not solve it by IC Means. That's what they want. A reward is the ERT to come try and kill them, so they can then loot that ERT as well.
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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby imsxz » Wed May 29, 2019 2:50 pm #495935

there's not an issue with handling it ICly in my opinion, if the ERT can't kill them then just call the shuttle or something or just call it to start. Lowpop antags cant get adrenals among other staple murderbone stuff and tend to be much easier to deal with if the person dealing with them is aware of the threat, and (assuming we're on the same definition of lowpop) only traitors can spawn anyways.Wiz can spawn too at lower pops but remarkably I don't have any memories of a lowpop wiz being worse than a lowpop traitor.
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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby donutstation » Wed May 29, 2019 3:37 pm #495941

1. you cant define lowpop, because number of players changes during the round and not even AI can tell how many are currently active and ive seen people crying about lowpop murderbone on 40 pop, so a policy of "dont do x when theres less than y players" would be dumb and "dont do x when its lowpop" is even more dumb
2. you cant define murderboning because even a lowpop station is full of validhunting greyshit running into antag with obvious intent, roboticists making a durand, cargonians ordering armory, scientists making bombs and other people who by acting this way ask the antag man to get super murdered so you can't force people to explain themselves after each kill and every attempt of doing that on other servers is one of the reasons why these servers are considered shit

code solutions are probably best here

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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby confused rock » Wed May 29, 2019 3:41 pm #495942

I strongly agree with code solutions, as in nerfing traitors as a whole. Regardless of population, traitors shouldn’t be able to buy things like his grace, an item designed to end in either the death of the traitor, 20 people, or both.
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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby BeeSting12 » Wed May 29, 2019 4:00 pm #495944

hey folks welcome to the 20th policy discussion about this.

I wouldn't deal with it in an IC manner satisfying for the murderboner because that's what they want. A shuttle call set to a shorter time is a good way to deal with it ICly. Not satisfying for the murderboner and if he recalls then that gives you an excuse to spawn a hundred spiders on him or something.

I also don't feel like there should be a hard number where murderboning is/isn't allowed because then we'd get rules lawyers saying, "well, there were 31 players on the server and the lowpop threshold is 30 so I didn't break any rules."

It should be dealt with by warning the guy, giving him a three month expiration note, and leaving it at that. Three months is long enough to see that he changed, and I wouldn't even consider it a punishment since the note expires.
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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby Eskjjlj » Wed May 29, 2019 4:23 pm #495945

MortoSasye wrote:Should it [..] be punished by us admins due to rule 1?


BeeSting12 wrote:It should be dealt with by warning the guy, giving him a three month expiration note, and leaving it at that. Three months is long enough to see that he changed, and I wouldn't even consider it a punishment since the note expires.


Punishing antags for killing people is not possible considering rule 4 exists. Lone antagonists can do whatever they want, even if what they want to do is to be a dick.

Start giving OOC punishment when an antagonist makes people upset and you will transform TG into Paradise or Yogstation.

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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby cedarbridge » Wed May 29, 2019 4:28 pm #495947

MortoSasye wrote:be punished by us admins due to rule 1?

These bans have happened in the past and I don't know of any that stuck past a short while.

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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby imsxz » Wed May 29, 2019 4:44 pm #495949

pretty sure the only person thats gotten banned for murderboning was asher clarke and he did more than just murderbone on lowpop
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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby Xeroxemnas » Wed May 29, 2019 4:47 pm #495950

What else did Asser do again. I remember him being the scourge of sybil and an absolute bell-end.

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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby NoxVS » Wed May 29, 2019 4:56 pm #495952

Define lowpop and define murderboning for me before we go any further. Precise definitions with exact numbers and a clear line drawn where it shifts to and from lowpop and to and from murderboning. If you can't do this then how can you expect players to? This is stupid and should be upheld with code or by throwing ERTs at them or forcing the round to end if they get out of hand.
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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby skoglol » Wed May 29, 2019 5:01 pm #495953

What else are you going to do when the round is 2.5 hours long, space is looted, lavaland is empty and they keep spam recalling? At some point someone is going to have to do something antagonistic, or its going to continue being a snoozefest for another few hours. Murderboning as a means toward the end goal of ending the round shouldn't be frowned upon imo. Sure, if you spam recall shuttle to play single player 13 its another story.


I think it is also worth discussing how restart votes are used to "cuck antags" during lowpop. As far as I understand, restart votes aren't supposed to be used as an I ded measure, but rather in cases where the round cant end for some reason or other. I have seen votes almost go through (1-2 votes away) when shuttle is non-recallable and the round already has a time limit.

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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Wed May 29, 2019 5:11 pm #495955

no

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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby Stickymayhem » Wed May 29, 2019 5:49 pm #495959

Solve it IC.

I don't understand why people are spitefully suggesting that dealing with it IC is a reward and therefore shouldn't be encouraged. Of course it's a reward, they're begging for a challenge and admins can give them one.

I've never had more people pissed off about a murderbone after some kind of IC intervention. Keep in mind that an ERT or whatever other intervention you do is going to bring back ghosts for a chance to kill the cunt. It's catharsis for them too.

Stop filing the edges off the game or you'll get a mediocre mess of a ruleset that discourages the most fun aspects of both roleplaying and powergaming.
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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby teepeepee » Wed May 29, 2019 6:17 pm #495961

BeeSting12 wrote:I also don't feel like there should be a hard number where murderboning is/isn't allowed because then we'd get rules lawyers saying, "well, there were 31 players on the server and the lowpop threshold is 30 so I didn't break any rules."

it's not retarded because there would be "rules lawyering", it's retarded because admins are shitheads that will bend the meaning of any such rule to include " well it was 31 so it still counts"
just remove rule 4 if you have an issue with this, why is there a rule that contradicts your plan for the game so much but you refuse to change it?
you're just tricking people telling them they can do whatever as antag except when they are "murderboning" on "lowpop"
what happens with people that play on a low activity timezone? is playing the game like they would in highpop forbidden for them? is this another retarded non-issue only admins and crybaby players see?

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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Wed May 29, 2019 6:32 pm #495963

Frowned upon but not actionable.

It's only obnoxious when you see it done 20 minutes into the round since it makes any effort put towards doing late game activities feel pointless.

I myself do it often to end rounds that have gone on for an hour because rampaging in high tier late game stuff or loosing uncommon engines (singulo, tesla) is exciting and fun,and players have had their time to have their round by that point.

Just admin call the shuttle and send an ert if the antag won't
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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby cedarbridge » Wed May 29, 2019 7:57 pm #495966

Stickymayhem wrote:roleplaying

Is that what this thread is about?

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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby Karp » Wed May 29, 2019 8:40 pm #495968

this thread is stupid and is gonna go nowhere

we've had plenty of people intentionally roll antagonist, attempt to ebow+esword and cremate every single nonantagonist they could find while spam shuttle recalling and then imemdiately ghosting when stunned or killed and then leaving the server

they've always ghosted/suicided while being a nonantag as well. There are a fuckload of people who intentionally roll lowpop antagonist so they can kill people when they dont fight back who suicide/ghost when they cant. Everyone who argues "lol its fine" has never actually played during the lower population counts to see how fucking lame it is and everyone who wants to police it has to accept the fact that it's 100% arbitrary and up to admin discretion at the end of the day as no hard rule would ever work

and before pissing and shitting your pants over an admin saying lowpop antag murderbone is bad, the only time I care about antag murderbone is when someone goes out of their way to do it and destroys/spaces bodies on lowpop to try to ruin the round as quickly as possible or when they spam recall to waste time and piss as many people as possible off. Watching server pop counts drop by 10-30 players during those periods because of a single shithead murderboning is lame and I will ban you if your play as an antag is to grief as hard as possible when people can't retaliate and to leave the server when caught/not an antag

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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby Eskjjlj » Wed May 29, 2019 8:47 pm #495970

Karp wrote:Watching server pop counts drop by 10-30 players during those periods because of a single shithead murderboning is lame and I will ban you if your play as an antag is to grief as hard as possible when people can't retaliate and to leave the server when caught/not an antag


Look at this admin making up rules. Reminds me of something I wrote earlier.

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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby Xeroxemnas » Wed May 29, 2019 8:48 pm #495971

Eskjjlj wrote:Look at this admin making up rules. Reminds me of something I wrote earlier.


>making up rules.

I mean if you intentionally go out of your way to act in bad faith and roundstart suicide as nonantag every fucking round regardless of whatever job slots you waste you're a massive faggot and deserve a rule zero.

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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby Eskjjlj » Wed May 29, 2019 8:56 pm #495973

Banning for antag rolling seems to be an accepted policy but cremating everyone and recalling the shuttle as antagonist during low pop is not against the rules. See rule 4.

Do not mix up antag rolling and murderboning.

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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby teepeepee » Wed May 29, 2019 8:56 pm #495975

Xeroxemnas wrote:
Eskjjlj wrote:Look at this admin making up rules. Reminds me of something I wrote earlier.


>making up rules.

I mean if you intentionally go out of your way to act in bad faith and roundstart suicide as nonantag every fucking round regardless of whatever job slots you waste you're a massive faggot and deserve a rule zero.

it's pretty bad faith to talk about antag rolling when the thread is about murderboning while being antag and his comment pointed at an admin ignoring rule 4, practice what you preach buddy

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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby Karp » Wed May 29, 2019 8:58 pm #495976

there are a train of people who do this eskjjlj and trust me none of them have been punished until the 20th-30th time they've done this where they suicide as a nonantag and attempt to depopulate the station by permanently removing people and spam recall the shuttle during lowpop when there are like 30 crewmembers, and while this moreso is something that occured in the past I still think its cancer. If your mission is to depopulate a server when the server is at its lowest player count and you refuse to do anything else including playing the game normally you do not contribute anything and are a parasite

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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby Karp » Wed May 29, 2019 9:00 pm #495977

teepeepee wrote:
Xeroxemnas wrote:
Eskjjlj wrote:Look at this admin making up rules. Reminds me of something I wrote earlier.


>making up rules.

I mean if you intentionally go out of your way to act in bad faith and roundstart suicide as nonantag every fucking round regardless of whatever job slots you waste you're a massive faggot and deserve a rule zero.

it's pretty bad faith to talk about antag rolling when the thread is about murderboning while being antag and his comment pointed at an admin ignoring rule 4, practice what you preach buddy


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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby Eskjjlj » Wed May 29, 2019 9:00 pm #495978

Karp wrote:there are a train of people who do this eskjjlj and trust me none of them have been punished until the 20th-30th time they've done this where they suicide as a nonantag and attempt to depopulate the station by permanently removing people and spam recall the shuttle during lowpop when there are like 30 crewmembers, and while this moreso is something that occured in the past I still think its cancer. If your mission is to depopulate a server when the server is at its lowest player count and you refuse to do anything else including playing the game normally you do not contribute anything and are a parasite


In that case get a headmin to answer to this post viewtopic.php?f=33&t=22704 and ban the offender for antag rolling. Not for depopulating the station.

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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby Karp » Wed May 29, 2019 9:01 pm #495979

teepeepee wrote:
BeeSting12 wrote:I also don't feel like there should be a hard number where murderboning is/isn't allowed because then we'd get rules lawyers saying, "well, there were 31 players on the server and the lowpop threshold is 30 so I didn't break any rules."

it's not retarded because there would be "rules lawyering", it's retarded because admins are shitheads that will bend the meaning of any such rule to include " well it was 31 so it still counts"
just remove rule 4 if you have an issue with this, why is there a rule that contradicts your plan for the game so much but you refuse to change it?
you're just tricking people telling them they can do whatever as antag except when they are "murderboning" on "lowpop"
what happens with people that play on a low activity timezone? is playing the game like they would in highpop forbidden for them? is this another retarded non-issue only admins and crybaby players see?


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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby Karp » Wed May 29, 2019 9:09 pm #495981

Eskjjlj wrote:
Karp wrote:there are a train of people who do this eskjjlj and trust me none of them have been punished until the 20th-30th time they've done this where they suicide as a nonantag and attempt to depopulate the station by permanently removing people and spam recall the shuttle during lowpop when there are like 30 crewmembers, and while this moreso is something that occured in the past I still think its cancer. If your mission is to depopulate a server when the server is at its lowest player count and you refuse to do anything else including playing the game normally you do not contribute anything and are a parasite


In that case get a headmin to answer to this post viewtopic.php?f=33&t=22704 and ban the offender for antag rolling. Not for depopulating the station.



its a series of things and if i see people who antag roll they'll be punished for it accordingly, for me at least it usually starts with warnings for antag rolling but if all that person does is making a bad faith effort to play the game it becomes blatantly obvious real quickly and obnoxious just as quickly. I don't mind lowpop murderbone if people actually play the game as a nonantag and they don't go out of their way to spam recall+destroy every body to permanently fuck the round as hard as they possibly can, but if someone plays the game to exclusively do that and nothing else i will personally permaban them for being a worthless parasitic shithead

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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby cedarbridge » Wed May 29, 2019 9:25 pm #495985

Eskjjlj wrote:
Karp wrote:Watching server pop counts drop by 10-30 players during those periods because of a single shithead murderboning is lame and I will ban you if your play as an antag is to grief as hard as possible when people can't retaliate and to leave the server when caught/not an antag


Look at this admin making up rules. Reminds me of something I wrote earlier.

Rule 4 does not make you immune to Rule 0. Hope that helps.

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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby Malkraz » Wed May 29, 2019 11:44 pm #496001

Punishing antags for being antags just because you don't like the way they did it is fucking retarded. Just code it to automatically spawn an ERT when x% of the station is dead after y minutes (which I've been suggesting for months) and you've solved your autistic problem.
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Franklin Khan says, " Well I know who I'm metagrudging from now on "
Istoprocent: You and Rock Steele definitely metabuddies, proving metacomms will take time but eventually people will figure it out.
Declan Cooper asks, " does rock steel have autism? "
Erik489: Malkraz, I gotta ask, and please be honest. Do you metacomm with Rock Steel?
Lumbermancer: also rock should be killed every round
Willy Willee says, " And he kept spam-tabling me, while his metafriend came over "
ATHATH: Rock Steel, I fucking hate you with a passion. I was alive on the station for less than a minute, you absolute cunt you CREMATING ASSHOLE I GENUINELY *HATE* YOU
Adam Karlsson says, " i just want rock " Shaun McFall says, " you know you'll get harshly punished for this right " Adam Karlsson says, " oh i know "
Aidan Duncan says, " Once again, Rock Steel is the fucking worst person on the station "
Twaticus: malk i hate you why do you ruin everything
Alijah Petrov says, " Actually then, im just gonna start robusting rock steel every time i see him "
Adolph Weinstein says, " I like how we have a wizard onboard, and the only person causing shit is Rock "
[Common] Most Likely Malfunction states, " BORG RETURN TO THE CLONEER AND ISPOSE OF ROCK STEELS BODY. "
Dee Dubya: the fact that Rock Steel hasn't been permabanned is proof enough of how low RP /tg/station really is
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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby cedarbridge » Wed May 29, 2019 11:48 pm #496003

Malkraz wrote:Punishing antags for being antags just because you don't like the way they did it is fucking retarded. Just code it to automatically spawn an ERT when x% of the station is dead after y minutes (which I've been suggesting for months) and you've solved your autistic problem.

"Slowly, silently, and methodically ensure the server population dies to zero and you get a bonus round" is pants-on-head.

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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby Malkraz » Thu May 30, 2019 12:28 am #496011

Imagine calling taking IC measures to end a round "a bonus round" as if the guy should be punished for playing the game
Maybe the ERT should be calling the shuttle and not losing to a fucking lowpop TC traitor
Alternatively you could call in the ERT AND auto-call the shuttle under the same circumstances. I see zero reason why the player should be punished under this system and why any of the retards who couldn't fight 1 guy would leave the server other than assblasting.
Last edited by Malkraz on Thu May 30, 2019 12:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Franklin Khan says, " Well I know who I'm metagrudging from now on "
Istoprocent: You and Rock Steele definitely metabuddies, proving metacomms will take time but eventually people will figure it out.
Declan Cooper asks, " does rock steel have autism? "
Erik489: Malkraz, I gotta ask, and please be honest. Do you metacomm with Rock Steel?
Lumbermancer: also rock should be killed every round
Willy Willee says, " And he kept spam-tabling me, while his metafriend came over "
ATHATH: Rock Steel, I fucking hate you with a passion. I was alive on the station for less than a minute, you absolute cunt you CREMATING ASSHOLE I GENUINELY *HATE* YOU
Adam Karlsson says, " i just want rock " Shaun McFall says, " you know you'll get harshly punished for this right " Adam Karlsson says, " oh i know "
Aidan Duncan says, " Once again, Rock Steel is the fucking worst person on the station "
Twaticus: malk i hate you why do you ruin everything
Alijah Petrov says, " Actually then, im just gonna start robusting rock steel every time i see him "
Adolph Weinstein says, " I like how we have a wizard onboard, and the only person causing shit is Rock "
[Common] Most Likely Malfunction states, " BORG RETURN TO THE CLONEER AND ISPOSE OF ROCK STEELS BODY. "
Dee Dubya: the fact that Rock Steel hasn't been permabanned is proof enough of how low RP /tg/station really is
hanna banana: Rock Steel pushes me over in game and steals my insuls i get so mad i start screaming

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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby Karp » Thu May 30, 2019 12:28 am #496012

Malkraz wrote:Punishing antags for being antags just because you don't like the way they did it is fucking retarded. Just code it to automatically spawn an ERT when x% of the station is dead after y minutes (which I've been suggesting for months) and you've solved your autistic problem.


I dont think you understand because this hasn't really happened since you've started playing, it's been relatively extinct nowadays

there are a number of players who intentionally roll antagonist on lowpop to murderbone on lowpop who disconnect/quit out when they don't roll it, they go to extremes to permanently remove people with the cheesiest combos like ebow+esword or dual eswords when leg delimbs stunned for 4 seconds and delimbing the leg on a single hit was a 30~% chance iirc

this is from a series of events in 2016-17 and I hope the admins don't take people antag murderboning as the nono and more the behaviour of intentionally trying to murderbone and body destroy people, spam recalling, and refusing to actually play the game normally in any way on lowpop as the lame as fuck thing and the issue. This used to actually clear out the server on lowpop by a significant enough amount to potentially kill the server because watching 1 guy spam recall and hunt down the last 2 hidden players alive out of ~20pop for 30+ minutes is boring as fuck for everyone
Last edited by Karp on Thu May 30, 2019 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby Malkraz » Thu May 30, 2019 12:32 am #496013

I'm not talking about the antag rolling, and the shit you mentioned is solved with an ERT and shuttle auto-call. A few players are brought back into the game significantly better equipped than the stinker, and the round has a hard time limit set on it if you make it some "Centcomm has blah blah blah no recalling" gimmick. There's 0 reason to punish when you can instead just tailor the game to resolve the situation on its own.
This is the kind of shit regular game developers have to find solutions to all the time and it annoys me when this lazy "just tell them not to lmfao" is always brought up.
Image
Franklin Khan says, " Well I know who I'm metagrudging from now on "
Istoprocent: You and Rock Steele definitely metabuddies, proving metacomms will take time but eventually people will figure it out.
Declan Cooper asks, " does rock steel have autism? "
Erik489: Malkraz, I gotta ask, and please be honest. Do you metacomm with Rock Steel?
Lumbermancer: also rock should be killed every round
Willy Willee says, " And he kept spam-tabling me, while his metafriend came over "
ATHATH: Rock Steel, I fucking hate you with a passion. I was alive on the station for less than a minute, you absolute cunt you CREMATING ASSHOLE I GENUINELY *HATE* YOU
Adam Karlsson says, " i just want rock " Shaun McFall says, " you know you'll get harshly punished for this right " Adam Karlsson says, " oh i know "
Aidan Duncan says, " Once again, Rock Steel is the fucking worst person on the station "
Twaticus: malk i hate you why do you ruin everything
Alijah Petrov says, " Actually then, im just gonna start robusting rock steel every time i see him "
Adolph Weinstein says, " I like how we have a wizard onboard, and the only person causing shit is Rock "
[Common] Most Likely Malfunction states, " BORG RETURN TO THE CLONEER AND ISPOSE OF ROCK STEELS BODY. "
Dee Dubya: the fact that Rock Steel hasn't been permabanned is proof enough of how low RP /tg/station really is
hanna banana: Rock Steel pushes me over in game and steals my insuls i get so mad i start screaming

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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby wesoda25 » Thu May 30, 2019 1:19 am #496021

Antags should never ever ever be punished OOCly for actions they do as an antag, provided it doesn't cross rules such as 8. IC solutions FTW. As someone once said, we have 3 other servers and tons of ghosts roles.

(dont mistake my opinion for me liking lowpop murderbone, its cancerous and if you do it you're cancerous, however you should absolutely be allowed to do it)
Spoiler:
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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby cedarbridge » Thu May 30, 2019 2:29 am #496033

Antag status is not and should not ever be treated as sacred.

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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby teepeepee » Thu May 30, 2019 2:46 am #496036

Karp wrote:
teepeepee wrote:
BeeSting12 wrote:I also don't feel like there should be a hard number where murderboning is/isn't allowed because then we'd get rules lawyers saying, "well, there were 31 players on the server and the lowpop threshold is 30 so I didn't break any rules."

it's not retarded because there would be "rules lawyering", it's retarded because admins are shitheads that will bend the meaning of any such rule to include " well it was 31 so it still counts"
just remove rule 4 if you have an issue with this, why is there a rule that contradicts your plan for the game so much but you refuse to change it?
you're just tricking people telling them they can do whatever as antag except when they are "murderboning" on "lowpop"
what happens with people that play on a low activity timezone? is playing the game like they would in highpop forbidden for them? is this another retarded non-issue only admins and crybaby players see?


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post all the funny images you want but don't derail the thread please, tardmin

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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby Skillywatt » Thu May 30, 2019 4:06 am #496046

MortoSasye wrote: low pop murderboning is frowned upon.


imo things that are "frowned upon" but not explicitly against the rules should be:

1. discouraged with code

2. meddled with by online admins

3. repeat, egregious offenses met with note and rule 0 bans

in that order.

#1 is already kinda done with the more murdery traitor items unavailable in lower pop and the fact most people oocly know the round type on low pop. could probably further nerf if need be but thats not a policy discussion. maybe even adding objectives like "80% of the crew must escape alive to maintain secrecy" when pop is low

#2 I imagine should go similarly to someone constantly acting like a tool (spamming chat with "I'm gonna say it, I'm gonna say the 'n' word" or "helpies" bullshit) and getting drop-podded or brain damaged or something. perhaps give a murderboner-er clown hands so they cut their own legs off and need to be more creative.

#3 if they really go out of their way to murderbone every low pop round to the point you notice it (gee, everytime robusts-r-us gets traitor, 80% of the crew dies), leave a hidden note and give them a talking to if need be. not everything is explicitly against the rules but I've been bwoinked asking to take it easy on the gulaging greytiders in the past and I think that's reasonable.

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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby Grazyn » Thu May 30, 2019 10:07 am #496059

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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby Karp » Thu May 30, 2019 10:59 am #496062

Malkraz wrote:I'm not talking about the antag rolling, and the shit you mentioned is solved with an ERT and shuttle auto-call. There's 0 reason to punish when you can instead just tailor the game to resolve the situation on its own.
This is the kind of shit regular game developers have to find solutions to all the time and it annoys me when this lazy "just tell them not to lmfao" is always brought up.

BeeSting12 wrote:I wouldn't deal with it in an IC manner satisfying for the murderboner because that's what they want. A shuttle call set to a shorter time is a good way to deal with it ICly. Not satisfying for the murderboner and if he recalls then that gives you an excuse to spawn a hundred spiders on him or something.

I also don't feel like there should be a hard number where murderboning is/isn't allowed because then we'd get rules lawyers saying, "well, there were 31 players on the server and the lowpop threshold is 30 so I didn't break any rules."

It should be dealt with by warning the guy, giving him a three month expiration note, and leaving it at that. Three months is long enough to see that he changed, and I wouldn't even consider it a punishment since the note expires.


beesting puts it best, my only concern with a 3 month note is them gaming it by not playing. I'm not arguing against just flat out murderbone but systematically depopulating the station when nobody can actually resist and preventing shuttle calls on lower population counts.

If you murderbone and call the shuttle and have the decency to end the round I don't think anyone will ever care but sending an ert is a bonus reward to the small number of players I'm specifically referencing that spam recall and murderbone. A code solution would be to cut TC to 10 on lowpop or have scaling tc so traitors have a severely gimped toolset that they can still use for murder or murderbone if they're skilled rather than needing specific popcount blacklists for everything imo. 10 tc gives you a mix of decent lethal weapons with the stechkin/esword while keeping the more broken stuff out of people's hands unless they cooperate or work with cargo.

But again, the servers are fine as is with murderboning and there really is no reason to change anything now. What I'm referencing here is the past when we had an extremely bad rash of people who exclusively did that shit to kill the servers and nothing else and explaining why there are still technically limits despite almost all normal players never actually hitting them.
Last edited by Karp on Thu May 30, 2019 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby Karp » Thu May 30, 2019 11:08 am #496063

teepeepee wrote:
Spoiler:
Karp wrote:
teepeepee wrote:
BeeSting12 wrote:I also don't feel like there should be a hard number where murderboning is/isn't allowed because then we'd get rules lawyers saying, "well, there were 31 players on the server and the lowpop threshold is 30 so I didn't break any rules."

it's not retarded because there would be "rules lawyering", it's retarded because admins are shitheads that will bend the meaning of any such rule to include " well it was 31 so it still counts"
just remove rule 4 if you have an issue with this, why is there a rule that contradicts your plan for the game so much but you refuse to change it?
you're just tricking people telling them they can do whatever as antag except when they are "murderboning" on "lowpop"
what happens with people that play on a low activity timezone? is playing the game like they would in highpop forbidden for them? is this another retarded non-issue only admins and crybaby players see?


Image

post all the funny images you want but don't derail the thread please, tardmin


Image

Try posting something that isnt "Bloo bloo the admins took a dump in my cereal and they're all evil!" you manbaby

rule 4 and murderboning are fine but the objective issue comes when it's done explicitly to be a dick to an unruly degree. If you only play when you get an antagonist roll, if you constantly spam recall the shuttle when you've killed off most the station, and/or if you exclusively focus on going for a highscore to try to lower server popcounts as hard as you can is where the line tends to be drawn on rule 1 violations of murderboning from what I've seen from nearly every policy discussion or admin discussion on the topic. If someone's willing to call the shuttle or they try to do it in a funny way nobody would give a shit and it wouldn't be an issue.

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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby teepeepee » Thu May 30, 2019 12:31 pm #496071

Karp wrote:rule 4 and murderboning are fine but the objective issue comes when it's done explicitly to be a dick to an unruly degree. If you only play when you get an antagonist roll, if you constantly spam recall the shuttle when you've killed off most the station, and/or if you exclusively focus on going for a highscore to try to lower server popcounts as hard as you can is where the line tends to be drawn on rule 1 violations of murderboning from what I've seen from nearly every policy discussion or admin discussion on the topic. If someone's willing to call the shuttle or they try to do it in a funny way nobody would give a shit and it wouldn't be an issue.

hey fucktard, have you not read the rule? it says:
The rules wrote:4. Lone antagonists can do whatever they want.
Short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals. Team antagonists can do whatever they want as per lone antagonists, as long as it doesn’t harm their team. Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists as per lone antagonists, but non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause. Non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag.

this tells you can be a dick all you want as long as you don't bug abuse, spam, metacomms or break inmersion(all stuff contained in other rules, basically telling you which ones still apply, not including "don't be a dick") what you propose is not just limiting that, but that you already have and will punish people for "lowpop murderbone" because "they are dicks" before changing this rule, this is why I originally said that the rules as they are now bait people into getting banned by shitheads like you that can't interpret simple sentences but expect players to read and abide by them and will ban them for not playing how you like instead of for breaking the rules
keep posting funny images, they go well with how you act

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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby Malkraz » Thu May 30, 2019 12:32 pm #496072

Karp I don't understand why you keep ignoring the fact that I said to include a forced shuttle call with the ERT, and make it so it can't be recalled. I see no reason to punish people just because the non-antags being fucking horrible enough to ALL get killed by them as long as they don't (can't) delay the round further, so I really don't get this entire "muh bonus round" idea around the ERT. The ERT is there to get a few players back into the game to attempt to end it even quicker. Why is it a bad thing if the antag enjoys fighting them? You're not going to "depopulate the server" when a hard time limit is set on it unless people are fucking assmad they couldn't beat 1 guy with lowpop traitor gear. You'd be fucking amazed the shit I've seen over hundreds of hours where people go an entire half hour completely unaware there's even an antagonist. It's no wonder murderbones are even possible when a large portion of the playerbase simply has no sense of what's going on outside a 9 tile radius. If people really want to be babies about a mean ol' player making them transparent during lowpop because they couldn't look at chat for 3 seconds to see the AI filling it with 42 point text then you should just turn Extended into a vote already so people can do that if they want to.
Image
Franklin Khan says, " Well I know who I'm metagrudging from now on "
Istoprocent: You and Rock Steele definitely metabuddies, proving metacomms will take time but eventually people will figure it out.
Declan Cooper asks, " does rock steel have autism? "
Erik489: Malkraz, I gotta ask, and please be honest. Do you metacomm with Rock Steel?
Lumbermancer: also rock should be killed every round
Willy Willee says, " And he kept spam-tabling me, while his metafriend came over "
ATHATH: Rock Steel, I fucking hate you with a passion. I was alive on the station for less than a minute, you absolute cunt you CREMATING ASSHOLE I GENUINELY *HATE* YOU
Adam Karlsson says, " i just want rock " Shaun McFall says, " you know you'll get harshly punished for this right " Adam Karlsson says, " oh i know "
Aidan Duncan says, " Once again, Rock Steel is the fucking worst person on the station "
Twaticus: malk i hate you why do you ruin everything
Alijah Petrov says, " Actually then, im just gonna start robusting rock steel every time i see him "
Adolph Weinstein says, " I like how we have a wizard onboard, and the only person causing shit is Rock "
[Common] Most Likely Malfunction states, " BORG RETURN TO THE CLONEER AND ISPOSE OF ROCK STEELS BODY. "
Dee Dubya: the fact that Rock Steel hasn't been permabanned is proof enough of how low RP /tg/station really is
hanna banana: Rock Steel pushes me over in game and steals my insuls i get so mad i start screaming

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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby cedarbridge » Thu May 30, 2019 1:28 pm #496076

Malkraz wrote:You'd be fucking amazed the shit I've seen over hundreds of hours where people go an entire half hour completely unaware there's even an antagonist. It's no wonder murderbones are even possible when a large portion of the playerbase simply has no sense of what's going on outside a 9 tile radius. If people really want to be babies about a mean ol' player making them transparent during lowpop because they couldn't look at chat for 3 seconds to see the AI filling it with 42 point text then you should just turn Extended into a vote already so people can do that if they want to.

Man repeatedly tells admins "I've never seen it so it don't real" until blue in the face. Will update as the situation develops.

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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby Malkraz » Thu May 30, 2019 1:35 pm #496081

cedarbridge wrote:Man repeatedly tells admins "I've never seen it so it don't real" until blue in the face.

what is this schizoposting what did I say "wasn't real"??? is this your brain on anime?
Image
Franklin Khan says, " Well I know who I'm metagrudging from now on "
Istoprocent: You and Rock Steele definitely metabuddies, proving metacomms will take time but eventually people will figure it out.
Declan Cooper asks, " does rock steel have autism? "
Erik489: Malkraz, I gotta ask, and please be honest. Do you metacomm with Rock Steel?
Lumbermancer: also rock should be killed every round
Willy Willee says, " And he kept spam-tabling me, while his metafriend came over "
ATHATH: Rock Steel, I fucking hate you with a passion. I was alive on the station for less than a minute, you absolute cunt you CREMATING ASSHOLE I GENUINELY *HATE* YOU
Adam Karlsson says, " i just want rock " Shaun McFall says, " you know you'll get harshly punished for this right " Adam Karlsson says, " oh i know "
Aidan Duncan says, " Once again, Rock Steel is the fucking worst person on the station "
Twaticus: malk i hate you why do you ruin everything
Alijah Petrov says, " Actually then, im just gonna start robusting rock steel every time i see him "
Adolph Weinstein says, " I like how we have a wizard onboard, and the only person causing shit is Rock "
[Common] Most Likely Malfunction states, " BORG RETURN TO THE CLONEER AND ISPOSE OF ROCK STEELS BODY. "
Dee Dubya: the fact that Rock Steel hasn't been permabanned is proof enough of how low RP /tg/station really is
hanna banana: Rock Steel pushes me over in game and steals my insuls i get so mad i start screaming

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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby cedarbridge » Thu May 30, 2019 1:55 pm #496085

I'm good at forum posts and trimmed off your "you're not going to get empty servers unless" line where you seem to be having trouble understanding that the instance we're discussing /does/ empty servers and would still do so even if there were an ERT potentially sent. Either you're too new to know or just don't play during lowpop hours to know what you're talking about.

That you can't understand why rewarding a player for silently and systematically depopulating the server is bad speaks probably to your preferred playstyle more than anything but I'll take another swing at explaining it. If (very strong "supposedly" here), the claim is true that players silently murderbone+recall because they want a "challenge" (which they apparently get from killing a lot of unaware people one at a time until there are no other unaware people on the server) and we've determined that this playstyle results in people just leaving the server rather than joining a blob of ghosts orbiting the latest powergamer flexing their KDR in a roleplaying game, why would coders or admins take steps that would provide that challenge as a product of that player's actions that resulted in the bad situation in the first place? You don't provide the thing that a person wants after they do a thing that you don't want them to do. Doing this as an automated system doesn't help you either because not only are you automating the process of giving the player doing the undesired activity a reward (the thing they supposedly wanted from the start) you're doing it in a way that they can avoid entirely by further gaming the system in an arbitrary way.

Next you'll say "well, if they try to game the automated system then admins can just step in and do it manually" and you've thus explained why the automated system wasn't needed in the first place. If admins were present then why would they need to automate anything? If admins aren't present, then who is going to step in?

As I said before, the last time somebody was banned for this (to my knowledge) was 2016 and they were a persistent and chronic case. Servers /did/ empty out for the better part of 1-2 hours every time the guy rolled antag because they'd do it when no admins were on to tell them not to. Not that the presence of an admin would change your perception of events anyway since you believe that Rule 4 should be sacrosanct and protect the "rights" of an antag over the general health of the server. This is why I've always rather disliked Rule 4 is verbage and in concept. Rule 1 is an OOC rule, not an IC rule. The understanding is that we as players are all on the server to have a good time and share interesting stories and such. Low-pop silent murderboninig is fun for exactly one person and is conducive to the opposite of a good time and interesting stories. If you want a shallow BR experience I hear Fortnite is still popular and has substantially better gunplay.

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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby Malkraz » Thu May 30, 2019 2:07 pm #496086

cedarbridge wrote:I'm good at forum posts and trimmed off your "you're not going to get empty servers unless" line where you seem to be having trouble understanding that the instance we're discussing /does/ empty servers and would still do so even if there were an ERT potentially sent. Either you're too new to know or just don't play during lowpop hours to know what you're talking about.

Do I need to put the SEND IN AN UN-RECALLABLE SHUTTLE ALSO in bold text there u go. unless babies are assmad you're not gonna clear the server with hard limits set on how long people are gonna be orbiting. I literally only play during lowpop hours and I've seen murderbone. I've also stopped murderbone because I pay attention to the game around me.
cedarbridge wrote:That you can't understand why rewarding a player for silently and systematically depopulating the server is bad speaks probably to your preferred playstyle more than anything

I've murderboned maybe 3 times as antag, I generally don't like taking people out of the round unless they threaten the same. Refer to my previous post to Karp for the reasoning behind the ERT but you've already missed plenty of what I've posted. I don't believe killing a bunch of babies who don't even attempt to stop the antag or are even aware he exists to be something people should be punished for. Antags usually do things like turn you horizontal.
cedarbridge wrote:Next you'll say "well, if they try to game the automated system then admins can just step in and do it manually"

If you're going to "game the system" by keeping a certain percentage of players alive then you're not really doing anything that would necessitate the system to activate in the first place. If people end up killing themselves out of boredom then here ya go, new round.
cedarbridge wrote:As I said before, the last time somebody was banned for this (to my knowledge) was 2016 and they were a persistent and chronic case. Servers /did/ empty out for the better part of 1-2 hours every time the guy rolled antag because they'd do it when no admins were on to tell them not to.

Never said it hasn't been a problem in the past, which is why I offered an idea for a code solution to help relieve the amount of damage the more extreme cases have the potential to cause.
Image
Franklin Khan says, " Well I know who I'm metagrudging from now on "
Istoprocent: You and Rock Steele definitely metabuddies, proving metacomms will take time but eventually people will figure it out.
Declan Cooper asks, " does rock steel have autism? "
Erik489: Malkraz, I gotta ask, and please be honest. Do you metacomm with Rock Steel?
Lumbermancer: also rock should be killed every round
Willy Willee says, " And he kept spam-tabling me, while his metafriend came over "
ATHATH: Rock Steel, I fucking hate you with a passion. I was alive on the station for less than a minute, you absolute cunt you CREMATING ASSHOLE I GENUINELY *HATE* YOU
Adam Karlsson says, " i just want rock " Shaun McFall says, " you know you'll get harshly punished for this right " Adam Karlsson says, " oh i know "
Aidan Duncan says, " Once again, Rock Steel is the fucking worst person on the station "
Twaticus: malk i hate you why do you ruin everything
Alijah Petrov says, " Actually then, im just gonna start robusting rock steel every time i see him "
Adolph Weinstein says, " I like how we have a wizard onboard, and the only person causing shit is Rock "
[Common] Most Likely Malfunction states, " BORG RETURN TO THE CLONEER AND ISPOSE OF ROCK STEELS BODY. "
Dee Dubya: the fact that Rock Steel hasn't been permabanned is proof enough of how low RP /tg/station really is
hanna banana: Rock Steel pushes me over in game and steals my insuls i get so mad i start screaming

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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby Cobby » Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:52 pm #496439

Low Pop murderboning is just a bit hard to define because there are few metrics to use for the player (although I still think it's pretty cruddy).

The obvious is eyeballing it, you can tell it's lowpop when you haven't painted the station red yet but it looks empty.

There's crew manifest, you can tell it's lowpop by methodically counting and hope you reach a magic number. Can't recall if you can ICly edit it or not.

There's who, but that isn't an actual how many people are playing.

Not to say these aren't sufficient tools combined but if you are looking to make a hard line in the sand do realize there's room for error on the player's part (admins have check antags, which give discrete numbers).
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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby Takeguru » Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:31 am #496533

Not like there's even low-pop anymore, even at 2:30 in the morning as of this post, both servers have more than 40 people, probably not all players but the point remains

I find that rule 4 pretty much shuts down any argument, you want to fix this "problem", go have rule 4 amended
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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby Malkraz » Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:49 am #496547

Bagil literally goes to 0 on most days of the week not long from now
Image
Franklin Khan says, " Well I know who I'm metagrudging from now on "
Istoprocent: You and Rock Steele definitely metabuddies, proving metacomms will take time but eventually people will figure it out.
Declan Cooper asks, " does rock steel have autism? "
Erik489: Malkraz, I gotta ask, and please be honest. Do you metacomm with Rock Steel?
Lumbermancer: also rock should be killed every round
Willy Willee says, " And he kept spam-tabling me, while his metafriend came over "
ATHATH: Rock Steel, I fucking hate you with a passion. I was alive on the station for less than a minute, you absolute cunt you CREMATING ASSHOLE I GENUINELY *HATE* YOU
Adam Karlsson says, " i just want rock " Shaun McFall says, " you know you'll get harshly punished for this right " Adam Karlsson says, " oh i know "
Aidan Duncan says, " Once again, Rock Steel is the fucking worst person on the station "
Twaticus: malk i hate you why do you ruin everything
Alijah Petrov says, " Actually then, im just gonna start robusting rock steel every time i see him "
Adolph Weinstein says, " I like how we have a wizard onboard, and the only person causing shit is Rock "
[Common] Most Likely Malfunction states, " BORG RETURN TO THE CLONEER AND ISPOSE OF ROCK STEELS BODY. "
Dee Dubya: the fact that Rock Steel hasn't been permabanned is proof enough of how low RP /tg/station really is
hanna banana: Rock Steel pushes me over in game and steals my insuls i get so mad i start screaming

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Re: Low pop murderboning

Postby Arianya » Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:58 pm #496574

As with all things this is shades of grey.

It's not like you're going to get in trouble on low pop for killing, or even killing a lot of people, but if you're going out of your way to delay the round indefinitely and try to make things crawl to a halt then you're going to run afoul of rule 1.

This is not something you can really bump into accidentally by just "killing people".
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