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Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:11 am
by oranges
So, nervere and wilchen are friends (indisputably so)
given the nature of the ban, wouldn't it be the best possible case to hand the ban over to another headadmin to rule on?
Do I think that nervere would let that impact the outcome of the appeal? No
Does it cost anything to hand it over to another headadmin and avoid forever casting doubt on the outcome? No
Given that one outcome is zero cost, and the other could taint a ban appeal that is already going to be combative given the depth of feeling about that player, why not do it?
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:23 am
by Whoneedspacee
no because there will always be that one group that holds it against him forever even if he's unbiased and represents his case for unbanning them fairly and despite /tg/ being well known for many second/third/fourth chances given enough time and proof that you've changed.
as you said zero cost to have it be literally anyone else. hell i didn't even know they were friends so stupid shit like someone digging chatlogs up can be avoided.
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:24 am
by oranges
Whoneedspacee wrote:no because there will always be that one group that holds it against him forever even if he's unbiased and represents his case for unbanning them fairly and despite /tg/ being well known for many second/third/fourth chances given enough time and proof that you've changed.
Why give them needless ammunition?
They are going to attack that point anyway, but you may as well strip them of the explosive nature of it by handing it over.
edit: sorry I misread your post and thought you were saying they shouldn't hand it over.
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:24 am
by D&B
Let the host cut the rope hoisting the guillotine
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:25 am
by Ayy Lemoh
They should. It sucks when an admin has to ban or handle the ban of someone they like because there's always that feeling of double standards.
It would be best to avoid it on an appeal like this however there is no way to stop it 100%.
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:32 am
by Nervere
I understand your perspective on this, oranges, and I think it’s very fair. However, I’ve witnessed how people can dogpile on people they don’t like. Shezza, despite being banned for 9 months, has always had an uncomfortable amount of people... after him. Hell, some people are so obsessed with him that they take and post screenshots when we’re in the same voice channel together on the Discord. I haven’t witnessed this same behavior from the other two headmins, but I understand what influence that pressure from other admins can have on a ruling. I feel like, no matter which way this appeal goes, there will be at least some bias at hand.
I feel I’m the best-equipped to handle the appeal because as the banning admin I have the strongest grip on the facts of the case. Further, I don’t believe that if I were in any way biased when handling administrative actions against Shezza, that I’d be the same person who applied his in-game, discord, and forum bans. If it were my goal as a friend to protect him from consequences in the /tg/ community, I’d be doing a pretty terrible job.
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:33 am
by wesoda25
nerv proved he isn't going to let any personal opinion when he banned shezza when he caught wind of their erp session. He wasn't even in the round, but still read the logs and banned them. Friend or not nerv does not give a shit and will do what he thinks is best.
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:37 am
by oranges
Nervere wrote:I understand your perspective on this, oranges, and I think it’s very fair. However, I’ve witnessed how people can dogpile on people they don’t like. Shezza, despite being banned for 9 months, has always had an uncomfortable amount of people... after him. Hell, some people are so obsessed with him that they take and post screenshots when we’re in the same voice channel together on the Discord. I haven’t witnessed this same behavior from the other two headmins, but I understand what influence that pressure from other admins can have on a ruling. I feel like, no matter which way this appeal goes, there will be at least some bias at hand.
I feel I’m the best-equipped to handle the appeal because as the banning admin I have the strongest grip on the facts of the case. Further, I don’t believe that if I were in any way biased when handling administrative actions against Shezza, that I’d be the same person who applied his in-game, discord, and forum bans. If it were my goal as a friend to protect him from consequences in the /tg/ community, I’d be doing a pretty terrible job.
The facts of this case are pretty well established, I don't think there's anything specifically that qualifies you as more suitable, it's a pretty open and shut case, irrespective of the fact I don't think it qualifies as worthy of a permaban, what possible facts could you have that you can't pass on to the other headadmin. Im not asking you to not give input, I'm asking that we make what is going to be a controversial outcome either way free of any potential for complaint.
I find it highly uncomfortable that you refuse to hand over the ban to another headadmin, despite acknowledging how it looks and that you don't think the other headadmins are biased.
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:38 am
by Ayy Lemoh
Nervere wrote:I feel I’m the best-equipped to handle the appeal because as the banning admin I have the strongest grip on the facts of the case. Further, I don’t believe that if I were in any way biased when handling administrative actions against Shezza, that I’d be the same person who applied his in-game, discord, and forum bans. If it were my goal as a friend to protect him from consequences in the /tg/ community, I’d be doing a pretty terrible job.
Present the facts to other admins. If you unban shezza there will be more of a feeling of
gee whizz i fucking wonder why man what a mystery IF ONLY I KNEW compared to if someone else did it or fucking MSO himself. If shezza is banned then it may not feel as shady however you may be denying someone proper justice or be seen as an asshole.
Also just because you punished someone in the past doesn't mean your beliefs on that moment hold over now. They may have changed. Maybe you feel more sympathy now. Maybe you could theoretically like them less now.
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:38 am
by Nervere
What exactly would be accomplished by handing over the ban to another headmin?
If the other two headmins do not like my ruling, it is within their power to overturn it.
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:39 am
by Ayy Lemoh
Nervere wrote:What exactly would be accomplished by handing over the ban to another headmin?
If the other two headmins do not like my ruling, it is within their power to overturn it.
Fair point.
What about MSO?
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:39 am
by Rustledjimm
Honestly I had little issue deadminning people I liked and banning/noting players I liked.
However having been a headmin your job is to be skeptical of other admins. Including other headmins. In a case like this is think it should be all three headmins who discuss the appeal.
Nervere may be the banning admin but they should be looking at Wilchen's entire time within this community not just this one case.
I believe it would be balanced for it to be all three headmins, including Nervere. Even if Nervere is biased or unbiased there are two other headmins there who are not in question at least.
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:41 am
by Nervere
Ayy Lemoh wrote:Nervere wrote:What exactly would be accomplished by handing over the ban to another headmin?
If the other two headmins do not like my ruling, it is within their power to overturn it.
Fair point.
What about MSO?
MSO hasn’t been active at all for more than 10 minutes at a time in the past 2 months.
Just wait and see how long It takes for him to resolve imsxz’s headmin compliant.
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:42 am
by Nervere
Rustledjimm wrote:Honestly I had little issue deadminning people I liked and banning/noting players I liked.
However having been a headmin your job is to be skeptical of other admins. Including other headmins. In a case like this is think it should be all three headmins who discuss the appeal.
Nervere may be the banning admin but they should be looking at Wilchen's entire time within this community not just this one case.
I believe it would be balanced for it to be all three headmins, including Nervere. Even if Nervere is biased or unbiased there are two other headmins there who are not in question at least.
I think the most sensible solution is for me to rule on the ban myself and then await input from the other two headmins. If they disagree they can overrule me and I can’t do anything about that. Just like any other ban.
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:42 am
by oranges
Nervere wrote:What exactly would be accomplished by handing over the ban to another headmin?
If the other two headmins do not like my ruling, it is within their power to overturn it.
It means there is no ammunition to people who want to complain that you influenced the outcome.
It is rare for headadmins to overturn a ban being lifted, I don't recall ever seeing one. So people would definitely have ammunition to say that you used your position to influence the outcome.
Why let them have free ammo when there is an easy solution that avoids people complaining? You'd assume for a permaban that all headadmins would confer on it anyway, so why does it matter which one publically comments?
Edit: some people responded in discord and said that people complain anyway
true, but would you rather that they complain and have a point, or that they complain and look stupid?
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:47 am
by Nervere
oranges wrote:Nervere wrote:What exactly would be accomplished by handing over the ban to another headmin?
If the other two headmins do not like my ruling, it is within their power to overturn it.
It means there is no ammunition to people who want to complain that you influenced the outcome.
It is rare for headadmins to overturn a ban being lifted, I don't recall ever seeing one. So people would definitely have ammunition to say that you used your position to influence the outcome.
Why let them have free ammo when there is an easy solution that avoids people complaining? You'd assume for a permaban that all headadmins would confer on it anyway, so why does it matter which one publically comments?
If it’s just a matter of optics then it doesn’t matter. I think your shift to the discussion of optics rather than whether or not potential bias is involved is indicative that you understand there’s a check on my power that disallows for any bias to affect the outcome of this case. I frankly do not care how opponents of the ban view my ruling in the end. I will be called biased whether I approve or deny the appeal. I am already in a lose-lose situation and I won’t put the ban to a vote just to make naysayers happy. That’s a pretty weak-handed move and at the end of the day I’ll get overruled if my peers disagree.
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:51 am
by oranges
Nervere wrote:oranges wrote:Nervere wrote:What exactly would be accomplished by handing over the ban to another headmin?
If the other two headmins do not like my ruling, it is within their power to overturn it.
It means there is no ammunition to people who want to complain that you influenced the outcome.
It is rare for headadmins to overturn a ban being lifted, I don't recall ever seeing one. So people would definitely have ammunition to say that you used your position to influence the outcome.
Why let them have free ammo when there is an easy solution that avoids people complaining? You'd assume for a permaban that all headadmins would confer on it anyway, so why does it matter which one publically comments?
If it’s just a matter of optics then it doesn’t matter. I think your shift to the discussion of optics rather than whether or not potential bias is involved is indicative that you understand there’s a check on my power that disallows for any bias to affect the outcome of this case. I frankly do not care how opponents of the ban view my ruling in the end. I will be called biased whether I approve or deny the appeal. I am already in a lose-lose situation and I won’t put the ban to a vore just to make naysayers happy. That’s a pretty weak-handed move and at the end of the day I’ll get overruled if my peers disagree.
I don't agree that it's weak handed, what's weak handed is basically indicating that you don't trust your headadmin teammates to rule on a ban correctly.
A strong handed admin would have no issue in trusting their teammates to do the right thing.
Optics and appearance do matter, you ruling on this ban will be a blow for the things that tg should care about, which is that bans are fair and admins rule without bias.
I agree that there is a check, but I disagree that it matters to the optics as I mentioned.
Furthermore im not sure what you mean by me shifting the discussion, this has always been about the optics of the issue.
You are in a lose-lose situation but you can easily reduce the cost of the outcome and I just find it confusing and uncomfortable that you don't want to, what specifically do you have to lose?
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:58 am
by Rustledjimm
Nervere wrote:
I think the most sensible solution is for me to rule on the ban myself and then await input from the other two headmins. If they disagree they can overrule me and I can’t do anything about that. Just like any other ban.
Or you could just go straight to talking about it among yourselves right now. I did it many times during my term alongside Citrus, Arm and Owegno. It's not out of the norm at all. You are choosing to remove them from the process.
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:04 am
by Ayy Lemoh
The choices:
1. Headmins. Present viewpoints to each other. Hope they don't accidently ban the entire catgirl population.
2. MSO. Force him to sit on his chair for more than ten minutes. Update him to what's happening. Hope he doesn't break through the barricade at his door.
3. Nervere. Thinks of the verdict. Tell his verdict to the other headmins. Hope the server doesn't go into civil war somehow despite it sounding dumb.
4. Shezza decides the verdict. Worst choice. Seriously, this is the worst choice. Hope Shezza ends the pain and suffering.
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:05 am
by Rustledjimm
I don't believe MSO has the will nor the want to involve himself in such administrative practises. It's why we have the headmin team, they as a whole can deal with it. MSO shouldn't be in the equation unless he feels the headmin team have fucked up badly.
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:07 am
by Ayy Lemoh
Rustledjimm wrote:I don't believe MSO has the will nor the want to involve himself in such administrative practises. It's why we have the headmin team, they as a whole can deal with it. MSO shouldn't be in the equation unless he feels the headmin team have fucked up badly.
What do you think the barricade is for?
Yeah, that's why I ranked it second. It seems nice however is unrealistic and would just be fucking annoying for him.
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:22 am
by subject217
The other two headmins should reach a conclusion together and be the people deciding on the ban. Letting Nervere make the decision will be bad for him no matter what, because it will always appear like he's just helping out his metafriend. I fully believe 100% that Nervere never intentionally or unintentionally tried to help Shezza for the explicit purpose of getting him unbanned. However, when you have something like Shezza using his playing/admin experience on Beestation as a vouch, and a large reason why he got admin on Beestation in the first place is because Nervere personally vouched for him, it does not paint a pretty picture in any respect, and all that really serves to do is invite nasty accusations, mumbling and discontent about perceived corruption, and bad blood. I think that Nervere should understand that the facts of the case can and will IMO stand up for Shezza regardless of whether he is the one personally making the decision. I do believe he also elected to let another headmin decide on the Discord ban that was placed on Shezza, for a similar reason. Given the amount of history and circumstance specifically around stuff involved in this individual ban (the vouch is the main thing to me, it seems a bit circular in nature to do it that way) I think Nervere should make the same decision he did before. I think it could help people move towards letting go of the past as well. I don't really expect anyone to take my opinion on this seriously, but I hope you read this and think about it Nervere.
Maybe you should throw one of those good old "Probation"s on him for good measure ?
Also, one other thing.
Nervere wrote:If it were my goal as a friend to protect him from consequences in the /tg/ community, I’d be doing a pretty terrible job.
I am presenting a counterargument here not because I believe it is true but because I believe this is a very shoddy line of reasoning. It is obvious (to me anyways) that Shezza should and rightfully did get banned for the things that he did. Ergo, anyone could have applied it. By circumstance or intent (I don't believe it's intentional, but there's no proving it) Nervere being the person to ban his metafriend in no way shows a "terrible job" of protecting him from consequences. Indeed, it allows him to have direct control over when those consequences end, assuming that nobody else (the other headmins or MSO) were to step in here. So given that Shezza being banned is inevitable, Nervere being the person to ban him is the best outcome for Shezza (given the assumption of Nervere's bias, which I don't believe to be true). Do you see why that could be presented as troublesome?
Nervere wrote:I haven’t witnessed this same behavior from the other two headmins, but I understand what influence that pressure from other admins can have on a ruling. I feel like, no matter which way this appeal goes, there will be at least some bias at hand.
I would say that they already demonstrated a total lack of bias when you decided to let them handle Shezza's Discord ban. Anyone who would honestly accuse Wubli or Hulk of having a pro-Shezza bias is completely irrational, and they've demonstrated that even pressure from the admin team did not stop them from making the unbiased decision.
Nervere wrote:at the end of the day I’ll get overruled if my peers disagree
I think this is more about the nitpicks and specific circumstances of the decision (which I will presume is unban) then the overarching decision in the first place. While they might be inclined to intervene if they egregiously disagreed, if they have only a minor disagreement with how you handled something then they'd probably just let it go as it's not worth the energy to argue. I don't think "they can always overrule me" is really a valuable statement here given those circumstances.
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:46 am
by leibniz
woah, all these words dedicated to rule 8 stuff
why do we even perma people for this shit
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:55 am
by subject217
The funny thing is that not a single post in this thread has had remotely anything to do with Rule 8. It is about admin bias and (somewhat) giving the same person 500 chances after they have fucked up a ton.
wesoda25 wrote:nerv proved he isn't going to let any personal opinion when he banned shezza when he caught wind of their erp session. He wasn't even in the round, but still read the logs and banned them. Friend or not nerv does not give a shit and will do what he thinks is best.
This is incorrect, as I remember it. The logs are all in some ban appeal somewhere I think.
The thingy happened and it went on for something like 15 minutes. Esk then ahelped and at that point admins were aware of what Shezza/Esk had been doing. IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY... the person handling the ahelp was SuicidalPickles, who Nervere was there training at the time, and they agreed to go to the next round to not hold the round up and Nervere stepped in because it's really not a ticket that an AC should be handling. I distinctly remember logging on to watch Shezza getting banned.
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:01 am
by wesoda25
Its bc if we talk about rule 8 it’d derail the thread, this is just about whether or not nerv should be the judge, the ban appeal and peanut threads are for talking about the appeal.
Also oob guess I don’t know shit, still he cut through the bullshit and banned them. At this point nerv can do whatever the fuck he wants, and this is just a thread advising him how to shift the blame of the decision from himself to others.
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:55 am
by lmwevil
everyone would shut up if you just put the other two headmins in on the ban tbqh, instead of having them 'overrule' just you know.. be a team? talk about things like adults?
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:15 am
by Rustledjimm
lmwevil wrote:everyone would shut up if you just put the other two headmins in on the ban tbqh, instead of having them 'overrule' just you know.. be a team? talk about things like adults?
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:30 am
by Coconutwarrior97
I think the best choice is to have it be a headmin team decision. I honestly have faith in nerv to be unbiased.
However, I can definitely see how suspicious this can look to other people. Nerv is friends with shezza, and is handling their appeal since he was the one who placed it. There is a relationship there which people could perceive as causing a bias.
Similarly we don't allow admins to handle tickets they are involved in during a round. While I would generally trust admins to be unbiased in ruling on a ticket like that its still important that we don't allow them too.
Now, I know that comparison isn't 100% accurate but I still feel like there is a significant enough involvement on Nerv's part with this to favor making it a headmin decision.
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:49 am
by Not-Dorsidarf
If the headmins dont rule on it in 15 days we're legally allowed to leave.
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:04 am
by tinodrima7020
Who knew that acting like an adult needed multiple essays about common sense typed out.
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:47 am
by jcll
lmwevil wrote:everyone would shut up if you just put the other two headmins in on the ban tbqh, instead of having them 'overrule' just you know.. be a team? talk about things like adults?
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:34 pm
by imsxz
subject217 wrote:snip.
I watched the ticket firsthand but don’t have the logs on hand. Nobody was bothering with shezza and eskj until eskj ahelped. They ahelped that shezza has detained them for too long, unrelated to the specific actions. That’s why pickles wasn’t looking at emote logs I’d guess, I wouldn’t have looked at them either. The ticket wasn’t even about the “ERP” until nervere saw shezzas logs.
That’s how i remember it, but if someone with the logs shows otherwise I’ll concede my point.
If I’m remembering correctly it’s not like nervere was forced to ban his long time conspirator shezza with plans to unban him once it blew over. Nervere made an unbiased choice doing what he felt was best as headmin even if he and shezza are friends. There’s no reason he shouldn’t be allowed to make an unbiased ruling on the ban appeal as well
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:37 pm
by imsxz
also yeah if the other 2 headmins don’t agree with nervere unbanning shezza they can just overrule it and tell nervere and shezza to go suck eggs
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:51 pm
by Mickyan
In the legal system they call it "avoiding appearance of impropriety", it means avoiding situations where ethics questions can be raised regardless of whether or not something unethical is in fact occurring
I think oranges has a point, regardless of whether someone can be trusted to do the right thing, admins that are personally invested should recuse themselves from ruling over bans
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:41 pm
by imsxz
The thing is most people are personally invested or heavily biased about shezza for better or worse. Besides, having people that weren't even there to watch the situation making the first ruling on another admins ban is just silly. Shezza is a pretty polarizing figure, you'd be hard pressed to get someone both informed AND unbiased. I can't think of anyone better for the "unbiased but still knows what happened" role than Nervere, the way he handled the situation originally had me thinking he had something AGAINST shezza, at the time I had no idea they were OOC friends and if i only had that experience and this appeal to go off I certainly wouldn't know any better.
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:36 pm
by cedarbridge
To belabor the legal metaphor a bit more. Beyond the mere avoidance of the appearance of impropriety is also a duty to avoid conflicts of interest. Its why you'll never see an attorney represent both sides of the same coin and get away with it. This includes situations where you merely appear to be overly involved with one of the parties to the degree that your objectivity could reasonably be called into question. This isn't to say or even imply that your character or honesty are in question, but where circumstances exist that would make such questions reasonable, it is best to avoid them all together. You've said already that you feel protective about this matter and that alone can be enough to taint either the content of your rulings on the matter or merely undermine perceptions about the nature and content of your rulings for the foreseeable future.
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:18 pm
by imsxz
ok lawman you can find us a jury that doesnt already hate or love shezza in this tight knit community that theyve been active in
i can think of a few admins that straight up said "yeah dont let them back in ever" after they were originally banned and that sounds like bias to me sir
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:25 pm
by cedarbridge
imsxz wrote:ok lawman you can find us a jury that doesnt already hate or love shezza in this tight knit community that theyve been active in
i can think of a few admins that straight up said "yeah dont let them back in ever" after they were originally banned and that sounds like bias to me sir
Its not really that complicated. We have two other headmins in good standing who were not directly involved in Shezza's ban and who have not made statements that imply that they are involved in rehabilitating his reputation or involved in getting him a referenceable "vouch" admin position on another server. Its not about finding a jury and just finding a judge that isn't practically a relative of the defendant.
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:18 pm
by Rustledjimm
imsxz you keep saying how the admin who handled the ban should deal with it as they know the situation.
I reiterate that considering Shezza's past that this should not be about the singular ban but about their entire time at their community. That is how we deal with other players and so it is how shezza should be dealt with instead of being given special treatment by Nervere.
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:27 pm
by Nervere
Rustledjimm wrote:imsxz you keep saying how the admin who handled the ban should deal with it as they know the situation.
I reiterate that considering Shezza's past that this should not be about the singular ban but about their entire time at their community. That is how we deal with other players and so it is how shezza should be dealt with instead of being given special treatment by Nervere.
This is rich coming from the guy whose head has been a rent-free luxury apartment space for Shezza for the past 12 months.
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:37 pm
by Nervere
Mickyan wrote:In the legal system they call it "avoiding appearance of impropriety", it means avoiding situations where ethics questions can be raised regardless of whether or not something unethical is in fact occurring
I find this argument persuasive. I've asked the other two headmins to comment on this thread, we'll see what they say but I find my thoughts shifting on this matter.
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:00 pm
by cedarbridge
Rustledjimm wrote:imsxz you keep saying how the admin who handled the ban should deal with it as they know the situation.
I reiterate that considering Shezza's past that this should not be about the singular ban but about their entire time at their community. That is how we deal with other players and so it is how shezza should be dealt with instead of being given special treatment by Nervere.
I'm trying to figure out what particular facts about this case (leading to the ban itself) require litigating here. The logs are all clear and unambiguous. The ban was placed properly at the time. The only thing that needs adjudication is determining if the player who was banned is suitably capable of returning to the community from that ban. That's not a factual issue. Its an administrative issue.
How is "knowing the situation" here not just a rephrase of "knowing the person involved" or "involved with the person involved?"
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:04 pm
by Whoneedspacee
Nervere wrote:Rustledjimm wrote:imsxz you keep saying how the admin who handled the ban should deal with it as they know the situation.
I reiterate that considering Shezza's past that this should not be about the singular ban but about their entire time at their community. That is how we deal with other players and so it is how shezza should be dealt with instead of being given special treatment by Nervere.
This is rich coming from the guy whose head has been a rent-free luxury apartment space for Shezza for the past 12 months.
cat fight
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:09 pm
by Rustledjimm
Nervere wrote:Rustledjimm wrote:imsxz you keep saying how the admin who handled the ban should deal with it as they know the situation.
I reiterate that considering Shezza's past that this should not be about the singular ban but about their entire time at their community. That is how we deal with other players and so it is how shezza should be dealt with instead of being given special treatment by Nervere.
This is rich coming from the guy whose head has been a rent-free luxury apartment space for Shezza for the past 12 months.
You could address the concerns stated here rather than being childish. Yes I dislike shezza and I have made that clear. Clearly however I'm far from the only one concerned.
The fact you decide to try and insult me rather than counter what I'm saying is telling. Because you have no good answer.
In response to cedar, I am saying that the decision as to whether Wilchen should be allowed back into the community should be up to all the headmins. Just because Nervere knows the specifics around this specific ban doesn't matter as you said. So why shouldn't the other headmins be brought in? Nervere has fought to make sure he had sole decision and only now after seeing the concern from the community is he actually 'listening' while he throws insults at others.
Edit: in the same vein I would not ask/would refuse to judge on the case as I am clearly biased myself.
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:26 pm
by imsxz
cedarbridge wrote:Rustledjimm wrote:imsxz you keep saying how the admin who handled the ban should deal with it as they know the situation.
I reiterate that considering Shezza's past that this should not be about the singular ban but about their entire time at their community. That is how we deal with other players and so it is how shezza should be dealt with instead of being given special treatment by Nervere.
I'm trying to figure out what particular facts about this case (leading to the ban itself) require litigating here. The logs are all clear and unambiguous. The ban was placed properly at the time. The only thing that needs adjudication is determining if the player who was banned is suitably capable of returning to the community from that ban. That's not a factual issue. Its an administrative issue.
How is "knowing the situation" here not just a rephrase of "knowing the person involved" or "involved with the person involved?"
i'll concede my point there, being there doesn't matter much in this case. Nerveres point about people dogpiling on shezza is mainly why I made the comment. I don't think many people are capable or willing to think past the fact that SHEZZA MAN BAD. I trust the headmin team but they get a ruling anyways after nervere's ruling regardless of what he says but I don't think it's fair to give it to some other admin when nervere is perfectly capable of making his own ruling.
I think everyones making too big of a deal about nerveres friendship with shezza like he fuckin permabanned shezza with one of the toughest types of bans to appeal (rule 0) i dont think he gave any special treatment to his friend
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:30 pm
by imsxz
Rustledjimm wrote:Nervere has fought to make sure he had sole decision and only now after seeing the concern from the community is he actually 'listening' while he throws insults at others.
he knew from the start and has already stated that the other 2 headmins have the power to overrule his decision without anything he can do about it.
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:34 pm
by Super Aggro Crag
Shezza sent me a bunch of messages telling me to kill myself
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:39 pm
by Rustledjimm
imsxz wrote:Rustledjimm wrote:Nervere has fought to make sure he had sole decision and only now after seeing the concern from the community is he actually 'listening' while he throws insults at others.
he knew from the start and has already stated that the other 2 headmins have the power to overrule his decision without anything he can do about it.
He strictly said he was dealing with it. And yes while the other two headmins could overrule headmins rarely enjoy doing so publicly. Having been a headmin myself I understand that. By purposefully excluding them from the very start it set it up in a way so they would have to overrule publicly rather than doing the correct thing and bringing them into the process from the very start
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:48 pm
by cedarbridge
imsxz wrote:cedarbridge wrote:Rustledjimm wrote:imsxz you keep saying how the admin who handled the ban should deal with it as they know the situation.
I reiterate that considering Shezza's past that this should not be about the singular ban but about their entire time at their community. That is how we deal with other players and so it is how shezza should be dealt with instead of being given special treatment by Nervere.
I'm trying to figure out what particular facts about this case (leading to the ban itself) require litigating here. The logs are all clear and unambiguous. The ban was placed properly at the time. The only thing that needs adjudication is determining if the player who was banned is suitably capable of returning to the community from that ban. That's not a factual issue. Its an administrative issue.
How is "knowing the situation" here not just a rephrase of "knowing the person involved" or "involved with the person involved?"
i'll concede my point there, being there doesn't matter much in this case. Nerveres point about people dogpiling on shezza is mainly why I made the comment. I don't think many people are capable or willing to think past the fact that SHEZZA MAN BAD. I trust the headmin team but they get a ruling anyways after nervere's ruling regardless of what he says but I don't think it's fair to give it to some other admin when nervere is perfectly capable of making his own ruling.
I think everyones making too big of a deal about nerveres friendship with shezza like he fuckin permabanned shezza with one of the toughest types of bans to appeal (rule 0) i dont think he gave any special treatment to his friend
I don't disagree. Honestly, I don't even have any negative feelings about Shezza myself. My only concern is with the integrity of the process. And honestly, if anything would result in future "dogpiling" or harassment it would be a ban appeal granted based on a conflict of interest.
Re: Should nervere rule on wilchens ban
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:55 pm
by wesoda25
imsxz I think its the fact that the appeal process seems staged that has people worried. Nerv gets shezza admin on bee, then in turn this is used as evidence that shezza is a good player.... That and the fact that they are known to be friends is sus in general and it loops back to the argument of “whats the harm in passing the baton to other headmins”. If nerv were to handle it and unban shezza alone, the validity would constantly be called into question and I don’t doubt it’d result in shezza being permad again somewhere down the line. Having Hulk and Wubli (the former of which I can’t believe holds a grudge, and the latter who I doubt would let a grudge, if they have one, interfere) benefits not only Nerv, but Shezza as well.