/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

Provided that they don't destroy the armory's contents or hide/bring them outside of the armory, I don't see why wardens shouldn't be allowed to set up appropriate armory defenses roundstart.

But apparently, moving the contents of the armory into the two lockers that are already in the armory and then bolting those two lockers (and the HoS's locker, which I also moved to the armory) to the ground so they can't be yoinked by someone with a jetpack is "metagaming". What are we, an HRP server?

BeeSting12 wrote:Within the limits of the armory though, the warden should be able to do what he wants.

There is no rule 4 for warden powergaming.

What do you mean I can't put all the weapons in a bluespace bag within a bluespace bag within a bluespace bag inside a locker surrounded by taser turrets inside the armory filled with plasma and a motion sensor wired to an igniter protected by a subverted AI roundstart?
Why are tg admins suppressing my freedom of expression??

cedarbridge wrote:Would you be ok with the CMO spacing their hypospray at roundstart just because there's a non-zero chance that there could be a traitor in any number of potential rounds that might want to steal it as an objective? If not, then please explain why one case of pre-reveal antagfuckery is ok but others are not.

I would not be okay that, but I would ALSO not be okay with the warden spacing the armory roundstart. The CMO in your example was "securing" the hypospray by removing it from the places where it's supposed to be (either on the CMO's person or in the CMO's locker), which is less "securing" the hypospray and more like cremating it. A warden who secures the armory but does not remove weapons from it is keeping the weapons where they are supposed to be and keeping them available in case they need to be used.

I propose two criteria for roundstart setups for securing sensitive items and weapons (including those in the Armory, although hopefully this can be generalized to things like the CMO's hypospray, the HoS's armor and hardsuit (even though they're not objective items, they're still very valuable/strong pieces of gamer gear that should be kept secure), and the RD's reactive teleport armor) to determine if they're "legal" or not:
1. Are the items either inside of the Armory, in the rooms of their roundstart locations, on the persons of the people who are supposed to be responsible for them, or currently in use?
2. Are the items still easily and quickly retrievable and usable by people who are authorized to retrieve them (the Warden and the HoS)?

Clarifications for Part 1:
By "in use", I mean things like the reflective vest being worn by a member of sec, flashbangs being given to the clown, a disabler being in the detective's backpack in case he needs to use it to disable someone, etc. While they don't have to be used constantly, they should still be expected/allowed to be used by the people whom they're given to (so you can't just give the reflective vest to some random assistant in order to keep antags from getting their hands on it, although that would run afoul of Part 2).
By "on the persons of the people who are supposed to be responsible for them", I mean that the captain can keep his medal box and jetpack on his person, the CE can keep the blueprints on his person, etc.
I could be persuaded to drop the "still inside of the Armory, " bit of Part 1, meaning that you can't move the captain's jetpack, the HoS's laser gun, etc. to the armory at roundstart (but you could still keep them in their spawn locations, on the person of the people who are supposed to be responsible for them, or on the persons of people who are using them).

Clarifications for Part 2:
For example, if your Armory setup keeps even the HoS and/or the Warden from being able to distribute guns to the crew after a blob is announced, it's an illegal (invalid?) one. If the HoS can't be forced to reveal the location of the Armory's guns to a traitor who's kidnapped, tortured, and/or brainwashed them because they actually don't know where the Armory's guns are (because the warden never told them), it's illegal. If you irradiate all of the weapons in the Armory so that traitors can't use them but the HoS can't pick up an energy gun without instantly dying from radiation, your setup is illegal. If it takes you 10 minutes to disable all of your Armory setup's protection systems, to siphon all of the heated plasma gas out of the Armory, or to search through the pile of Armory items, lightbulbs, and various assorted pieces of trash that you've dumped all onto one tile for an energy gun, it's illegal.

Malkraz wrote:What do you mean I can't put all the weapons in a bluespace bag within a bluespace bag within a bluespace bag inside a locker surrounded by taser turrets inside the armory filled with plasma and a motion sensor wired to an igniter protected by a subverted AI roundstart?
Why are tg admins suppressing my freedom of expression??

This setup would run afoul of Part 2 because the HoS wouldn't be able to grab an energy gun from the armory without taking the time to find and put on an engineering hardsuit (or, if the burning plasma would harm the Armory's items, waiting for the subverted AI to drain all of the plasma out of the Armory so that the items won't get incinerated).

tldr;
Under my proposed revised rule, if a sensitive item (such as a gun or an objective item) isn't either in the Armory, on the person of someone who's supposed to have it, or in the same room that it starts the round in, your setup for securing that item roundstart would be invalid/illegal. Furthermore, if a sensitive item can't be retrieved upon a moment's notice (because you spaced or cremated it, for example, or because you don't know where it is) by the people who are responsible for it (that includes both the warden AND the HoS, so tell the HoS what you're doing to the Armory and/or his locker before you start securing them), your setup would also be invalid/illegal under my proposed revised rule.

cedarbridge wrote:An armory without weapons isn't really an armory. Its a room where people just presume an armory once existed.

I stopped reading here because everyone that went into detail said that the guns should stay inside the armory and you either didn't read enough to figure it out or you're just ignoring it to make your argument work

you dont even need to meta assume antags, space debris opening the armory to space will drag all the shit out into space which doesnt happen if its in a wrenched locker

Can we expand this to be a general brig securing question? Seen cat wardens round start block off the delivery/back maint entrance.

You can bolt the doors but you're not supposed to be walling them off and shit, completely nonsensical for any reason other than "antag bad"

As a bunch of other people have said in this thread, the station is intentionally flawed for the purpose of being exploited by antagonists and fixing all those flaws without a reason makes the game stupid and lame while killing creativity in how those weaknesses could be exploited.

terranaut wrote:

cedarbridge wrote:An armory without weapons isn't really an armory. Its a room where people just presume an armory once existed.

I stopped reading here because everyone that went into detail said that the guns should stay inside the armory and you either didn't read enough to figure it out or you're just ignoring it to make your argument work

you dont even need to meta assume antags, space debris opening the armory to space will drag all the shit out into space which doesnt happen if its in a wrenched locker

"Everyone" except for the people literally talking about shoving the guns into a locker and moving said locker to the warden's office. But go off.

Space dust won't launch the contents of the armory into space through r-walls. Tops it can remove the first layer of plating. If the warden is paying the slightest attention to their armory (as they should be) then they can patch the hole and they're good to go. There's no need to be moving the contents of the armory into a locker on such flimsy pretext. Nobody is moving the weapons to protect against inclimate space weather, they're doing it to "make things harder for antags' which they've never ascertained actually exist.

Boot wrote:Can we expand this to be a general brig securing question? Seen cat wardens round start block off the delivery/back maint entrance.

Sounds like a good time for a rad storm, tbh

cedarbridge wrote: Nobody is moving the weapons to protect against inclimate space weather, they're doing it to "make things harder for antags' which they've never ascertained actually exist.

You don't need to. Centcomm literally blares an announcement over loudspeaker at the start of nearly every single round that they've intercepted an enemy communication and confirmed a hostile presence aboard the station. Remember, every round is its own instance. Blue alert isn't an "oh this happens all the time" sort of thing like people say it is. Implying blue alert is a regular occurrence is the actual meta play, if we're completely honest. If you're a warden or a head of staff and hear the blue alert message, that means it's time to secure all your valuable shit immediately. For the warden, his "valuable shit" is the armory.

Boot wrote:Can we expand this to be a general brig securing question? Seen cat wardens round start block off the delivery/back maint entrance.

Sounds like a good time for a rad storm, tbh

If the warden/HoS decide to make maintenance too difficult to access, then by all means, an admin paying attention should trigger a rad storm just to show them a potential flaw in their setup.


By the way, as far as securing the armory goes, I agree entirely with this proposition. Obviously lockering the entire armory and dragging it off to xenobio maintenance is meta as fuck and not within the spirit of the game, but if the guns stay in the armory and easy to access for the people that are supposed to have access? That's completely kosher.

To be honest, I'm fine with adding passive defences that don't do the following:

• Either move the weapons and armour from the armoury, or, place the weapons/armour in a container that obscures their presence in the armoury (not visible on casual inspection).
• Prevent reasonable movement inside of the armoury (I.E. filling it up with glass/windoors).
• Are a work hazard (Filling it with plasma, radioactive material, and so on).

So stuff like lining the walls with glass, putting the guns in glass cages, replacing windoors with airlocks, or replacing metal airlocks with plasteel ones and/or reinforcing their maintenance panels is completely fine and kosher, but making turrets wouldn't be.

deedubya wrote:

cedarbridge wrote: Nobody is moving the weapons to protect against inclimate space weather, they're doing it to "make things harder for antags' which they've never ascertained actually exist.

You don't need to. Centcomm literally blares an announcement over loudspeaker at the start of nearly every single round that they've intercepted an enemy communication and confirmed a hostile presence aboard the station. Remember, every round is its own instance. Blue alert isn't an "oh this happens all the time" sort of thing like people say it is. Implying blue alert is a regular occurrence is the actual meta play, if we're completely honest. If you're a warden or a head of staff and hear the blue alert message, that means it's time to secure all your valuable shit immediately. For the warden, his "valuable shit" is the armory.

That antags exist is not evidence that a specific antag exists. In fact, without a roundstart green notice, even extended will not give you a green alert. The armory is designed as a "secure area" by default. There's no reason beyond those already outlined for somebody to subvert that further by hiding all of the weapons and gear already stored there.

cedarbridge wrote:

deedubya wrote:

cedarbridge wrote: Nobody is moving the weapons to protect against inclimate space weather, they're doing it to "make things harder for antags' which they've never ascertained actually exist.

You don't need to. Centcomm literally blares an announcement over loudspeaker at the start of nearly every single round that they've intercepted an enemy communication and confirmed a hostile presence aboard the station. Remember, every round is its own instance. Blue alert isn't an "oh this happens all the time" sort of thing like people say it is. Implying blue alert is a regular occurrence is the actual meta play, if we're completely honest. If you're a warden or a head of staff and hear the blue alert message, that means it's time to secure all your valuable shit immediately. For the warden, his "valuable shit" is the armory.

That antags exist is not evidence that a specific antag exists. In fact, without a roundstart green notice, even extended will not give you a green alert. The armory is designed as a "secure area" by default. There's no reason beyond those already outlined for somebody to subvert that further by hiding all of the weapons and gear already stored there.

The fact that antags exist - or at least that centcomm has reported the presence of enemy forces on the station - is reason enough to secure valuable assets. The possibility of false information isn't reason enough to ignore the warning. We even have "false alarm" as a random midround event that can occur, and those are almost never disregarded as fake news. Every piece of information to that effect should be taken seriously.

Also note that I already stated that I wholly disagree with "hiding" the contents of the armory. Re-read my prior post. As long as armory contents remain in the armory and weapons remain easily accessible by those with proper authority, there should be no issue with any modifications or reinforcement that the warden wishes to perform.

Anonmare wrote:

• Are a work hazard (Filling it with plasma, radioactive material, and so on).

I now want the armory to just be a dumping ground for old tech and dangerous shit, because there is a lack of radioactive substances and their hazards. Said dump just now happens to also be the weapon storage depot. Maybe related, maybe not.

cedarbridge wrote: The armory is designed as a "secure area" by default.

Also nice joke. Really.

Gamarr wrote:

cedarbridge wrote: The armory is designed as a "secure area" by default.

Also nice joke. Really.

To be fair, the only places more secure than that are the vault, AI upload, SM, gravity gen, and the bridge...wait hold on, why is the bridge more secure than the fucking armory?

Gamarr wrote:

cedarbridge wrote: The armory is designed as a "secure area" by default.

Also nice joke. Really.

Nothing is designed to be perfectly safe. That's the entire point. You should know that. Espcecially since that reason has already been discussed and promptly forgotten in this same thread. Its a room composed of R-walls, warden-locked doors and a beepsky. That's "secure" by any normal station metric. The apparent need in this thread to remove those guns from the armory or to shove the contents of that room into a locker (even if we believe you actually leave the locker in there) serves nothing but to pre-game the antags.

And no, I don't buy that the blue alert is Centcom dogwhistling to the warden "quick, hide the armory"

deedubya wrote:

Gamarr wrote:

cedarbridge wrote: The armory is designed as a "secure area" by default.

Also nice joke. Really.

To be fair, the only places more secure than that are the vault, AI upload, SM, gravity gen, and the bridge...wait hold on, why is the bridge more secure than the fucking armory?

Unless you're talking about the blast doors, it takes two hacked doors to get into the bridge.

cedarbridge wrote:

deedubya wrote:

Gamarr wrote:

cedarbridge wrote: The armory is designed as a "secure area" by default.

Also nice joke. Really.

To be fair, the only places more secure than that are the vault, AI upload, SM, gravity gen, and the bridge...wait hold on, why is the bridge more secure than the fucking armory?

Unless you're talking about the blast doors, it takes two hacked doors to get into the bridge.

It takes breaking one windoor now.

Don't be so foolish, you should appreciate the very high quality safety standards Nanotrasen takes to secure its station, up until you need a reason not to. (Note: the command report is often unreliable and should not be used as a reason to change safety standards)

What do you mean you live on a metal deathtrap? Get used to it! Try before you change!

cedarbridge wrote:

deedubya wrote:

Gamarr wrote:

cedarbridge wrote: The armory is designed as a "secure area" by default.

Also nice joke. Really.

To be fair, the only places more secure than that are the vault, AI upload, SM, gravity gen, and the bridge...wait hold on, why is the bridge more secure than the fucking armory?

Unless you're talking about the blast doors, it takes two hacked doors to get into the bridge.

I'd take that over being one r-wall away from venting to open space.

Yakumo_Chen wrote:Don't be so foolish, you should appreciate the very high quality safety standards Nanotrasen takes to secure its station, up until you need a reason not to. (Note: the command report is often unreliable and should not be used as a reason to change safety standards)

What do you mean you live on a metal deathtrap? Get used to it! Try before you change!

>Rely on NT!
>Don't rely on NT!
Memes

by the logic that "the station is supposed to be flawed" you shouldn't be able to use a better SM setup because that would make it harder to sabotage.
Pretty massive double standard.

SkeletalElite wrote:by the logic that "the station is supposed to be flawed" you shouldn't be able to use a better SM setup because that would make it harder to sabotage.
Pretty massive double standard.

security man bad
antags are ENTITLED to those guns

Let's just give the armory two layers of R-Wall with space tiles in-between, 7 turrets, and automated tesla coils tied to the security cam alerts.

The point of the armory isn't to always keep the guns secure, but to give people a moderately difficult time if they want to get weapons. To be fair, there is a lot that an antag can do without those weapons anyways. It's optional. If a warden wants to add some turrets or extra bots or whatever, sure, do your thing. I think the only real point of contention is that you shouldn't hide the guns and be a dick about it. If you want to camp the armory with a hardsuit and a shotgun just waiting for an antag to show up and bean them or hide the guns in lockers making it look like they aren't there, then you're a stick in the mud. If you want to spend your free time upgrading the armory and making it cooler, that's something you can do to enjoy the game more and it makes it emergent for whatever traitor decides they want to go and steal guns to gain another leg up.

The point of the policy is so that admins can take whatever given situation and determine whether it is good or bad for the current round. Removing the policy will just give more people the opportunity to do boring, stupid things that make the game harder/dumber/more obnoxious to play.

And I might just be a stupid dumb dumb sybil main, but acting like you're a normal officer/warden and not a member of a TDM metagang is a lot more fun for the game and a lot more enjoyable when you actually come across antags than using some OP metastrat that makes you "win." In case you didn't realize, losing is a part of the game. Sec doesn't need to be held by the hand and told they can do anything they want for interesting sec gameplay to come about, it's just that most people who play sec are idiots who think that the only time they can have fun is when they are denying their valids an interesting round.

elyina wrote:

SkeletalElite wrote:by the logic that "the station is supposed to be flawed" you shouldn't be able to use a better SM setup because that would make it harder to sabotage.
Pretty massive double standard.

security man bad
antags are ENTITLED to those guns

This is the thinking that people sadly take seriously. The "antag rounds are sacred" thinking among playerbase and admins needs to go away as it fucks over both game balance and restricts non-antag player actions like being creative with the construction system to build a better armory.

I know you are joking, but some people seriously think this.