Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

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Gamarr
 
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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby Gamarr » Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:31 pm #499780

You give the traitors all the toys to get jobs done, including portable teleporters and stealth weapons.

Let the fucking sec design the dept how they want, it's not like it's permanent beyond that round. Let the fucking warden do what he wants to the armory and brig.
It's this kind of shit that keeps sec players away from the dept.



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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby Dr_bee » Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:52 pm #499786

Gamarr wrote:You give the traitors all the toys to get jobs done, including portable teleporters and stealth weapons.

Let the fucking sec design the dept how they want, it's not like it's permanent beyond that round. Let the fucking warden do what he wants to the armory and brig.
It's this kind of shit that keeps sec players away from the dept.


The entire policy reeks of "muh antag round is sacred" to be honest. If the armory could be modified it might actually give a reason to buy some of the more niche toys, like the bluespace briefcase launchpad you mentioned.

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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby ATHATH » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:19 pm #499791

capn_monkeypaw wrote:Adding in the HoS' locker means that you've now metasecured two high-risk items inside your sec fort, which is doubly lame

Yes, I moved the locker that contains some of the best roundstart equipment in the game (and moved the HoS's hardsuit as well, since it is also a very good piece of equipment) out of the room that has no motion sensors, is out of visual and hearing range of my desk, and has multiple windows to space that can be used as no-welder-or-explosives-required entry points into the much more secure room room that is specifically designed to hold sensitive items and weapons. I fail to see the problem with that.

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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby ATHATH » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:27 pm #499792

Arianya wrote:If you have reasonable prior cause (such as known/confirmed revolutionaries on station) it's fair game! Note that code blue/roundstart threat report is not generally regarded as "reasonable" because it happens every round except for announced extended and is non-specific.

From our perspective, yes, a blue threat announcement happens almost every shift. But from the perspective of our characters? We're not supposed to retain knowledge of prior rounds; for all we know, the (near) start of the round could be the first time that the station has gone up to blue alert from an IC perspective.

This is like if on Star Trek, people didn't bother to move to their posts or grab their phasers when a red alert announcement is made without being ordered to because "eh, this happens every few episodes", ignoring how these red alert incidents are likely weeks, if not months apart from each other from an in-universe perspective.

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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby Cobby » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:27 pm #499853

Blue alert and red alert (both ingame and on Star Trek) mean something different, how are you coming to the conclusion you have free reign to knox it up on blue...?
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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby elyina » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:33 pm #499898

Uhm, excuse me, Admin? I didn't expect this extra wall to be here. This isn't okay. Please delete it and ban the warden so I may embark on murderbone round #183 which I am entitled to. Thank you.
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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby PKPenguin321 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:43 pm #499900

Dr_bee wrote:
Gamarr wrote:You give the traitors all the toys to get jobs done, including portable teleporters and stealth weapons.

Let the fucking sec design the dept how they want, it's not like it's permanent beyond that round. Let the fucking warden do what he wants to the armory and brig.
It's this kind of shit that keeps sec players away from the dept.


The entire policy reeks of "muh antag round is sacred" to be honest.

This was made a policy in what might be considered the peak years of security powergaming when we had optimal brig layout guides floating around (not dissimilar to old R&D meta guides), people like steelpoint existed, and lockers were virtually unopenable if you lacked an ID with access or an emag (meaning a warden could just stuff shit into the contraband locker and you were SoL 9 times out of 10)

If anything though, the policy killed the type of behavior that would warrant the policy being made, so if you're new like you are then it makes sense that you wouldn't see the point in it

All that aside, with the several code changes since the policy was made, removing the policy probably wouldn't hurt
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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby ATHATH » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:29 am #499922

Cobby wrote:Blue alert and red alert (both ingame and on Star Trek) mean something different, how are you coming to the conclusion you have free reign to knox it up on blue...?

Eh, I suppose that blue alert is more like yellow alert than red alert. Still, the point remains- we've received a transmission from Centcomm that there are hostile forces infiltrating the station, but aren't supposed to believe or react to those reports at all until we see a confirmed rev or syndie? Isn't the point of sending us the transmission and bringing us up to blue alert to get us to prepare for and be alert for enemy activity?

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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby ATHATH » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:34 am #499925

PKPenguin321 wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:
Gamarr wrote:You give the traitors all the toys to get jobs done, including portable teleporters and stealth weapons.

Let the fucking sec design the dept how they want, it's not like it's permanent beyond that round. Let the fucking warden do what he wants to the armory and brig.
It's this kind of shit that keeps sec players away from the dept.


The entire policy reeks of "muh antag round is sacred" to be honest.

This was made a policy in what might be considered the peak years of security powergaming when we had optimal brig layout guides floating around (not dissimilar to old R&D meta guides), people like steelpoint existed, and lockers were virtually unopenable if you lacked an ID with access or an emag (meaning a warden could just stuff shit into the contraband locker and you were SoL 9 times out of 10)

If anything though, the policy killed the type of behavior that would warrant the policy being made, so if you're new like you are then it makes sense that you wouldn't see the point in it

All that aside, with the several code changes since the policy was made, removing the policy probably wouldn't hurt

Could we perhaps try a test period with the policy removed/lightened to see if it would be a good or a bad change to make? Sort of like a new-rule test, except this time it'd be the absence of or a change to an old rule.

You could/should still probably keep in something about not destroying objective or armory items or hiding them in unreasonable locations for them to be hidden in (in a toilet in arrivals bathrooms, for example), though.

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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby HommandoSA » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:45 am #499937

ATHATH wrote:We're not supposed to retain knowledge of prior rounds


Rule 2 Precedents.
Characters are allowed to have persistent knowledge/relationships/friendships with the caveat that knowledge of a character being an antagonist from a previous round is not used

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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby SkeletalElite » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:02 am #499940

Most of the argument's against fortifying sec seem to be that there's no knowledge of a threat that requires it to be fortified but there's a roundstart notification and alert that there is possibly a threat to the station with a raise to blue (except for green shifts of course). That seems reason enough to me to fortify the armory. "Oh there's a possible threat to the station, I should make sure the armory is extra secure today."

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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby Arianya » Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:36 am #499998

I think people tend to forget that this is a game based on the roleplay that arises from a space station being struck by disaster, not a game based on gaming out how you can most effectively ensure that redtext appears before you've even seen someone with a shifty look about them, much less an actual antagonist.

If you think the armory/security is insecure in some way that is obtuse/not intended, then PR a map change.

If your objection is "the armory is too easy for a antagonist to break into!" the answer isn't "thus I should be able to do what I want", it's to either weaken the antagonist's breaching tools or reinforce the department map-side, assuming your concern is validated and it's not just objecting to the fact that antagonists can do things at all.

The game is not made fun for anyone by stagnation. Reinforcing the armory for no greater reason then "it's a round of SS13" just encourages stagnation by making everything so rounded edge that you can safely ignore it 99% of the time.

For reference, the armory should never be safe if left unattended. If the Warden dies, goes AWOL, etc. then that is meant to be a major gap in Security's team.
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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby Kangtut » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:26 am #499999

sec already gets serious protection under escalation. Stop being a pussy and do your job or die trying. If the warden would stop leaving the brig or check his camera console or use the remote he gets round start to bolt the doors then 90% of breach attempts can be stopped. The most you should do is have a hardsuit nearby incase you have to rush into space.

Sometimes you lose and trying to force policy to let you metagame and do shit that we don't allow other departments to do is cowardly. Atmos can't AI proof their pipes, AI's can't have their borgs destroy the upload and all spare boards, so wardens shouldn't get to have special privilege either.

You are allowed to reinforce at the first sign of a breach attempt anyway. That includes Grey McTide trying to hack his way in and getting caught at the door or a traitor c4ing in and getting caught by armsky. It's already relaxed enough as is you don't need to make it more of a hugbox.

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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby Gamarr » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:06 pm #500028

I've yet to see anyone lay out some of the bottom lines.
The server barely has rp, and you want the warden to sit in a brig for a whole story, basically.
On a server with no needs, really, and he could conceivably never die if he never moved from the wardens chair.
Do you realize how fucking boring warden is if done like this? This is why Wardens take off.
BOREDOM. They wanna go do SOMETHING.
Why do I reorder the brig and armory? Not to powergame. I am fucking just having fun and keeping myself busy, not because it is efficient.

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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby leibniz » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:18 pm #500029

Gamarr wrote:I've yet to see anyone lay out some of the bottom lines.
The server barely has rp, and you want the warden to sit in a brig for a whole story, basically.
On a server with no needs, really, and he could conceivably never die if he never moved from the wardens chair.
Do you realize how fucking boring warden is if done like this? This is why Wardens take off.
BOREDOM. They wanna go do SOMETHING.
Why do I reorder the brig and armory? Not to powergame. I am fucking just having fun and keeping myself busy, not because it is efficient.


but the thread doesnt say "never do this" it says "wait until someone shouts 'revs' on the radio"
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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby WarbossLincoln » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:33 pm #500031

The server barely has rp, and you want the warden to sit in a brig for a whole story, basically.


If you don't want to stay in the brig95% of the time, manage prisoners, defend the armory, and deal with sec officers abusing prisoners then don't play warden. Play a sec officer instead. You shouldn't be getting involved with threats outside the brig unless there's a catastrophe going on.

Your story as a warden is supposed to come from dealing with tiders, prisoners, and the inevitable attempt to breach the armory. Also dealing with stupid officers because inside the brig you're in charge(aside from the HOS).

Why do I reorder the brig and armory? Not to powergame. I am fucking just having fun and keeping myself busy, not because it is efficient.


No one said you can't touch either, you just can't reinforce it without some kind of indication of a threat to them. I highly doubt an admin is going to bwoink you for rearranging the armory, moving the guns around, changing the layout, etc. They're going to bwoink you when you start adding extra rwalls, locking guns in lockers, hiding them outside the armory, building turrets, etc.
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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby Shaps-cloud » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:59 pm #500033

Let's be honest here, the most common and egregious thing wardens do that draw admin ire is just shove all the guns in a locker and hide that locker, which is fucking lame and doesn't involve any effort

Want to build a turret in there? Work with robotics to get more beepskies or maybe an ED-209? Go ahead! But stop hiding the fucking guns
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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby Malkraz » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:11 pm #500035

90% of the time I see Wardens just sit in the back and let officers handle every single aspect of imprisonment by themselves. You dopes are doing this to yourself if you have nothing to do on a non-extended round. As soon as the suspect sets foot in the brig, he's your problem. Talk to the officer about what he did, process his imprisonment yourself, handle gulag and perma, organize an interrogation with the detective.
All this shit you could be doing but the majority of you never apply your buttery brains beyond OOGA BOOGA ME LEGSWEEP.
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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby elyina » Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:33 pm #500098

At the very least, getting back to the OPs point, there should be no issue putting the guns in a locker. I often put the guns inside the safes in the armory. I kinda figured that was their entire purpose.
Regardless it still seems like it would be an absurd situation for a traitor to adminhelp because there are walls he didn't expect to be there.
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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby teepeepee » Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:14 am #500108

elyina wrote:At the very least, getting back to the OPs point, there should be no issue putting the guns in a locker. I often put the guns inside the safes in the armory. I kinda figured that was their entire purpose.
Regardless it still seems like it would be an absurd situation for a traitor to adminhelp because there are walls he didn't expect to be there.

lmao @ that admin that says this policy is enforced at all times, not even admins follow it

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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby ATHATH » Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:23 am #500346

teepeepee wrote:
elyina wrote:At the very least, getting back to the OPs point, there should be no issue putting the guns in a locker. I often put the guns inside the safes in the armory. I kinda figured that was their entire purpose.
Regardless it still seems like it would be an absurd situation for a traitor to adminhelp because there are walls he didn't expect to be there.

lmao @ that admin that says this policy is enforced at all times, not even admins follow it

Yeah, this looks like pretty damning evidence that this is enforced really inconsistently.

Maybe we should put up an in-game poll or something about this?

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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby terranaut » Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:04 am #500353

"hey hop can i be spess explorer" / "ai door" / screwdriver multitool crowbar, ok you are now space worthy and have a jetpack
get canned air from vending machine, or a glowstick from YouTool + any soda can, grind that and a chair in the holodeck
congrats you now have thermite and can demolish any r-wall from space in about 3 seconds, just open the armory to space, you can also chuck an EMP grenade in (found in maint on meta or putting iron + uranium in two empty drinking glasses (50u) from the bar/maint bar or l. beakers printed from cargo) to kill armsky and boltshock the doors the warden can use to enter and potentially stop you while also panic-siphoning half the brig and killing AI camera coverage in the armory. or you can just pick up the ion rifle and shoot at armsky.
space wind will already drag everything nicely in your direction, just grab everything you need and everything that can be a danger to you and stuff it in a locker or chuck it into space.
should the warden somehow manage to get into the armory he's fighting the epic jetpack combat against an invader that is armed as well as him who will just yeet off into space the moment he's wounded too much or taken too much stamina damage because lol jetpacks.

breaching the armory is piss-fucking easy, as is breaching literally any place connected to space. i'm not saying that this means we need triple r-walls on the armory because its supposed to be secure, but if a warden wants to have some gameplay in the first 30 minutes of a round then let him fucking secure the armory. as long as the armory stays in the armory it should be completely fine for him to do whatever the fuck he wants with it, its literally his job.
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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:40 pm #500487

It sounds like jetpacks are the bigger issue here. Setting up glass to keep the guns from blowing out like on Box shouldn't be an issue either.
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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby cedarbridge » Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:10 am #500518

ATHATH wrote:
teepeepee wrote:
elyina wrote:At the very least, getting back to the OPs point, there should be no issue putting the guns in a locker. I often put the guns inside the safes in the armory. I kinda figured that was their entire purpose.
Regardless it still seems like it would be an absurd situation for a traitor to adminhelp because there are walls he didn't expect to be there.

lmao @ that admin that says this policy is enforced at all times, not even admins follow it

Yeah, this looks like pretty damning evidence that this is enforced really inconsistently.

Maybe we should put up an in-game poll or something about this?

Elyina being wrong on this particular point does not make for "damning evidence" of anything. Wardens are routinely yelled at for pulling this and have been jobbanned for the same.

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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby oranges » Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:13 am #500519

just more evidence admins are treated differently by their friends

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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby Takeguru » Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:27 am #500562

Jimmius wrote:here's a powerful brained take from me:
if you put the armory in a locker like a bitch nerd, someone will raid the armory and see there are no guns, and walk off.
but if you leave it where it is, they will try to steal all the guns, so you can get into a cool fight with the free valid that literally walked into the brig.


Except that they didn't walk into the brig
They popped open the wall to space, all the guns are sliding on the floor to the hole and they're just collecting what they want, while they duck into space the second you enter with half the armory in their bag while you could do nothing to prevent them from doing so
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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby terranaut » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:07 pm #500583

Yakumo_Chen wrote:It sounds like jetpacks are the bigger issue here. Setting up glass to keep the guns from blowing out like on Box shouldn't be an issue either.

i dont think nerfing jetpacks is the solution to wardens wanting to secure the armory a bit more (although i agree that jetpack combat is pure and unadultered aids. ever fought a jetpack changeling with adrenals and fleshmend pulling a filled pump? that was fucking awful)
engineers are allowed to modify the engine or do meme TEG setups that put 42 gigawatts into the network instantly husking anyone assistant that even looks at a cable the wrong way and put up multiple plasteel protected doors in their hallways to stop greyshitters/antags from walking in and stealing gloves
hell, the warden is allowed to set up barriers and flashes to make it more difficult for a prisoner to run off / be freed by a friend or fellow antag.
AIs are allowed to roundstart bolt upload + satellite to make it harder on people trying to break into either
all of these are things that happen routinely, and are much more common than a traitor stealing the armory. players have, and will continue to, devise strategies to defend against
why are wardens not allowed to put all the guns in the contraband/ammo locker? its not like its fucking difficult to unwrench it and then yeet off into space with it, in fact it's much faster than putting everything into your own locker or duffel bag and you wont trigger armsky for picking up a gun without a permit. a clever traitor will drop his backpack somewhere just out of camera range and approach with screwdriver + wirecutter in hand and snip the cam before the AI gets the motion alarm and splash thermite from a pocket and use welder/lighter from another pocket, then grab their bag while it burns.
as has been mentioned, as long as the armory stays in the armory the warden should have full control over it
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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby CPTANT » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:09 pm #500585

removing taser actually significantly nerfed security their ability to fight people with jetpacks.
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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby RG4ORDR » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:38 pm #500621

This is /tg/ station. It's a quite literally more monitored DarkRP of SS13.

The warden should have the free reign to secure and improve the armory as they see fit. We've seen countless times that traitors don't need to breach the armory or gain access to cause immense havoc.
You cannot trust anyone on these servers to not try and fuck around with the armory. It is not hard to breach, it not hard to get in and take guns, and it certainly isn't an impossible task to get in there. It's not impossible to get the guns out if they're locked and it's not impossible that won't be able to easily apprehend you if you prepared.
You legitimately cannot leave the armory alone for more than five minutes til someone starts getting ideas. If people see the warden outside the brig, then people start trying to break in. If the HoS and Warden are nowhere to be seen, someone will try to get in.

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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby Shaps-cloud » Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:41 pm #500626

tgstation isn't darkrp what are you talking about, darkrp would be goonstation's non-RP server or Hippie

You cannot trust anyone on these servers to not try and fuck around with the armory.


Good thing there's a job whose entire job is literally to be in the brig
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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby Skillywatt » Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:56 pm #500628

CPTANT wrote:removing taser actually significantly nerfed security their ability to fight people with jetpacks.


this is true and a separate discussion. removing the ability to insta-drop someone at range was a shadowbuff to jetpacks and bloodcult

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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby PKPenguin321 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:40 am #500733

ATHATH wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:
Gamarr wrote:You give the traitors all the toys to get jobs done, including portable teleporters and stealth weapons.

Let the fucking sec design the dept how they want, it's not like it's permanent beyond that round. Let the fucking warden do what he wants to the armory and brig.
It's this kind of shit that keeps sec players away from the dept.


The entire policy reeks of "muh antag round is sacred" to be honest.

This was made a policy in what might be considered the peak years of security powergaming when we had optimal brig layout guides floating around (not dissimilar to old R&D meta guides), people like steelpoint existed, and lockers were virtually unopenable if you lacked an ID with access or an emag (meaning a warden could just stuff shit into the contraband locker and you were SoL 9 times out of 10)

If anything though, the policy killed the type of behavior that would warrant the policy being made, so if you're new like you are then it makes sense that you wouldn't see the point in it

All that aside, with the several code changes since the policy was made, removing the policy probably wouldn't hurt

Could we perhaps try a test period with the policy removed/lightened to see if it would be a good or a bad change to make? Sort of like a new-rule test, except this time it'd be the absence of or a change to an old rule.

You could/should still probably keep in something about not destroying objective or armory items or hiding them in unreasonable locations for them to be hidden in (in a toilet in arrivals bathrooms, for example), though.

Late reply but this is a good idea, would like to see headmins get on board with trialing a removal of this policy. Lots of theory crafting in this but I feel it could go either way with meta-abuse to the max or effectively no change.
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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby Dr_bee » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:55 am #500735

Fun fact, you can now teleport the entire armory to your bluespace launchpad, bypassing any and all defenses made by a warden.

The argument that the warden cant add defenses to the armory because it wouldnt be fair to antags and would stagnate gameplay is a bad one. Antags already have every advantage over normal crew, and thinking adding a few turrets to the armory or putting R-glass on the edges of the armory will make gameplay stale is ass backwards, as the current meta of breaking into the armory is stale as FUCK.

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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby Timonk » Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:45 pm #500940

capn_monkeypaw wrote:
Hell, even the captain's office with all of its high-risk items has a second entrance connected to a little cameraless maint hallway.


It does have a camera if you speak about meta
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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby capn_monkeypaw » Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:20 pm #500948

Timonk wrote:
capn_monkeypaw wrote:
Hell, even the captain's office with all of its high-risk items has a second entrance connected to a little cameraless maint hallway.


It does have a camera if you speak about meta


I stand corrected. You're absolutely right.

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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby CPTANT » Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:39 pm #500959

Dr_bee wrote:Fun fact, you can now teleport the entire armory to your bluespace launchpad, bypassing any and all defenses made by a warden.

The argument that the warden cant add defenses to the armory because it wouldnt be fair to antags and would stagnate gameplay is a bad one. Antags already have every advantage over normal crew, and thinking adding a few turrets to the armory or putting R-glass on the edges of the armory will make gameplay stale is ass backwards, as the current meta of breaking into the armory is stale as FUCK.


Yeah this was pretty bad. He emptied out the entire armory and teleported a bomb straight on the AI. Still I see more in a code solution. There should be an item that prevents teleportion in a certain radius.
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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby Arianya » Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:30 pm #500963

Dr_bee wrote:the current meta of breaking into the armory is stale as FUCK.


SS13 is not about theorycrafting your ideal armory so you can say you're a meta-compliant warden.
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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby RG4ORDR » Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:38 pm #500966

There still isn't really a good reason to say that the Warden can't do this. The only complaint that it's considered power/metagaming because you're trying to intentionally deny antags from getting sweet loot.
Hell if you want to go the distance, make guncages to put the weapons into, so you need to popup a menu after clicking on it to get access. Course they'd need to be locked since no armory would ever leave weapon cages unlocked.

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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby cedarbridge » Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:49 pm #501157

RG4ORDR wrote:There still isn't really a good reason to say that the Warden can't do this. The only complaint that it's considered power/metagaming because you're trying to intentionally deny antags from getting sweet loot.
Hell if you want to go the distance, make guncages to put the weapons into, so you need to popup a menu after clicking on it to get access. Course they'd need to be locked since no armory would ever leave weapon cages unlocked.

There's no reason to say the atmos techs can't put manual valves on the plasma line at roundstart. The only complaint that its considered power/metagaming because you're trying to intentionally deny AIs from getting sweet plasma fires.
Hell, if you want to go the distance, make AIs unable to interact with the plasma lines without telling somebody first. Course they'd need to be locked since no atmosians would ever leave their department unattended.

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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby RG4ORDR » Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:09 pm #501164

cedarbridge wrote:
RG4ORDR wrote:There still isn't really a good reason to say that the Warden can't do this. The only complaint that it's considered power/metagaming because you're trying to intentionally deny antags from getting sweet loot.
Hell if you want to go the distance, make guncages to put the weapons into, so you need to popup a menu after clicking on it to get access. Course they'd need to be locked since no armory would ever leave weapon cages unlocked.

There's no reason to say the atmos techs can't put manual valves on the plasma line at roundstart. The only complaint that its considered power/metagaming because you're trying to intentionally deny AIs from getting sweet plasma fires.
Hell, if you want to go the distance, make AIs unable to interact with the plasma lines without telling somebody first. Course they'd need to be locked since no atmosians would ever leave their department unattended.


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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby terranaut » Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:58 am #501240

cedarbridge wrote:
RG4ORDR wrote:There still isn't really a good reason to say that the Warden can't do this. The only complaint that it's considered power/metagaming because you're trying to intentionally deny antags from getting sweet loot.
Hell if you want to go the distance, make guncages to put the weapons into, so you need to popup a menu after clicking on it to get access. Course they'd need to be locked since no armory would ever leave weapon cages unlocked.

There's no reason to say the atmos techs can't put manual valves on the plasma line at roundstart. The only complaint that its considered power/metagaming because you're trying to intentionally deny AIs from getting sweet plasma fires.
Hell, if you want to go the distance, make AIs unable to interact with the plasma lines without telling somebody first. Course they'd need to be locked since no atmosians would ever leave their department unattended.

Doing this completely denies an AI access to full and proper atmos shenanigans save they get an Engiborg that can do piping or a shell, two factors completely out of the AIs control
If the warden puts all the guns in a locker you can still steal them just as easily as traitor.
It's not a good argument.
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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:50 am #501244

terranaut wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
RG4ORDR wrote:There still isn't really a good reason to say that the Warden can't do this. The only complaint that it's considered power/metagaming because you're trying to intentionally deny antags from getting sweet loot.
Hell if you want to go the distance, make guncages to put the weapons into, so you need to popup a menu after clicking on it to get access. Course they'd need to be locked since no armory would ever leave weapon cages unlocked.

There's no reason to say the atmos techs can't put manual valves on the plasma line at roundstart. The only complaint that its considered power/metagaming because you're trying to intentionally deny AIs from getting sweet plasma fires.
Hell, if you want to go the distance, make AIs unable to interact with the plasma lines without telling somebody first. Course they'd need to be locked since no atmosians would ever leave their department unattended.

Doing this completely denies an AI access to full and proper atmos shenanigans save they get an Engiborg that can do piping or a shell, two factors completely out of the AIs control
If the warden puts all the guns in a locker you can still steal them just as easily as traitor.
It's not a good argument.


There is no atmos shenanigans an AI can get up to with the flooding plasma pipes without a borg's help, except maybe the incinerator turbine on some maps.
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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby BeeSting12 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:52 pm #501258

I don't see an issue with reinforcing the armory in any way the warden pleases, so long as the guns don't leave the armory. Shove them in a duffelbag within a locker but leave that locker in the armory. In a way, it's a fun project to keep the warden from getting bored, just as engineers are allowed to build autism forts and optimize the supermatter to the best of their abilities.

The only way I see armory reinforcement as powergaming is when they take the guns out of the armory and hide them in a depowered disposal unit or something. Other than that, it's common sense to do something like that on code blue.
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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby lmwevil » Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:48 pm #501272

BeeSting12 wrote:I don't see an issue with reinforcing the armory in any way the warden pleases, so long as the guns don't leave the armory. Shove them in a duffelbag within a locker but leave that locker in the armory. In a way, it's a fun project to keep the warden from getting bored, just as engineers are allowed to build autism forts and optimize the supermatter to the best of their abilities.

The only way I see armory reinforcement as powergaming is when they take the guns out of the armory and hide them in a depowered disposal unit or something. Other than that, it's common sense to do something like that on code blue.



I think if it was say, announced extended there'd be a reason. This rule is an antique and any amount of securing the Warden does can be beaten by anyone with a toolbelt and insulated gloves.


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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby PKPenguin321 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:58 pm #501275

lmwevil wrote:any amount of securing the Warden does can be beaten by anyone with a toolbelt and insulated gloves.

Well, that and flash protection, a fire-axe tier weapon/emag/stolen ID to get through sec barriers and lockers, enough time to get through r-walls on certain routes (or a willingness to run through the main brig section)... The reason you don't see this kind of thing is because of this rule. Again, it's easy to see a lack of this behavior and say "why do we have this rule???" if you were never there to see how the rule killed that behavior in the first place.
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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby cedarbridge » Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:04 pm #501277

terranaut wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
RG4ORDR wrote:There still isn't really a good reason to say that the Warden can't do this. The only complaint that it's considered power/metagaming because you're trying to intentionally deny antags from getting sweet loot.
Hell if you want to go the distance, make guncages to put the weapons into, so you need to popup a menu after clicking on it to get access. Course they'd need to be locked since no armory would ever leave weapon cages unlocked.

There's no reason to say the atmos techs can't put manual valves on the plasma line at roundstart. The only complaint that its considered power/metagaming because you're trying to intentionally deny AIs from getting sweet plasma fires.
Hell, if you want to go the distance, make AIs unable to interact with the plasma lines without telling somebody first. Course they'd need to be locked since no atmosians would ever leave their department unattended.

Doing this completely denies an AI access to full and proper atmos shenanigans save they get an Engiborg that can do piping or a shell, two factors completely out of the AIs control
If the warden puts all the guns in a locker you can still steal them just as easily as traitor.
It's not a good argument.

Both are idiotic attempts at "antag proofing" the station ahead of the reveal of any such antag existing. Both stunts exist for the same reason and go about it in a similar way. That the AI/Borgs have a different route to take to subverting one attempted metagaming than a traitor has to do to overcome the second does not make either case less stupid. All station maps, but especially those that we've kept around for the longest like Box and Meta, are designed to fail. That is, they're designed with intentional flaws that allow breaches, sneaking about and general failures that cause bad things to happen or facilitate disaster. Setting out at roundstart to subvert that is against the spirit in which the game is meant. There is no reason to do any of this save for the intent to fuck over antags that you have not actually determined exist in the round and to pre-deny conflict.

Would you be ok with the CMO spacing their hypospray at roundstart just because there's a non-zero chance that there could be a traitor in any number of potential rounds that might want to steal it as an objective? If not, then please explain why one case of pre-reveal antagfuckery is ok but others are not.

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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby Dr_bee » Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:53 pm #501288

cedarbridge wrote:
terranaut wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
RG4ORDR wrote:There still isn't really a good reason to say that the Warden can't do this. The only complaint that it's considered power/metagaming because you're trying to intentionally deny antags from getting sweet loot.
Hell if you want to go the distance, make guncages to put the weapons into, so you need to popup a menu after clicking on it to get access. Course they'd need to be locked since no armory would ever leave weapon cages unlocked.

There's no reason to say the atmos techs can't put manual valves on the plasma line at roundstart. The only complaint that its considered power/metagaming because you're trying to intentionally deny AIs from getting sweet plasma fires.
Hell, if you want to go the distance, make AIs unable to interact with the plasma lines without telling somebody first. Course they'd need to be locked since no atmosians would ever leave their department unattended.

Doing this completely denies an AI access to full and proper atmos shenanigans save they get an Engiborg that can do piping or a shell, two factors completely out of the AIs control
If the warden puts all the guns in a locker you can still steal them just as easily as traitor.
It's not a good argument.

Both are idiotic attempts at "antag proofing" the station ahead of the reveal of any such antag existing. Both stunts exist for the same reason and go about it in a similar way. That the AI/Borgs have a different route to take to subverting one attempted metagaming than a traitor has to do to overcome the second does not make either case less stupid. All station maps, but especially those that we've kept around for the longest like Box and Meta, are designed to fail. That is, they're designed with intentional flaws that allow breaches, sneaking about and general failures that cause bad things to happen or facilitate disaster. Setting out at roundstart to subvert that is against the spirit in which the game is meant. There is no reason to do any of this save for the intent to fuck over antags that you have not actually determined exist in the round and to pre-deny conflict.

Would you be ok with the CMO spacing their hypospray at roundstart just because there's a non-zero chance that there could be a traitor in any number of potential rounds that might want to steal it as an objective? If not, then please explain why one case of pre-reveal antagfuckery is ok but others are not.


The biggiest difference I see is that it isnt an atmos techs job to fuck over the AI, but it is the wardens job to prevent the armory from being robbed. You have this case of do your job but not too much because antags might have to actually work.

It is an inconsistency, the wardens job is security but they arent allowed to secure a place to their liking because of OOC reasons. managing the armory is literally half their job and they are hamstrung by policy that babies antags who dont need the help.

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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby cedarbridge » Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:38 pm #501300

Dr_bee wrote:The biggiest difference I see is that it isnt an atmos techs job to fuck over the AI, but it is the wardens job to prevent the armory from being robbed. You have this case of do your job but not too much because antags might have to actually work.

It is an inconsistency, the wardens job is security but they arent allowed to secure a place to their liking because of OOC reasons. managing the armory is literally half their job and they are hamstrung by policy that babies antags who dont need the help.


I'm not sure its asking too much for the warden to "secure the place to their liking" while actually keeping the place in meaningful existence. An armory without weapons isn't really an armory. Its a room where people just presume an armory once existed. The only reason a warden should ever have all of the weapons crammed into a locker at his side is for transport to somewhere or to make them easier to get en masse to where they're otherwise needed. Phrasing it as "antags might have to actually work" or "babies antags who don't need the help" is just an escalation to absurdity. The armory isn't public access. Even breaches from space aren't free. There's a motion sensor camera that screams at the AI every time somebody even breathes near it. Interior access requires passing at least three doors and a beepsky through open and obvious view of most of the security department and the brig. The way you put it makes it sound like any retard with a multitool can just waltz in unnoticed and uncontested and thus the warden needs to take all of those weapons from their R-walled fortress and stuff them in a box under his desk.

This just sounds like "we really need our antags to powergame harder so to make that happen we'll let sec pre-powergame the antags."

Its dumb. This thread is dumb.

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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby BeeSting12 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:26 pm #501306

Within the limits of the armory though, the warden should be able to do what he wants.
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Re: Let wardens secure the armory how they want to

Postby cedarbridge » Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:09 pm #501312

BeeSting12 wrote:Within the limits of the armory though, the warden should be able to do what he wants.

There is no rule 4 for warden powergaming.

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