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Gateway

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wesoda25
 
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Gateway

Postby wesoda25 » Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:07 am #501346

Disable gateway or limit it to announced extended. Fucking awesome how a lot of space loot is removed and then we re-enable powergamer: the quest. Literally rewards players for not contributing to the round by fucking off into the gateway, then returning with their OP loot that took 0 effort to acquire since half of the NPCs are broken. Then, things get even better when they start to self antag with said loot.

Alternatively limiting loot to cosmetic gear wouldn’t be all bad. But thats more code related not config.
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Re: Gateway

Postby Malkraz » Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:11 am #501347

gayway
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Re: Gateway

Postby Ghilker » Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:28 am #501389

Isn't the gayway disabled?

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Re: Gateway

Postby Anuv » Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:09 pm #501393

Absolutely 100% needs to be extended only. Have witnessed 75% of the station leaving only for it to end up as nuke ops. People rush AA and loot the armory when they realize there's a gateway map. During traitor rounds it's too easy to get L6/tons of guns/OP armor.
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Re: Gateway

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:58 pm #501394

limit them to low pop only

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Re: Gateway

Postby Shadowflame909 » Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:02 pm #501396

Limit the gateway to High-Pop only.

Too many players too little content. Science currently only has one job available (This being xenobiology) and Assistants will grief out the arse when boredom arises.

What I say is, 60+ deserves some dangerous population control like the gateway.
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Re: Gateway

Postby Anuv » Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:21 pm #501402

It's perfect for high pop extended. Arm up and get tech and everyone can go ham together. It's hard enough to get objectives done when your target fucks off to explore space or lavaland, now you have to scour gateway maps and hope they're there.
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Doritos
 
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Re: Gateway

Postby Doritos » Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:28 pm #501404

make the normal game fun then lol
lol

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Re: Gateway

Postby MMMiracles » Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:21 pm #501407

if the gateway is actually coming back into rounds without admin intervention then i'll look into some balancing concerns with the shittier ones.
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Re: Gateway

Postby Shadowflame909 » Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:56 pm #501410

I think the best way to balance the gateway is to have the ruins take so long and have so many obstacles that by the time you get whatever balance breaking reward that made you want to risk your life, the crew already has things much worse.

Like for example, spending an hour in the gateway to become an antag via the wishgranter. Only to realize that medbay can now make romerol zombies thanks to advanced surgery, and robotics already has that phazon with rocket launchers built.

A good obstacle would most likely be player controlled, as the worst obstacle for thy players is a player themselves trying to kill them.
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Spoiler:
ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


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Re: Gateway

Postby Ayy Lemoh » Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:16 pm #501424

Unrelated post however it's my only way:

MMMiracles, how the fuck do I contact you?

Anyways, the gateway may inspire some fixes so downstreams can enjoy them further if we decide OH GOD NO NOT THIS SHIT

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Re: Gateway

Postby Cobby » Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:39 pm #501432

If it's not randomized it will always be gamed or so useless most people will hop in / hop out.

If you haven't changed anything I don't see why the issues previously would magically disappear lol.
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Re: Gateway

Postby NecromancerAnne » Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:52 am #501458

Some of the gateway missions seem pretty fun though but gosh is there some fucking ridiculous loot in them. Like, you could have a fairly fun adventure through some of them without the utterly ridiculous shit you can get.

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Re: Gateway

Postby Denton » Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:58 am #501499

I only see two ways to fix away missions, either remove the good loot (nobody will run them) or randomize their layout (lots of work).
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Re: Gateway

Postby NecromancerAnne » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:19 pm #501517

That's not QUITE true. There is a an inbetween you can reach with the loot that doesn't make it too excessive while still being good. Like, for instance, most of the shit out of space is pretty tame as far as loot goes. Only the grenade launcher is truly excessive to me. Anything you can get crew side can beat it/match it (see: combat shotgun, stun batons).

Snowdin is one of the better way missions but it is also one of the worst offenders for loot, giving an immense quantity of 30 damage 50 block normal sized swords off the templars, and a ton of wizard/nukie gear for *some* reason. Hiding shit behind swarms of simple mobs isn't good enough. Simple mobs can be cheesed hard.

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Re: Gateway

Postby imsxz » Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:46 pm #501553

you can have interesting/worthwhile loot that isnt good for murdering people.

The issue is that it's tough to think of lots of unique interesting stuff while still making sure theyre not too cancer.

stuff like books of forcewall/knock are pretty cool and nobody would be too upset about someone running around with one (some gateways already have that, dont get any ideas). I think abductor tools could be cool, as it's useful for plenty and isnt the type of thing that people get murderboned by.

Meanwhile we have caves.dmm which has a slaughter demon heart, mjolnir, and a scroll of plasma fist. All interesting stuff no doubt but it's a recipe to upset a large amount of people when a murderer or validhunter gets it.

tl;dr there is a middle ground for good worthwhile gateway loot while not being cancer and generally being a good addition to the game, but theres probably nobody that wants to think of and code that loot.
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Re: Gateway

Postby Shadowflame909 » Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:28 am #501616

What if we made people fight an immortal ash-drake for an hour as a plasma-man for the plasma fist

Bam. Now it's technically balanced enough to be on par with normal crew equipment.
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Spoiler:
ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


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Re: Gateway

Postby Detective Google » Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:02 am #501717

I think it's a pretty simple matter that gateway shouldn't be used unless an admin is willing to tweak it or someone goes through and finishes half the gateway maps and goes on a balancing pass on the rest.

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Re: Gateway

Postby Atlanta-Ned » Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:16 am #501722

Detective Google wrote:I think it's a pretty simple matter that gateway shouldn't be used unless an admin is willing to tweak it or someone goes through and finishes half the gateway maps and goes on a balancing pass on the rest.


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Re: Gateway

Postby Grazyn » Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:09 pm #501772

I thought away missions like snowdin were simply moved to VR. No need for the gateway, admins can just spawn it if they need it for some "the Mist"-like event.

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Re: Gateway

Postby wesoda25 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:34 pm #501787

VR is gone
Spoiler:
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Re: Gateway

Postby Timonk » Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:26 pm #501794

How does the wishgranter work?

Also maybe make it so that you can only enter the gateway with a certain implant that is really expensive
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Re: Gateway

Postby Detective Google » Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:59 am #501865

Timonk wrote:How does the wishgranter work?

Also maybe make it so that you can only enter the gateway with a certain implant that is really expensive


wish granter has a chance to give you free antag with a hijack objective and a bunch of genetics powers.

And perhaps exile implants could be used more, you need an exile implant to go through the gate way at all, and it doesn't allow you to go back- once you're in the gateway you're commited kind of thing, (although that's kinda broken by the strategy of just bringing a quantum pad through which is what I always do when admemes spawn gateway missions.)

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Re: Gateway

Postby Timonk » Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:01 am #501875

Yea I understood the free antag part, but how does it work? Like what do you have to do to get the antag
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Re: Gateway

Postby Shadowflame909 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:42 am #501879

Fight at least 100+ faithless simple mobs to reach the end, and if your the first person to get there. You use the wish-granter.
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Spoiler:
ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.


BebeYoshi wrote:Saltyflame909


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Re: Gateway

Postby Dr_bee » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:59 am #501919

Shadowflame909 wrote:Fight at least 100+ faithless simple mobs to reach the end, and if your the first person to get there. You use the wish-granter.


Second person. You forget the meat grinder.

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Re: Gateway

Postby Timonk » Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:59 pm #501953

Shadowflame909 wrote:Fight at least 100+ faithless simple mobs to reach the end, and if your the first person to get there. You use the wish-granter.

How do I use it
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Re: Gateway

Postby Ayy Lemoh » Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:28 pm #501964

Timonk wrote:
Shadowflame909 wrote:Fight at least 100+ faithless simple mobs to reach the end, and if your the first person to get there. You use the wish-granter.

How do I use it

You sacrifice some dumbass/willing volunteer to the meatgrinder. I think he has to click it or be thrown into it. If all else fails then try killing the guy before doing everything you attempted again. Better yet, ask an away mission veteran. I'm pretty sure the sacrifice has to be sentient btw.

If all of you want to live then GG none of you are getting anything then.

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Re: Gateway

Postby Qbmax32 » Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:09 am #502183

Gateway never should have been reenabled with its current issues. It creates more headaches and trouble then it's worth and just encourages people to abandon the station in search of easily cheeseable powergamer loot.

It either needs to be reworked entirely to change what the loot is or change the difficulty of the away missions OR it just needs to be turned off entirely. You could just replace the gateway with something else similar that doesn't encourage as much shittery as the gateway does to keep the same underlying mechanic without encouraging Dante Smith 2.0.
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Re: Gateway

Postby Dr_bee » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:31 pm #502224

Qbmax32 wrote:Gateway never should have been reenabled with its current issues. It creates more headaches and trouble then it's worth and just encourages people to abandon the station in search of easily cheeseable powergamer loot.

It either needs to be reworked entirely to change what the loot is or change the difficulty of the away missions OR it just needs to be turned off entirely. You could just replace the gateway with something else similar that doesn't encourage as much shittery as the gateway does to keep the same underlying mechanic without encouraging Dante Smith 2.0.


How about away missions that are actually crew missions. Like building a lavaland base, or base on a special map.

The combat and loot focus needs to go. Or if there are combat based ones have them be wave defense or something. Something to involve more than combat.

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Re: Gateway

Postby Anuv » Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:20 am #502364

10 minutes into the shift: wow I can't wait to try and get my target when they're with the powergaming crew here

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Re: Gateway

Postby Shadowflame909 » Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:34 am #502401

The solution to this is to make stronger gateway ruins so your target can die brutally with a 2% chance of surviving after sacrificing their fellow crew-member.

Isn't that why most powerful gateway ruins have the gateway teleported all the way to the end?
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Spoiler:
ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.


BebeYoshi wrote:Saltyflame909


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Re: Gateway

Postby terranaut » Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:57 pm #502409

make gateways announced extended only

easy fix
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Re: Gateway

Postby Cobby » Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:42 pm #502430

Dr_bee wrote:
Qbmax32 wrote:Gateway never should have been reenabled with its current issues. It creates more headaches and trouble then it's worth and just encourages people to abandon the station in search of easily cheeseable powergamer loot.

It either needs to be reworked entirely to change what the loot is or change the difficulty of the away missions OR it just needs to be turned off entirely. You could just replace the gateway with something else similar that doesn't encourage as much shittery as the gateway does to keep the same underlying mechanic without encouraging Dante Smith 2.0.


How about away missions that are actually crew missions. Like building a lavaland base, or base on a special map.

The combat and loot focus needs to go. Or if there are combat based ones have them be wave defense or something. Something to involve more than combat.


They don't get attendance if they don't give loot. Whether or not that's a bad thing is well... *shrug*

This is why it should be randomized imo, that way you won't ever know if there's going to be something good inside without entering and looking at your surroundings for a minute.
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Re: Gateway

Postby Screemonster » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:21 pm #502771

Anuv wrote:10 minutes into the shift: wow I can't wait to try and get my target when they're with the powergaming crew here

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it's a shame being stranded on the other side of the gateway doesn't count otherwise "acquire bomb, throw bomb through gate"

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Re: Gateway

Postby NoxVS » Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:57 pm #502792

One problem with them is it feels like instead of skill or supplies all they take is meta knowledge. There’s this one gateway map that I was fucking around with on lowpop Sybil and it turns out there is a room hidden away in the corner of the map with magic stuff inside. There is no way to find this unless you know it exists and actively look for it. Maps definitely need rebalancing but I have no clue how to do anything involving code so I have no way to.
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Re: Gateway

Postby MMMiracles » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:02 pm #502807

Screemonster wrote:it's a shame being stranded on the other side of the gateway doesn't count otherwise "acquire bomb, throw bomb through gate"


that seemed like a neat idea so here you go
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Re: Gateway

Postby Mickyan » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:04 am #502819

I think the gate being timelocked and automatically turning on is a huge mistake for many of the reasons mentioned in this thread

If it took some real effort to activate (like for example, acquire the coordinates from a space ruin) it would make it a rare event and something that players can't reliably wait for every round
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Re: Gateway

Postby WarbossLincoln » Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:36 am #502822

Add some ghost roles to the gateway. Make them fight player controlled mobs who already have the loot they're trying to steal. Hard code something that prevents the ghost spawn mobs from ever leaving a gateway level.
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Re: Gateway

Postby Cobby » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:43 pm #503049

WarbossLincoln wrote:Hard code something that prevents the ghost spawn mobs from ever leaving a gateway level.


It's actually already implemented as the exile implant!

The academy wizard spawn has this.
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Re: Gateway

Postby deedubya » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:37 am #503525

"Easy" solution: Make it so that Gateway is only enabled on 50+ players or green alert round. Amend gateway policy so that if the gateway is enabled and the captain/hop don't flag replacement jobs for the people that go off on the gateway mission, they should get a bwoinking, as it's technically their responsibility to make sure the station is adequately staffed. Those would solve the "understaffed station" issues that typically happen with the gateway.

As for the powergamer loot...if it's high pop or greenshift, what's the issue? By the time people get back from the gateway, a murderboner/validhunter would get absolutely memed on by a 50+ player manifest, and a greenshift would just get the offending player bwoinked out of existence. If you don't have anything cool in the gateway missions, nobody's going to give enough of a shit to run them.
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Re: Gateway

Postby SkeletalElite » Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:08 pm #503559

deedubya wrote:"Easy" solution: Make it so that Gateway is only enabled on 50+ players or green alert round. Amend gateway policy so that if the gateway is enabled and the captain/hop don't flag replacement jobs for the people that go off on the gateway mission, they should get a bwoinking, as it's technically their responsibility to make sure the station is adequately staffed. Those would solve the "understaffed station" issues that typically happen with the gateway.

As for the powergamer loot...if it's high pop or greenshift, what's the issue? By the time people get back from the gateway, a murderboner/validhunter would get absolutely memed on by a 50+ player manifest, and a greenshift would just get the offending player bwoinked out of existence. If you don't have anything cool in the gateway missions, nobody's going to give enough of a shit to run them.


Bwoinking the Captain/HoP because too many people decided they're bored and left the station is the worst idea I've ever heard.

Imagine being the captain and being on the bridge and just suddenly getting bwoinked, "why did you let people into the gateway"

"I didnt let anyone into the gateway wtf are you talking about they just law 2d the Ai and walked in"

"Thats it you're captain jobbanned"

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Re: Gateway

Postby deedubya » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:20 pm #503654

SkeletalElite wrote:
deedubya wrote:"Easy" solution: Make it so that Gateway is only enabled on 50+ players or green alert round. Amend gateway policy so that if the gateway is enabled and the captain/hop don't flag replacement jobs for the people that go off on the gateway mission, they should get a bwoinking, as it's technically their responsibility to make sure the station is adequately staffed. Those would solve the "understaffed station" issues that typically happen with the gateway.

As for the powergamer loot...if it's high pop or greenshift, what's the issue? By the time people get back from the gateway, a murderboner/validhunter would get absolutely memed on by a 50+ player manifest, and a greenshift would just get the offending player bwoinked out of existence. If you don't have anything cool in the gateway missions, nobody's going to give enough of a shit to run them.


Bwoinking the Captain/HoP because too many people decided they're bored and left the station is the worst idea I've ever heard.

Imagine being the captain and being on the bridge and just suddenly getting bwoinked, "why did you let people into the gateway"

"I didnt let anyone into the gateway wtf are you talking about they just law 2d the Ai and walked in"

"Thats it you're captain jobbanned"

Every gateway field trip I've seen has been organized by a head of staff. If you can't be bothered to spend a few minutes on an ID console flagging the missing jobs before you take half the station and fuck off on your lootquest, you deserve at least a warning.
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Re: Gateway

Postby Screemonster » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:38 pm #503677

imagine being HoS and someone commits a crime and gets away because you didn't even notice and you get bwoinked at the end of the round for doing a bad job as a result

punishing people for the actions of other people is and always will be shit

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Re: Gateway

Postby SaveVatznick » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:04 am #503726

Alright, I thought about this for a bit, and I wonder if this solution might help:

You can only enter the gateway if you have a specific implant. We can re-brand Exile implants, or whatever, but the point is that the crew, namely the heads or higher-ups, control a certain amount (maybe 3 or 4) Gateway implants, which can be freely given or self-consumed to allow you to move through the gateway and do whatever bullshit is on the other side. You'd obviously be able to order more from cargo at a high to moderate cost. I think that this change would both drive on-station conflict, by people trying to negotiate or steal the implants, and help the problem of the Gateway derailing rounds by limiting the number of people who can go on a quest for big loot every round, unless the whole station makes an effort via cargo to make it accessible. It would also stop people from simply tiding around until a time-locked gateway opens, because if they act like big shitters, assuming the Heads still have control of the station as a whole, they can deny grayshits access to a chance to hunt for big meme gear.

This solution also has multiple balancing levers. The number of initial implants on station. The price, and amount of extra implants that can arrive in Cargo. The place where the implants spawn. All this, in addition to the conditions of the Gateway activating. I feel like it'd put things in the hands of the crew.

I wonder if this solution, combined with better conditions for gateway activation (time-gating doesn't seem right, other people have posted good seeds of ideas), could help curb the big issue of the Gateway, which is, if people know it's coming, it derails the entire round. I think this "implants" solution could mitigate the tendencies of our playerbase and at least re-direct in a way that negotiation, or at least on-station conflict, is facilitated by the Gateway, as opposed to the current "Everyone just fucks off, all antags are screwed, people who are on station deal with a ghost town".

Again, I'm just spitballing. In its current state, with the current balance of Gateway maps, I firmly agree that it belongs solely in admin hands. I'm not even sure if having a "Gateway" as a focal point of gameplay is healthy for the game. But I think my suggest is at least a start, if yall decide you want to keep the Gateway.
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Re: Gateway

Postby Shadowflame909 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:58 am #503729

I probably already said this. But I think having burnt out chucklefucks in the gateway rather than being shitters to security and genuinely toeing the line of escalation because they're bored and looking for some entertainment that they no longer receive from SS13 is a good thing.

Some people may disagree with "But if they're burnt out they should just leave and take a break." Sadly people don't think like this. Like how an addicted person doesn't realize they have an addiction while they're partaking in whatever their addiction is. The break will probably be a Ban.

But ultimately because I'm delving into a much deeper rabbit hole. To keep things simple, TLDR: Burnt out players would do better killed off by off-station syndicate agents rather than harassing the players that still find some enjoyment in /tg/station.

I certainly don't like getting into escalation with asshats because they find it funny to rob me of an item I have in my hand at roundstart.
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Re: Gateway

Postby Ayy Lemoh » Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:02 am #503753

SaveVatznick wrote:This solution also has multiple balancing levers. The number of initial implants on station. The price, and amount of extra implants that can arrive in Cargo. The place where the implants spawn. All this, in addition to the conditions of the Gateway activating. I feel like it'd put things in the hands of the crew.

I don't think entering the gateway should be a test of how fast were you able to rush the roundstart implants. God forbid if people start going "no you fucking suck at this game. I dont even know who you are. we're giving it to most robust player on the server right now"

If implants cost more than 5k then I imagine you aren't getting any unless you can be enough of a complete dickhead in cargo just long enough before you get arrested/killed by cargo techs/kicked out/someone reverts your purchase and orders random shit to spite you/etc.

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Re: Gateway

Postby Arianya » Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:25 am #503760

Shadowflame909 wrote:I probably already said this. But I think having burnt out chucklefucks in the gateway rather than being shitters to security and genuinely toeing the line of escalation because they're bored and looking for some entertainment that they no longer receive from SS13 is a good thing.

Some people may disagree with "But if they're burnt out they should just leave and take a break." Sadly people don't think like this. Like how an addicted person doesn't realize they have an addiction while they're partaking in whatever their addiction is. The break will probably be a Ban.

But ultimately because I'm delving into a much deeper rabbit hole. To keep things simple, TLDR: Burnt out players would do better killed off by off-station syndicate agents rather than harassing the players that still find some enjoyment in /tg/station.

I certainly don't like getting into escalation with asshats because they find it funny to rob me of an item I have in my hand at roundstart.


This theory makes a little bit of sense till you remember those same burnt out players come back with syndicate gear/wizard spells/whatever on station and antagonize people to try and get an excuse to use their shiny toys.
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Re: Gateway

Postby NoxVS » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:50 pm #503779

Imagine seeing players leave the station for the gateway because its more fun and thinking the solution is to just remove the fun content
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Re: Gateway

Postby Shadowflame909 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:14 pm #503780

Arianya wrote:
Shadowflame909 wrote:TLDR: Burnt out players would do better killed off by off-station syndicate agents rather than harassing the players that still find some enjoyment in /tg/station.

I certainly don't like getting into escalation with asshats because they find it funny to rob me of an item I have in my hand at roundstart.


This theory makes a little bit of sense till you remember those same burnt out players come back with syndicate gear/wizard spells/whatever on station and antagonize people to try and get an excuse to use their shiny toys.


Fair. Then like all good loot. We should make it extremely hard to get.

Mining I would say is a good example of this. Only a handful of players can actively kill megafauna since they're so hard now. Ex: Kraso, Asher Clarke, Lexia Black

While the rest can kill tendrils, but hope they don't get stunned by a watcher and then legionified.

Yup. Mining is a pretty good example of good loot at an extremely hard cost I would say.
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Spoiler:
ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.


BebeYoshi wrote:Saltyflame909


Cobby wrote:The trash bin... have you lost your way home anon?

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