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Remove Sextended from Normal Rotation

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Ty the Smonk
 
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Remove Sextended from Normal Rotation

Postby Ty the Smonk » Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:13 pm #504031

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/45309 I'm gonna reference my PR here because a lot of discussion for and against sextended was there and it stated my actual reasoning behind it. If anything comes out of this I would want it to be normal extended at least getting a higher chance of happening, announced extended and secret extended feel very different atmosphere wise and I barely see announced, I have seen it one time and that is it.



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Re: Remove Sextended from Normal Rotation

Postby confused rock » Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:23 pm #504032

The flaw with secret extended is that the game is brainlessly easy without antags. we should be looking at those rounds as ways to fix the fact that the game is too focused on getting valids because there's nothing else to do, instead of as the thing we need to remove.
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Re: Remove Sextended from Normal Rotation

Postby skoglol » Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:19 pm #504051

As I said in the PR, roll secret extended % into normal extended and disable it in config.

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Re: Remove Sextended from Normal Rotation

Postby Arianya » Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:34 pm #504058

https://tgstation13.org/tgdb/irvpolltally.php?id=203

Fourth most popular mode as of our last poll, which while a little long in the tooth isn't *that* distant in the past. Beating out several modes with antagonists, including cult and revs.

Announced extended is not the same mood as secret extended and frankly it doesn't harm the game to have a quiet round once in a blue moon - it offers admins a way to run the odd event on the sly, and besides which discourages/outs people who go all validhunty every round without any real prompting.
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Re: Remove Sextended from Normal Rotation

Postby PKPenguin321 » Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:59 pm #504065

Secret extended >>> Announced extended
Announced extended is just "okay AI keep mashing the shuttle call button until it starts working"
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Re: Remove Sextended from Normal Rotation

Postby SkeletalElite » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:25 pm #504088

PKPenguin321 wrote:Secret extended >>> Announced extended
Announced extended is just "okay AI keep mashing the shuttle call button until it starts working"



If people are calling the shuttle as soon as they can on announced extended, maybe it's not because announced extended is bad, but because people don't want to play extended in general.

At least if its announced people can suicide roundstart and not miss out on anything.

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Re: Remove Sextended from Normal Rotation

Postby PKPenguin321 » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:31 pm #504090

SkeletalElite wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:Secret extended >>> Announced extended
Announced extended is just "okay AI keep mashing the shuttle call button until it starts working"



If people are calling the shuttle as soon as they can on announced extended, maybe it's not because announced extended is bad, but because people don't want to play extended in general.

If this is your angle, then call for the removal of extended in general, not just secret extended
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Re: Remove Sextended from Normal Rotation

Postby Malkraz » Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:10 am #504099

Extended should be handled through a vote and not on rotation, I post for the 8th time
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Franklin Khan says, " Well I know who I'm metagrudging from now on "
Istoprocent: You and Rock Steele definitely metabuddies, proving metacomms will take time but eventually people will figure it out.
Declan Cooper asks, " does rock steel have autism? "
Erik489: Malkraz, I gotta ask, and please be honest. Do you metacomm with Rock Steel?
Lumbermancer: also rock should be killed every round
Willy Willee says, " And he kept spam-tabling me, while his metafriend came over "
ATHATH: Rock Steel, I fucking hate you with a passion. I was alive on the station for less than a minute, you absolute cunt you CREMATING ASSHOLE I GENUINELY *HATE* YOU
Adam Karlsson says, " i just want rock " Shaun McFall says, " you know you'll get harshly punished for this right " Adam Karlsson says, " oh i know "
Aidan Duncan says, " Once again, Rock Steel is the fucking worst person on the station "
Twaticus: malk i hate you why do you ruin everything
Alijah Petrov says, " Actually then, im just gonna start robusting rock steel every time i see him "
Adolph Weinstein says, " I like how we have a wizard onboard, and the only person causing shit is Rock "
[Common] Most Likely Malfunction states, " BORG RETURN TO THE CLONEER AND ISPOSE OF ROCK STEELS BODY. "
Dee Dubya: the fact that Rock Steel hasn't been permabanned is proof enough of how low RP /tg/station really is
hanna banana: Rock Steel pushes me over in game and steals my insuls i get so mad i start screaming

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Re: Remove Sextended from Normal Rotation

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:20 am #504111

The goal of the game isn't to hunt the antag.
If you're complaining when there's no antags to hunt and refuse to participate when there are no antags, you're playing the wrong game.
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Re: Remove Sextended from Normal Rotation

Postby wesoda25 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:49 am #504117

Read my posts in pr
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Re: Remove Sextended from Normal Rotation

Postby John_Gobbel » Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:49 am #504118

It turns out that the game is a lot of fun without antags if you know how to do gimmicks and create interesting conflict that isn't (hur dur I'ma greytide; hur dur, I'ma shitsec; or hur dur, I'ma self-antag)

Just because some brainlets believe that fighting/dealing with antagonists is all thee is to a game doesn't mean it's the truth and there is plenty of mileage to gain from extended rounds if people put some effort into doing them.

In fact with so many people trying to sabotage rounds just because it's on extended, maybe secret extended should be the only one in the list?

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Re: Remove Sextended from Normal Rotation

Postby Malkraz » Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:44 am #504125

the above posts are exactly why you put it up to a vote so extended is only played when people want it and those who don't have fucked off
you're always going to get worse results forcing people who don't want extended into extended than you do with regular rounds.
Image
Franklin Khan says, " Well I know who I'm metagrudging from now on "
Istoprocent: You and Rock Steele definitely metabuddies, proving metacomms will take time but eventually people will figure it out.
Declan Cooper asks, " does rock steel have autism? "
Erik489: Malkraz, I gotta ask, and please be honest. Do you metacomm with Rock Steel?
Lumbermancer: also rock should be killed every round
Willy Willee says, " And he kept spam-tabling me, while his metafriend came over "
ATHATH: Rock Steel, I fucking hate you with a passion. I was alive on the station for less than a minute, you absolute cunt you CREMATING ASSHOLE I GENUINELY *HATE* YOU
Adam Karlsson says, " i just want rock " Shaun McFall says, " you know you'll get harshly punished for this right " Adam Karlsson says, " oh i know "
Aidan Duncan says, " Once again, Rock Steel is the fucking worst person on the station "
Twaticus: malk i hate you why do you ruin everything
Alijah Petrov says, " Actually then, im just gonna start robusting rock steel every time i see him "
Adolph Weinstein says, " I like how we have a wizard onboard, and the only person causing shit is Rock "
[Common] Most Likely Malfunction states, " BORG RETURN TO THE CLONEER AND ISPOSE OF ROCK STEELS BODY. "
Dee Dubya: the fact that Rock Steel hasn't been permabanned is proof enough of how low RP /tg/station really is
hanna banana: Rock Steel pushes me over in game and steals my insuls i get so mad i start screaming

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Re: Remove Sextended from Normal Rotation

Postby Shadowflame909 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:09 am #504128

Malkraz wrote:the above posts are exactly why you put it up to a vote so extended is only played when people want it and those who don't have fucked off
you're always going to get worse results forcing people who don't want extended into extended than you do with regular rounds.
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Re: Remove Sextended from Normal Rotation

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:44 am #504132

you're always going to get worse results forcing people who don't want extended into extended than you do with regular rounds.

That's the magic of Secret Extended.

You don't know it is.

You're not being forced to play the game even though the mode is always Secret, why don't you just suicide when there isn't a War Ops announcement within the first 40 seconds?
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Re: Remove Sextended from Normal Rotation

Postby Malkraz » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:29 am #504140

You don't know, but you also didn't log on with the intention of doing (in the hypothetical's eyes) nothing for 2 hours. I think most people play SS13 because you're both playing whatever your role is and have that potential for "chaos in space", that's why we have gamemodes and antagonists to begin with. Sure many players enjoy occasional Extended rounds and there's absolutely nothing wrong with Extended in itself, but it can be a bummer when you logged on to have some chaotic fun only to find out it's sandbox time and nobody got to decide that.
Making extended a vote gives that power of choice to both the people who want Extended and the ones who don't, and I think Extended is distinct enough from the other gamemodes due to its sandbox nature that it warrants being treated differently than being another unknown in the rotation. You obviously don't want to know right off the bat that the "chaos in space" is specifically a cult this round, but maybe you also don't want to wait for an hour just to find out the "chaos in space" is lacking the chaos part.
Image
Franklin Khan says, " Well I know who I'm metagrudging from now on "
Istoprocent: You and Rock Steele definitely metabuddies, proving metacomms will take time but eventually people will figure it out.
Declan Cooper asks, " does rock steel have autism? "
Erik489: Malkraz, I gotta ask, and please be honest. Do you metacomm with Rock Steel?
Lumbermancer: also rock should be killed every round
Willy Willee says, " And he kept spam-tabling me, while his metafriend came over "
ATHATH: Rock Steel, I fucking hate you with a passion. I was alive on the station for less than a minute, you absolute cunt you CREMATING ASSHOLE I GENUINELY *HATE* YOU
Adam Karlsson says, " i just want rock " Shaun McFall says, " you know you'll get harshly punished for this right " Adam Karlsson says, " oh i know "
Aidan Duncan says, " Once again, Rock Steel is the fucking worst person on the station "
Twaticus: malk i hate you why do you ruin everything
Alijah Petrov says, " Actually then, im just gonna start robusting rock steel every time i see him "
Adolph Weinstein says, " I like how we have a wizard onboard, and the only person causing shit is Rock "
[Common] Most Likely Malfunction states, " BORG RETURN TO THE CLONEER AND ISPOSE OF ROCK STEELS BODY. "
Dee Dubya: the fact that Rock Steel hasn't been permabanned is proof enough of how low RP /tg/station really is
hanna banana: Rock Steel pushes me over in game and steals my insuls i get so mad i start screaming

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Re: Remove Sextended from Normal Rotation

Postby Cobby » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:41 am #504143

Most of the features are either

1) geared with the intention that it can be used [to kill baddies]
2) assumes there's a baddie that'll halt/hamper your progress

That's not to say you can't have fun without them, but it's not fun to build up for 30-40 minutes only to realize your work has no practical use for players when you could have been doing your cute gimmick or whatever.
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Re: Remove Sextended from Normal Rotation

Postby Arianya » Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:09 am #504153

I've said it once and I'll say it again - If you can only find enjoyment in the game by every round either being an antagonist or getting to slap one around, you are burnt out. Take a break. It is not a shameful thing, it's natural for anyone who plays the game long enough. You aren't going to reignite your passion by chasing the dragon.

A "vote for extended" is functionally just a removal of secret extended - you can't have a vote and have it be secret. Again, secret extended was the fourth most popular mode during the last vote, so there's clearly a disconnect here between the people claiming that sextended is the worst thing in the world and a waste of time and the people placing it that high in their votes
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Re: Remove Sextended from Normal Rotation

Postby NecromancerAnne » Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:40 pm #504189

I already stated in that PR, but secret extended also makes it impossible to effectively meta the round. We do not want people to be able to meta the round. Centcomm reports were nerfed for this reason. If you don't like secret extended that's unfortunate and hints to either a problem with how you play or a problem with the game as a whole.

I already see a problem of people validhunting all the antags and then going SSD when the station goes quiet and either the only antags left are presumably hiding or they're all dead. It's like coming over to kick in the sand castles at the play pen and then going home. It's not like they're breaking the rules but boy is that such a horrible way to play.

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Re: Remove Sextended from Normal Rotation

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:41 pm #504193

The importance of extended to breaking the meta is so important that downstream high RP servers, the ones with extended mode votes, do the *opposite* and will frequently put up the Extended announcement during an antag round just as often as extended rounds can generate a command report.
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Re: Remove Sextended from Normal Rotation

Postby WarbossLincoln » Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:12 pm #504252

will frequently put up the Extended announcement during an antag round


This would be neat to do here but I feel like it wouldn't work because announced extended on /tg/ is like 20% of people coming up with something to do, 40% suiciding, and 40% doing as much griefing and tiding as possible without crossing the line that gets them banned.
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Re: Remove Sextended from Normal Rotation

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:55 am #504338

funny how secret extended is one of those things that everyone "obviously hates" according to the forum goblins but consistently performs better than the forum goblins' favorite modes in polls.
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Re: Remove Sextended from Normal Rotation

Postby deedubya » Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:52 pm #504356

I'd sooner like to see announced extended get removed, honestly. All a confirmed greenshift does is cause mass suicide and a straight up greytide in most cases, followed by a QM """"""""accidentally"""""""" fucking up Tesla containment so that the shuttle can be called ASAP. At least during a blue shift, people still play out the round normally, rather than give up immediately and try to tide their way to AA. Are people really so thirsty for valids or antag rolls that they forgot how to play the game properly without forced conflict?

I'd suggest either removing announced extended, or implement the feature that has a chance of announcing extended during a traitor round. Additionally, have it so that midround antagonists have a 2x chance to spawn during extended(announced or secret) rounds, so that rounds don't drag on excessively long.
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Re: Remove Sextended from Normal Rotation

Postby W65 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:09 am #504661

I'm guessing secret extended falls flat for people who aren't interested in the paranoia aspect of the gameplay. I get the feeling that's supposed to be more prominent than it actually feels like it is to me. I personally don't consider it a wasted shift if there was no actual antagonist--normal rounds sometimes don't go to shit, and secret extended rounds often do. If a round's insufferably boring, I'll just quit and do something else whether I think there're traitors or not.

As far as regular extended: well, it's a just guarantee that things will go sideways eventually, which is what most rounds are anyhow. The "let anyone break into anywhere and do anything" idea is a little tiresome but I guess not actually problematic.

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Re: Remove Sextended from Normal Rotation

Postby Fatal » Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:58 am #504665

Extended is great for banning the bads, don't remove it

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Re: Remove Sextended from Normal Rotation

Postby wesoda25 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:21 pm #504688

WarbossLincoln wrote:
will frequently put up the Extended announcement during an antag round


This would be neat to do here but I feel like it wouldn't work because announced extended on /tg/ is like 20% of people coming up with something to do, 40% suiciding, and 40% doing as much griefing and tiding as possible without crossing the line that gets them banned.

It would fucking suck I only do projects those rounds and I don’t wanna start something just for there to be cult
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Re: Remove Sextended from Normal Rotation

Postby Calomel » Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:17 pm #504804

I feel like this shows that there are two clear and different groups here: The group that desires to have a clear objective and ending for a shift, and therefore consider extended a "nothing happens for 2 hours" shift,
and those who either like to do RP, thsoe who like to have gimmicks and have fun in tehir own way, and those whose roles have a lot of things to do (Science, botany, mining, engineering...).
Problem is with those jobs
that don't really have much to do on extended (Sec, Medical), who will find themeselves either waiting for a greytider starting fights or or starting it themselves, because otherwise they get to wait forever in Medical or try to do surgeries for fun (Which some don't know how to do, and they require other people to want to be operated on, plus there's only one operating bed), and Sec gets to explore the maint tunnels or be in their respective stations.
Of course they can decide to RP/Gimmick/mingle with other people, but that is ignoring the fact that some jobs are not as entertaining to be in extended.

Whether group you are in, I think both groups will benefit to either changes that raise their entertainment value in extended, or the crew to try to involve these in their gimmicks/whatever. Maybe having no secret extended can signal people better that this shift, you're supposed to build your own fun instead of expecting an antag to do it for you. my apologies for being long winded.
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Re: Remove Sextended from Normal Rotation

Postby skoglol » Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:42 pm #504818

Calomel wrote:I feel like this shows that there are two clear and different groups here: The group that desires to have a clear objective and ending for a shift, and therefore consider extended a "nothing happens for 2 hours" shift,
and those who either like to do RP, thsoe who like to have gimmicks and have fun in tehir own way, and those whose roles have a lot of things to do (Science, botany, mining, engineering...).
Problem is with those jobs
that don't really have much to do on extended (Sec, Medical), who will find themeselves either waiting for a greytider starting fights or or starting it themselves, because otherwise they get to wait forever in Medical or try to do surgeries for fun (Which some don't know how to do, and they require other people to want to be operated on, plus there's only one operating bed), and Sec gets to explore the maint tunnels or be in their respective stations.
Of course they can decide to RP/Gimmick/mingle with other people, but that is ignoring the fact that some jobs are not as entertaining to be in extended.

Whether group you are in, I think both groups will benefit to either changes that raise their entertainment value in extended, or the crew to try to involve these in their gimmicks/whatever. Maybe having no secret extended can signal people better that this shift, you're supposed to build your own fun instead of expecting an antag to do it for you. my apologies for being long winded.


These are good points and I think it highlights the issue well. Jobs that either don't have a very exciting mid/late game or rely heavily on antags to make it fun feel shitty during secret extended (and slow antag shifts.) Being a doctor with nothing to do is one of THE reasons most sane people don't play doctor willingly, same partially goes for sec I expect. Announced extended manages expectations properly, and people who are not interested can opt out or get a job change to something more interesting.

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Re: Remove Sextended from Normal Rotation

Postby Arianya » Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:21 pm #504918

I understand (and agree with) your points regarding those jobs, but I disagree with the conclusion you reach - because you actually discourage the crew from trying to create their own gimmicks/projects on anything other then announced extended by creating the expectation that the round will not be quiet unless it's announced extended.

To a certain extent this folds into rule 10 - sometimes your round will be boring. This isn't limited to secret extended - sometimes you'll sign up to be Security and the revhead will die to something dumb after 40 minutes of not doing much. Sometimes you'll be a doctor and your body will be permagibbed by a wizard 1 minute in so he can take your identity and blend in to the crew.

Ultimately, while code changes can certainly be made to give certain jobroles more to do, from a gamemode/policy point of view it doesn't make sense to remove secret extended just to avoid a minority being bored because they don't/can't roleplay, and can't come up with their own projects. We make fun of greytiders but the fact is that if a greyshirt can build a secret speakeasy in maint theres nothing stopping a security officer/medical doctor from doing so.
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Re: Remove Sextended from Normal Rotation

Postby wubli » Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:07 am #510236

The simple answer is no.
Paranoia is an important part of the game. A good point that was raised is that, eventually, you run out of things to do - but midround antags exist, and if it's not enough for you and you wonder when is there going to be more stuff: when you code it.
We don't see why removing the fourth most popular gamemode is a good idea. If anything, I'd be arguing if we should remove announced extended, since it turns into suicide fest - at least secret extended doesn't let them know.
Another valid point is that people might not want to get into projects if they don't know there are antags, because the round might end fast, but I don't believe that the solution is outright removing secret extended and leaving just announced.
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