Escalation discussion

[peoplearestrange]

Bottom post of the previous page:

So in the just over a year that I've been gone from tg a new meta has come about, for many of you this will be standard and normal though, but I'd like to be able to talk about it because I believe it has a lot of connected issues.

Escalation.

Escalation always sort of existed, though never to the extent that it is now and certainly not as common place. The issue with the current guidelines/usage is people get to basically kill anyone with a fairly low amount of provocation.

That dude that slipped you? Give em a punch to let them know you mean business. Oh they're hitting you back with a toolbox? Stab em in the eyes with a screwdriver! Oh now they're stabbing you with a kitchen knife? Pull out that gun you found and shoot them dead. Leave their body in escape so It might be found in 30 mins or so depending on traffic. This isn't an uncommon set of events. Quiet often Im getting people ahelping this and more often than not there's some back and forth between people in the logs so I have to drop it.

This is genuinely surprisingly common, like at least 5+ times a day I will see an ahelp regarding this.

The main issue around all of this is that ANYONE essentially can kill, Im not sure if this is because cloning has become so quick and easy that dying doesnt really mean much or if its something else. The issue is it removes a lot of people from the round and ultimate upsets a lot of people. Obviously people have to expect to die in this game, but it USED to be that the threat came from antags, or the captain or the HoS if you REALLY pissed them off for long enough. Now its basically anyone.

I think actual murder needs consequences for non antags.

[lmwevil]

doublepost


okay so hear me out, if you want to change it, don't just say GIMMIE CHANGE

show us the change you want, actually give us a codified difference that you can imagine will realistically change things for the better

i'm sick of policy threads that don't state what they want the new change to be, so people can debate that. these always end up as players/admins going X thing bad because Y but never stating a formalized Z that could fix it in a concise manner

[Malkraz]

doublepost
okay so hear me out, if you want to change it, don't just say GIMMIE CHANGE
show us the change you want, actually give us a codified difference that you can imagine will realistically change things for the better
i'm sick of policy threads that don't state what they want the new change to be, so people can debate that. these always end up as players/admins going X thing bad because Y but never stating a formalized Z that could fix it in a concise manner

I don't think there's any changes you could make to current policy that would better cover the situations the policy was meant to cover. The only portion I think is lacking is how an instigator can keep harassing somebody for 20 minutes and is then justified in killing them if they throw a punch back. That said, I think this is more of an enforcement issue and it should be handled on a contexual basis as you could end up denying the instigator from killing in situations where it's legitimately warranted. There's a difference between instigation with a (maybe justified) purpose and truly unprovoked harassment and I'm not sure you can better distinguish these through policy wording without getting autistic.
Good instigation: It's 40 minutes into the round and Mining tech isn't researched. Miner goes to R&D to ask for it and is told to fuck off. Breaks into R&D (instigation) and is attacked by a scientist with a welder. Fight ends with scientist dead and mining tech researched.
Miner had a legitimate reason to escalate conflict with a belligerent coworker that was impeding his job despite technically being the instigator.
Bad instigation: Yesterday I was Clown sitting in arrivals and an Assistant joined the station. Got off the shuttle and immediately started shoving and punching me. Pushed him away and left. Found me a couple minutes later and started throwing shit at me. Got his skull caved in with a fire extinguisher and spent the rest of the round in disposals.
Dude's only intention was to keep harassing me until I made myself valid. If he had any hope of actually killing me, this would've been complete shit escalation even if I responded with violence and should warrant a bwoink.

[deedubya]

Hate to necro a worthless discussion, but I wanted to clear something up regarding "lethal force", since people seem to have varying opinions on it, and have held differing opinions over the years.

To me, lethal force is anything that does actual damage to you. Be it brute, burn, toxic, or suffocation. If they deal a single hitpoint to you, that's lethal intent as far as I'm concerned. As it relates to escalation, if you throw a toolbox at me for no reason, am I not justified in leaving your naked corpse in a closet in maint? I've never actually been noted or banned for treating escalation in this manner, but I've gotten a few bwoinks over the years for it.

Also, a more fringe discussion for lethal force, is trying to jostle someone into a lethal situation. Like trying to dump someone in a conveyor belt trap, space them, or get them jammed into an emagged recycler. These can be a bit hard to prove in ahelps/bwoinkings, but I think they also make you 100% valid under escalation.