/tg/Station 13

How many times have you been in a round where the traitors have been quiet/dead, or on extended, where the station is running with no hiccups and there's no great catastrophe going on...and someone calls the shuttle because "we've been here too long"?

Yeah, I get it, most of us have jobs and other shit to do and don't want to commit to over 2 hours of spessmen. But look at the absolute stupidity that's going on in character. You've decided to have a very expensive research station that you've been living on for ages/just been transferred to be abandoned just because you couldn't contain your ADHD?

Calling the emergency shuttle when there's no actual emergency as a non-antag should be just as bannable an offense as early launching with no justifiable reason. If there's no immediate threat to the station, you should have no reason to evacuate it. Why is ending the round of a single person without provocation considered bannable, but ending the round for every single person on the server for no reason considered kosher?




side suggestion in addendum to the above policy, for coders or config editing: Double the chance for midround antags to spawn every half hour, so that rounds don't drag on for too long.

if you don't want some guy calling the shuttle then stop him

It'll vary admin by admin, but in general if someone is calling for no reason/bad reasons you can ahelp it - we can recall the shuttle and in the case of multiple bad calls smite the offender (obviously hg knows this I'm just explaining for others) - though it'll depend what view the admin(s) have of the round - you might think the station is in fine shape, but the admin might see the SM melting down/aliens spawning in maint/etc and think it's better for all involved to leave it alone.

deedubya wrote: side suggestion in addendum to the above policy, for coders or config editing: Double the chance for midround antags to spawn every half hour, so that rounds don't drag on for too long.

There's nothing in the config that allows that kinda fine tuning of midround antags, so it'd be a code suggestion yeah.

dynamic mode kind of fixes this unless it rolls like 3 threat or something.

It's more a code issue since there isn't any "goal" to work towards when the station isn't going to shit.

From a admin intervention perspective I usually leave shuttle calls to the players in game to resolve. The Heads of Staff (or the guy with their ID) are accountable to the crew and if they truly go against the will of the majority there are in game avenues that can be taken usually leading to some interesting situations. That said, Ari is right that when you've got some kind of shuttle call abuse going on it can end up with admin recalls, BSA smites and centcom messages.

I wouldn't want to completely remove the ability for the crew to generally decide they've had enough and move on to the next round. I'd prefer they stayed engaged in the round for as long as possible but much of this is about having regular non-antag content that keeps most departments engaged even into the hours.

Would a station goal completion be considered when we consider a "Too early shuttle"?
Is it acceptable to call the shuttle because the goals given to the station have been completed?

Need a way to recycle roles IC without the need for a HoP (not that HoP can recycle Head roles) and that's less recycling and more just adjusting the limits. Probably by the way of cryo storage

I'm all for bashing in the head of the person who calls it 20 mins in on a greenshift, but if you're going on a highpop server and getting mad when people want to leave an hour in when nothing's happening just because you fucked off to build a treehouse in space, that's on you. Yes, downtime and quietness is important to the flow of the game, but if there's no conflict and no one is running fun gimmicks that include the crew at large, it's usually better to just call it than sit in the bar and alt tab your web browser

I think the game would benefit form more station goals, so taht people can have something interesting to do together.
Maybe something that involves Sec, Library, Lawyer, Chaplain, and/or medbay, since those are the roles that can run out of stuff to do the earliest.

Malkraz wrote:if you don't want some guy calling the shuttle then stop him

"Robust anyone that does something you dislike" is a stupid argument that should never be used on any server that even has the mildest semblance of RP standards.

From a admin intervention perspective I usually leave shuttle calls to the players in game to resolve. The Heads of Staff (or the guy with their ID) are accountable to the crew and if they truly go against the will of the majority there are in game avenues that can be taken usually leading to some interesting situations. That said, Ari is right that when you've got some kind of shuttle call abuse going on it can end up with admin recalls, BSA smites and centcom messages.

I wouldn't want to completely remove the ability for the crew to generally decide they've had enough and move on to the next round. I'd prefer they stayed engaged in the round for as long as possible but much of this is about having regular non-antag content that keeps most departments engaged even into the hours.

That leads to my big issue with IC/OOC separation issues. Sure, OOC you're bored, you have work in the morning, you didn't want to commit to a 2+ hour shift, you didn't roll antag and just want the round to end...any number of reasons OOC. None of that justifies an IC shuttle call. The station is running, power is getting everywhere, everyone's well fed, in good health, there's no looming emergency. There's no reason to evacuate. The common scenario where a Captain calls a vote to evacuate? Almost all the people voting "yes" are just bored stupid and want the round to end, rather than invested employees seeing a legitimate reason to evacuate their workplace. That shouldn't be any more acceptable than a head calling the shuttle because of boredom.


However, as others(and I to an extent) have stated, this is a problem that probably needs a combination of code and policy to solve. Either by giving the station more goals to work towards, or by making midrounds more common the longer the round drags on. The latter is probably an easier solution, and solves the issue of rounds dragging on too long. After all, we're all adults with responsibilities(I hope), so expecting someone to commit to 2+ hours of spessmen in a single sitting is a bit much. Code forcing disaster level events by the 1:30 mark would solve the issue, I think.

deedubya wrote:

Malkraz wrote:if you don't want some guy calling the shuttle then stop him

"Robust anyone that does something you dislike" is a stupid argument that should never be used on any server that even has the mildest semblance of RP standards.

good thing we aren't on one then

If you're bored just ghost and hop servers.

deedubya wrote:

Malkraz wrote:if you don't want some guy calling the shuttle then stop him

"Robust anyone that does something you dislike" is a stupid argument that should never be used on any server that even has the mildest semblance of RP standards.

The notion that higher RP involves more admin oversight as IC gods seems really weird to me.

You can "stop him" without turning them horizontal. I'd definitely consider wasting centcomm resources because I WANNA GO HOME D: a briggable/demotable offense. If it's the captain get support and mutiny.

I imagine tehre's also the possibility of just suing the Captain for "wasting NT resources" and try to get a trial going.
it gives lawyers something to do, it gives captain something to do, and it stops the shuttle for the duration of the trial.
it is also a nice opportunity for shenanigans in general, so I think it'd be an interesting solution.

Implement round end shuttles like they do on high RP servers. Force a time limit to the round so it can't drag on for eternity (that admins can override) and at the same time disallow stubbed toe calls because if there's nothing to do, the round will end on its own anyway.

Long rounds tend to spawn more side antags though, or meteors, so the amount of rounds that are getting past two whole hours are pretty rare unless you're on a nopop server.

I don't really look forward to the arguments about that PR, so im not going to greenlight it unless the headadmins are united on it.

Yakumo_Chen wrote:Implement round end shuttles like they do on high RP servers. Force a time limit to the round so it can't drag on for eternity (that admins can override) and at the same time disallow stubbed toe calls because if there's nothing to do, the round will end on its own anyway.

Long rounds tend to spawn more side antags though, or meteors, so the amount of rounds that are getting past two whole hours are pretty rare unless you're on a nopop server.

A hard limit on round length with Big Bold Greentext for the crew if they make it to the end and complete the crew goal

If more than half the crew want to leave, the shuttle is called.

If the situation is really dangerous on the station and the crew need to leave, the shuttle is called.

If the population of the crew drops to a certain level (10%?), I believe the shuttle is called.

There are IC ways to resolve if people call the shuttle and if there is a small group of people who literally massacre the crew to keep it one way or another that's ahelpable.

If you're bored two hours in and want to leave, you can literally just ghost out or suicide. You can even do this as a Head of Staff if you give your responsibilities to someone else.

I don't see what the problem here is.

We don't have enough content in most jobs to justify the round lasting much longer than an hour and a half in the absence of a fun gimmick by either admins or players. Instead of going "we need more content" then go make some or suggest some, preferably the former. That's why I don't do anything about "I'm bored" shuttle calls after an hour or so, and even then, the worse I'd do is a recall and smite.

If there's an issue with someone trying to call the shuttle because they're bored, then go get support and recall it/demote the captain. That creates an interesting situation that makes the round worth going on longer so you kill two birds with one stone.

Deedubya wrote: That leads to my big issue with IC/OOC separation issues. Sure, OOC you're bored, you have work in the morning, you didn't want to commit to a 2+ hour shift, you didn't roll antag and just want the round to end...any number of reasons OOC. None of that justifies an IC shuttle call. The station is running, power is getting everywhere, everyone's well fed, in good health, there's no looming emergency. There's no reason to evacuate. The common scenario where a Captain calls a vote to evacuate? Almost all the people voting "yes" are just bored stupid and want the round to end, rather than invested employees seeing a legitimate reason to evacuate their workplace. That shouldn't be any more acceptable than a head calling the shuttle because of boredom.


However, as others(and I to an extent) have stated, this is a problem that probably needs a combination of code and policy to solve. Either by giving the station more goals to work towards, or by making midrounds more common the longer the round drags on. The latter is probably an easier solution, and solves the issue of rounds dragging on too long. After all, we're all adults with responsibilities(I hope), so expecting someone to commit to 2+ hours of spessmen in a single sitting is a bit much. Code forcing disaster level events by the 1:30 mark would solve the issue, I think.

Roleplay wise, yes, there's no problem with the station etc. Gameplay wise, the round is boring except for the guy working xeno, the guy building an autism fort in space, and maybe someone else. Gameplay takes priority here. Restarting the round keeps the game fresh.

This is when I usually spawn low impact side antags -- abductors, morphs, etc. -- to give the ghosts something to do and produce conflict in the round.

BeeSting12 wrote:We don't have enough content in most jobs to justify the round lasting much longer than an hour and a half in the absence of a fun gimmick by either admins or players. Instead of going "we need more content" then go make some or suggest some, preferably the former. That's why I don't do anything about "I'm bored" shuttle calls after an hour or so, and even then, the worse I'd do is a recall and smite.

These are all points that I've already mentioned, even in the post you're quoting. I even proposed a code solution that would be fairly effective at forcing rounds to end faster without putting a hard time limit on the amount of time you're allowed to remain on the station. If I wasn't so horribly inept at coding, I'd even propose the PR myself. Basically, double the rate at which midround antags and hostile events spawn every half hour, so by two hours in you have a 16x chance for nasty shit to pop up. (2x at 30, 4x at 60, 8x at 90, etc)

This is when I usually spawn low impact side antags -- abductors, morphs, etc. -- to give the ghosts something to do and produce conflict in the round.

based. I think it should be more automated though; since not every admin is like you in this respect, admins aren't always present, and a portion of the playerbase tends to get assmad when admins start pushing buttons.

deedubya wrote:

BeeSting12 wrote:We don't have enough content in most jobs to justify the round lasting much longer than an hour and a half in the absence of a fun gimmick by either admins or players. Instead of going "we need more content" then go make some or suggest some, preferably the former. That's why I don't do anything about "I'm bored" shuttle calls after an hour or so, and even then, the worse I'd do is a recall and smite.

These are all points that I've already mentioned, even in the post you're quoting. I even proposed a code solution that would be fairly effective at forcing rounds to end faster without putting a hard time limit on the amount of time you're allowed to remain on the station. If I wasn't so horribly inept at coding, I'd even propose the PR myself. Basically, double the rate at which midround antags and hostile events spawn every half hour, so by two hours in you have a 16x chance for nasty shit to pop up. (2x at 30, 4x at 60, 8x at 90, etc)

That I'm saying is you're asking us to ban people who are calling the shuttle for a legitimate, albeit OOC, reason. It may ruin your immersions, but the game gets boring after an hour and a half for almost every job (usually earlier). It's ridiculous to ban people for that. Even in the OP you admit it: the situation is in character. It seems stupid in character, and thus should be dealt with in character.

BeeSting12 wrote:

deedubya wrote:

BeeSting12 wrote:We don't have enough content in most jobs to justify the round lasting much longer than an hour and a half in the absence of a fun gimmick by either admins or players. Instead of going "we need more content" then go make some or suggest some, preferably the former. That's why I don't do anything about "I'm bored" shuttle calls after an hour or so, and even then, the worse I'd do is a recall and smite.

These are all points that I've already mentioned, even in the post you're quoting. I even proposed a code solution that would be fairly effective at forcing rounds to end faster without putting a hard time limit on the amount of time you're allowed to remain on the station. If I wasn't so horribly inept at coding, I'd even propose the PR myself. Basically, double the rate at which midround antags and hostile events spawn every half hour, so by two hours in you have a 16x chance for nasty shit to pop up. (2x at 30, 4x at 60, 8x at 90, etc)

That I'm saying is you're asking us to ban people who are calling the shuttle for a legitimate, albeit OOC, reason. It may ruin your immersions, but the game gets boring after an hour and a half for almost every job (usually earlier). It's ridiculous to ban people for that. Even in the OP you admit it: the situation is in character. It seems stupid in character, and thus should be dealt with in character.

I wouldn't suggest a full on ban for stuff like that. Warning someone for a bored/stubbed toe call would be appropriate in my eyes, followed by potential rolebans from command if the warnings start stacking up.

Also, the issue almost never gets resolved in-character, because most of the people playing have a similar level of little-to-no IC/OOC separation. OOC they're bored, didn't roll antag, and haven't seen any valids for an hour - so that means IC they want to evacuate. So when someone with access(legit or tided) calls the shuttle, they won't form a lynchmob to go recall, since they OOC just want to move on to a more exciting round.


I will reiterate though that I think a code solution would be good alongside a policy solution. But if admins/coders want to see more IC actions rather than the culture of validhunting and tiding we currently have, you should implement policy to reflect that.

deedubya wrote:

BeeSting12 wrote:

deedubya wrote:

BeeSting12 wrote:We don't have enough content in most jobs to justify the round lasting much longer than an hour and a half in the absence of a fun gimmick by either admins or players. Instead of going "we need more content" then go make some or suggest some, preferably the former. That's why I don't do anything about "I'm bored" shuttle calls after an hour or so, and even then, the worse I'd do is a recall and smite.

These are all points that I've already mentioned, even in the post you're quoting. I even proposed a code solution that would be fairly effective at forcing rounds to end faster without putting a hard time limit on the amount of time you're allowed to remain on the station. If I wasn't so horribly inept at coding, I'd even propose the PR myself. Basically, double the rate at which midround antags and hostile events spawn every half hour, so by two hours in you have a 16x chance for nasty shit to pop up. (2x at 30, 4x at 60, 8x at 90, etc)

That I'm saying is you're asking us to ban people who are calling the shuttle for a legitimate, albeit OOC, reason. It may ruin your immersions, but the game gets boring after an hour and a half for almost every job (usually earlier). It's ridiculous to ban people for that. Even in the OP you admit it: the situation is in character. It seems stupid in character, and thus should be dealt with in character.

I wouldn't suggest a full on ban for stuff like that. Warning someone for a bored/stubbed toe call would be appropriate in my eyes, followed by potential rolebans from command if the warnings start stacking up.

Also, the issue almost never gets resolved in-character, because most of the people playing have a similar level of little-to-no IC/OOC separation. OOC they're bored, didn't roll antag, and haven't seen any valids for an hour - so that means IC they want to evacuate. So when someone with access(legit or tided) calls the shuttle, they won't form a lynchmob to go recall, since they OOC just want to move on to a more exciting round.


I will reiterate though that I think a code solution would be good alongside a policy solution. But if admins/coders want to see more IC actions rather than the culture of validhunting and tiding we currently have, you should implement policy to reflect that.

If no one wants the shuttle recalled enough to actually try to recall it, then the shuttle shouldn't be recalled because an admin decided "muh round didn't go on long enough"

no you are wrong boring rounds suck and everyone starts going braindead. use that as your emergency.

if the majority of the players want to reset the round let them
???

This would fall under admin discretion, on a case by case basis.

In this case, they're encouraged to recall the shuttle if the reason why it got called was a dumb one and/or there are no active threats on the station, an example of dumb reasons being like ''I'm bored, time to go home'' or ''I stubbed my toe''.