Kill and Clone

[deedubya]

Yes, I know a lot of people think it's a meme. But it's not, at least not completely. It's not only within the realm of realistic expectations currently, but some people actually do it. I've only ever seen it done to people in massive crit(150+ damage) or just a refusal to defib(technically already dead), but it is a thing. My question is; how should this be treated as it relates to policy?

For my opinion, I think it's mostly an IC issue, at least if the patient is in crit. If someone gets dragged into medbay in critical condition, a doctor has to make a series of choices based on a large number of circumstances. Circumstances can include: Patient injury type and levels, patient backlog, medicine availability, medicine quality, cryo availability, cloner upgrade status, medbay integrity, and a doctor's own morals. Euthanasia, assisted suicide, DNR orders, and the option to take someone off life support all exist IRL, so I think it's reasonable to expect similar cases in a horizontal spessmen simulator where death is generally treated as a major inconvenience, rather than a true end. If a CMO/Captain has an issue with your methods of treatment however, they are fully within their rights to demote you or maybe even brig you for it. (Not policy related, but perhaps we should add Malpractice as a space law violation?)

Although, I do think it should be warnable if a pattern emerges. Such as is currently done for other line-toeing behaviors. And the obvious scenario of toolboxing someone that came in without being in crit should obviously remain bannable, unless consent is given.

[Tlaltecuhtli]

if a doctor doesnt know shit about his job i ll prefer being cloned while crit than having a medbay wild ride featuring 10 min of cryo if he is taking other docs patients that are actually trying to heal to throw them in the cloner then its valid to beat his ass dead and clone ⌥ banbait ban if he ahelps and job ban

[NecromancerAnne]

if a doctor doesnt know shit about his job i ll prefer being cloned while crit than having a medbay wild ride featuring 10 min of cryo if he is taking other docs patients that are actually trying to heal to throw them in the cloner then its valid to beat his ass dead and clone ⌥ banbait ban if he ahelps and job ban

Imagine saying this but unironically. Good lord dude.

As for actually killing and cloning people?

Don't. You can bring someone fairly easily out of hard crit with the surgeries and brute/burn kits or cryo my guy. Ain't that hard. Just don't be a fucking dumbass.

[Timonk]

Killing and cloning is still faster with an fully upgraded cloner than cobbychems

[Shaps-cloud]

Wait is this against the rules specifically

I always kept it in the back of my mind as an option if someone's like hella fucked up (several limbs missing and medbay is already busy) as a sort of last ditch triage. If people are circsawing people to death because they have minor organ damage, that's stupid and not very doctorly I guess

[Cobby]

So long as cloning exists I don't really see this as an issue.

If you trust someone to actually kill you instead of you just laying down and taking surgery then not much I can do lol.

Some people just need a reset, I don't think it's bad to do that.

Killing and cloning is still faster with an fully upgraded cloner than cobbychems

what kind of damage are you taking lol... Maybe rads? I can see that.

Otherwise I think you're just not using the tools you have available to their fullest potential.

[NecromancerAnne]

Most advanced chems and even cryo is simply better than outright killing and cloning. Organ replacements are kind of a bitch to harvest early but monkeys are just the room over from the cloner if you need organs.

Hell honestly, why no resleeve into a monkey human? Take their body, copy their identity, put it on a monkey human, take out and swap the brains, defib. Boom. Back to life, good as new. Flawless and it takes almost no time at all.

Of course, humans only...

[Cobby]

I've tried to not use cloning and it's quite possible to heal people up with TW on Stasis Bed > Defib > Heal faster than the default cloner will churn out bodies. T4 idk but the upgraded ones are probably not as fast as that either if you use upgraded surgeries.

The whole kill and clone meme is dumb in most cases, it's just a funny meme to spout. I'm saying that as a doctor player, not the person who coded it.

[deedubya]

The thing with Cryo and the cloner are that they're set and forget solutions. TW>defib is faster than an un-upgraded cloner, but that requires active effort to do. Not a viable solution when you've got multiple crits and stiffs on the shuffle.

[Cobby]

even your kill and clone (tm) device has that issue though outside of maybe a BYOS, in which case you should build with TW>Defib in mind

[bandit]

This is more of a code than policy issue -- ideally the medical and cloning systems would be such that killing and cloning would be an unattractive last resort option, not the other way around.

[Screemonster]

go full eclipse phase and have mental traumas that are built up and up each time you legitimately die and get crammed into a cheap sleeve, up to and including complete personality shift (having some random other ghost take over your body) or other !!FUN!! things that make death something you would really rather avoid even if you can be brought back

[Timonk]

Why would I waste my time on an organ damaged mess with the chance of them dying on me more than once rather than just cloning them

[Yakumo_Chen]

time to nerf cloner more I guess

[4dplanner]

go full eclipse phase and have mental traumas that are built up and up each time you legitimately die and get crammed into a cheap sleeve, up to and including complete personality shift (having some random other ghost take over your body) or other !!FUN!! things that make death something you would really rather avoid even if you can be brought back

This would make people very angry

[Screemonster]

go full eclipse phase and have mental traumas that are built up and up each time you legitimately die and get crammed into a cheap sleeve, up to and including complete personality shift (having some random other ghost take over your body) or other !!FUN!! things that make death something you would really rather avoid even if you can be brought back

This would make people very angry

good

[CPTANT]

The cloner always giving you some sort of permanent defect would make the alternatives a lot more attractive.

It keeps the cloner in the game while providing an actual choice: Do I want the quick and easy route while potentially screwing someone up, or take the long way of revival surgery and patching up their broken bodies.

[Dr_bee]

Better would be to just have the cloner print catatonic bodies that you can use to swap the brain of the dead guy into. This is more a discussion about code than it is about policy.

[Recurracy]

time to nerf cloner more I guess

this is a serious issue - people seem to think that nerfing medbay out the ass improves things, it doesn't

[Grazyn]

As long as the doc is acting in good faith (i.e. he's actually trying to get the patient back on his feet, not just killing and throwing him in the clone queue and forgetting about him) it should fall into "banning for incompetence" territory, which I think admins don't like to do.

[confused rock]

If someone will die without your help, there is zero wrong with lettin em rot and cloning them. If they’re just standing there with an arm lopped off and you wordlessly kill em, you got an issue.

If they have jungle fever its fair game and if anyone says otherwise deadmin them immediately

[Cobby]

Better would be to just have the cloner print catatonic bodies that you can use to swap the brain of the dead guy into. This is more a discussion about code than it is about policy.

l-l-like empty cloning?

[Dr_bee]

Better would be to just have the cloner print catatonic bodies that you can use to swap the brain of the dead guy into. This is more a discussion about code than it is about policy.

l-l-like empty cloning?

Yep, but ONLY empty cloning. Possibly a way to just print the organs themselves using it as well.

Clones with ghosts in them would only be available via the space ruin prototype cloner.

[wesoda25]

What is the point of this thread

[oranges]

vent thread

[cedarbridge]

time to nerf cloner more I guess

[NecromancerAnne]

Better would be to just have the cloner print catatonic bodies that you can use to swap the brain of the dead guy into. This is more a discussion about code than it is about policy.

AKA nobody will use the cloner and people are permadead unless medbay is graced with strange reagent.

I tried an event where if anyone tried to make a cloner or replace the one I removed from medbay, I'd destroy it. I gave them a third surgery room and additional monkey cubes. More importantly, only one geneticist, so a genetic pod was free. This was a traitor round. People either used strange reagent or they threw the body into the morgue.

I have genuine concerns our playerbase are such animals at times that a semi-reasonable amount of effort on their part would prove to be too much. We have no minimum standard of competency in jobs or roles and we have no desire to enforce any specific requirements needed to being back people who died outside of your efforts. As a result, we can't really force anyone to use complex methods to bring people back into the round or treat them in a non-destructive way (like kill and clone before upgrades).

We could speculate on what would be healthier gameplay all we like. But at the end of the day the bleak reality of it is that we probably are more likely to see extreme laziness on the part of players unless heavily incentivized not to be so.

[cedarbridge]

Better would be to just have the cloner print catatonic bodies that you can use to swap the brain of the dead guy into. This is more a discussion about code than it is about policy.

AKA nobody will use the cloner and people are permadead unless medbay is graced with strange reagent.

I tried an event where if anyone tried to make a cloner or replace the one I removed from medbay, I'd destroy it. I gave them a third surgery room and additional monkey cubes. More importantly, only one geneticist, so a genetic pod was free. This was a traitor round. People either used strange reagent or they threw the body into the morgue.

I have genuine concerns our playerbase are such animals at times that a semi-reasonable amount of effort on their part would prove to be too much. We have no minimum standard of competency in jobs or roles and we have no desire to enforce any specific requirements needed to being back people who died outside of your efforts. As a result, we can't really force anyone to use complex methods to bring people back into the round or treat them in a non-destructive way (like kill and clone before upgrades).

We could speculate on what would be healthier gameplay all we like. But at the end of the day the bleak reality of it is that we probably are more likely to see extreme laziness on the part of players unless heavily incentivized not to be so.

Pull off the bandaid.