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golems, revs, and cults

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golems, revs, and cults

Postby ATHATH » Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:19 am #512852

Let's say you're a servant golem named Adamantine Memicus and your master is John Doe. You go and do normal golem things until, suddenly, you get converted to a cult or a revolution! While you are a cultist/revolutionary, John Doe is not.

Who do you serve above all else: John Doe or the cult/revolution?

What if John Doe has told you to go "do whatever"? Can you aid the cult in their goal of summoning Nar-Sie, or would that be considered to be ensuring the doom/death of your master?

Do servant golem allegiances persist after you get polymorphed into a simplemob?



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Re: golems, revs, and cults

Postby ATHATH » Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:20 am #512853

Terranaut also brought up on Discord the possibility of a traitor getting converted to the side of a revolution or a cult and realizing that one of their assassination targets is on their team. Can they still try to assassinate that target, even though they're their "ally"?

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Re: golems, revs, and cults

Postby ATHATH » Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:24 am #512855

The reason I bring this up is because the servant golem greeting text says that "This will never change unless your creator's body is destroyed.", with "This" referring to your creator being your master.

Can brainwashing turn a golem against its master?

Also, I just noticed that there's a missing apostrophe in the word "creator's" in the greeting text for servant golems. reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

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Re: golems, revs, and cults

Postby NoxVS » Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:35 am #512859

Is this even possible? I thought golems and the like had built in mindshields and were unable to be converted, they could only inherit it from their creator.
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Re: golems, revs, and cults

Postby Arathian » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:26 am #512865

Golems get converted normally (I have been flashed and rev'd by a headrev as a golem)

Also if you are a rev or cultie and make a golem, said golem starts as rev or cultie.
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Re: golems, revs, and cults

Postby Sandshark808 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:27 am #512877

I have always been told that conversion rules override roundstart or spawn rules. If you're a blood brother but a rev converts you, you have to kill your brother if he's fighting you and you have to accomplish the revolution's goals even if it will make you redtext.
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Re: golems, revs, and cults

Postby Anonmare » Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:23 am #512888

NoxVS wrote:Is this even possible? I thought golems and the like had built in mindshields and were unable to be converted, they could only inherit it from their creator.

Golems inherit creator factions, including antagonist factions and status. A golem made by a cultist will also be a cultist.

In my opinion, the golem serves the faction when this occurs as I do not believe a golem can be deconverted traditionally, unless implanters can penetrate golem skin.
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Re: golems, revs, and cults

Postby Naloac » Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:50 pm #512906

since this also applies to dynamic in general Ive always seen it as, Conversions over single antags. you can still do single antag stuff but not to the detriment of the overall team antag. so in the case of a golem they would have to try and convert their unconverted master but try to not directly harm them themselves.
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Re: golems, revs, and cults

Postby ThanatosRa » Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:27 am #512958

Naloac wrote:since this also applies to dynamic in general Ive always seen it as, Conversions over single antags. you can still do single antag stuff but not to the detriment of the overall team antag. so in the case of a golem they would have to try and convert their unconverted master but try to not directly harm them themselves.

If I recall correctly this was it. Team supersedes individual objectives.
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Re: golems, revs, and cults

Postby zxaber » Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:05 am #513019

Seems to me that a code solution preventing golems from being converted at all would be the ideal solution. If their master gets converted, they could just order the golem to help the team out anyway.
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Re: golems, revs, and cults

Postby Cobby » Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:39 am #513163

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Re: golems, revs, and cults

Postby Hulkamania » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:33 pm #515790

After a bit of discussion we've settled on the following:

In general as has always been precedent, team antagonists take priority over other antagonistic goals. You're still allowed to complete those goals, but not if it would be a detriment to the team. This is and will be the case in almost all circumstances.

However, in the case of brainwashing/being granted sentience you are being created and molded to serve a direct purpose, or in the case of brainwashing have had your head modified to outright obey that purpose. As such we've settled on the following hierarchy in the instance of things like dynamic game mode causing conflict between two people who are both technically on teams:

Brainwashing/construct orders/Silicon Laws -> Cult -> Revs -> Blood Brother -> Wizard Apprentice/Abductor Teams/Other niche antags -> Nuke Ops -> Traitors

The reasoning for those: The brainwashing group i've already explained, but with the addition of silicon laws in that these are things you cannot refute. They are part of your very programming and being. Cult is next because you've been touched by an eldritch abomination of a god and want to do whatever you can to please them. Revs come after because it is a minor form of brainwashing, although you can snap out of it with the right circumstances. Blood Brothers follow because ohana means family and family means no one gets left behind. Wizard apprentice is a general category to explain all the other side antag positions that can come up where you're still technically part of a team. Nuclear Operatives are last because you're mostly just doing a job and getting paid for it.

In the vast majority of all games you shouldn't have to rely on this at all, and as always you can still act on your other antagonistic goals as long as it's not harming your team, but this hierarchy serves as a useful reference for those instances when you do have vastly conflicting goals and aren't sure which ones you should be following.

A good example of this is if you're blood brothers with a head of staff and become a revolutionary. Your rev goals take priority over your blood brother goals, so you would now consider them an enemy. They would be entitled to defend themselves against you, or perhaps try to deconvert you.

To emphasize, this is not to say you can't accomplish all your goals within the confines of also helping your team. This is to say that if you're in a situation where you have to choose one or another, this makes it clear which you should be choosing.


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