Enforce higher expectations for heads of staff and security roles

[imsxz]

Inexperienced command players are a plague and consistently lower the quality of rounds. I'm not asking for powergamer veterans, what I mean by inexperienced is stuff as simple as CE not knowing how to fix a plasma flood or sabotaged SM, CMO not knowing basic chemistry or when to defib instead of clone, HOS not having a good idea of at least HOW to take down specific threats (flashes and flashbangs for borgs, shotguns vs nukies, etc.

The repercussions I have in mind aren't severe at all, and are more to save the community from playing with exceptionally inexperienced command players rather than punishing a player for being new. Let's say RD player is beating the shit out of a tider and an asimov borg comes to save the tider because the borg is literally required to. RD proceeds to detonate the borgs because he suspected the borg was "rogue", showing a complete lack of understanding of silicon policy and asimov laws. Currently, the RD would probably get a note, and MAYBE a dayban if you're lucky. In my proposed solution,the RD would be command banned for let's say a week, and be strongly encouraged to read up on silicon related rules and command expectations.

tl;dr temporarily command ban players that display gross incompetence/inexperience as a command role. stick to short term temporary bans outside of extreme repeat offenders.

Every server has issues with command mains that have little to no clue what they're doing, and clearly just want the better gamer gear/the feeling of power over others. I believe that I have a good solution to the genuine issue of very bad command players - the current system of time gate is clearly not working, and probably never will. Time gates aren't effective because some people are really good at learning/common sense and some people are really BAD at it. We have some long term players that main command and are clearly not interested in becoming a better gamer.

[angelstarri]

this is the ultimate "ban ekaterina chekov" post and i love it

[Reyn]

Ekat's a big fucking problem, but she's not the only one.

I've personally see a lot of heads of staff act either incompitent, or downright malicious/tidelike in my time here.

Chief engineers, for example, have a godawful habbit of bringing a metric fuckton of radiation into medbay, HOS metabuddying, RD ordering research to make fifty fucking ais (Not actually but you know what I mean), The HOP... The HOP is hard enough as it is. being HOP is suffering. CMO often disregards their job, Captain is usually... meh. Occasionally they name the station a racial slur, but... eh.

[oranges]

>heads aren't roleplaying to my powergamer levels of expectation

how about you jsut play the game to enjoy it

[wesoda25]

I prefer inexperienced heads to powergaming heads. Experience isn’t necessarily a good thing, you shouldn’t have to be omniscient to play as a command role. Just bump up required hours - suggesting to ban long time players cause they don’t play the role to your satisfaction is bizarre.

[oranges]

also I just realised this post is actually massively hypocritical because you actively avoid head of staff roles, so basically you and everyone else who are experienced players who then also greytide and make life hell for command and sec are basically the victims of your own stupidity

[Dr_bee]

Well one of the disadvantages of a head role is that you have an entire game mode where you have a giant fucking target on your back.

I would play CMO, RD, and CE more often if it didnt feel like 9 times out of 10 its a rev round and I get wordlessly murdered before I even know whats going on.

The extra toys are not worth the extra risk and responsibility for people that arent HoP, Captain, or HoS. I would rather play a normal job in the department and do the same job without near guaranteed early death in a non-trivial number of game modes.

Also, Oranges, isnt the game balanced around the expectation of a certain level of competence from command staff and security?

[MortoSasye]

While I understand where this policy discussion is coming from and I agree on it in certain aspects, it would be extremely naïve to deny that the reason there is a lack of experienced players playing as heads of staff is because of the high amount of people that greytide / self antag / become obnoxious in general to them.

If we want to enforce a higher rp standard from our heads of staff, then it may be time we start punishing people that break into departments, steal the heads of staff equipment, make their life’s impossible and then go cry that they’re condoms, shitcurity, or other similar insults for doing their job.

If we want better heads of staff, we have to start punishing people that make playing as one unbearable. This comes from me, a player that mainly plays heads of staff positions: Playing as a head of staff knowing that you will be messed up with for free is disgusting and not fun which causes people to not play in these positions except for mainly new players.


Also as a future note: I'm replying to this as a player, not as a head admin.

[wesoda25]

also I just realised this post is actually massively hypocritical because you actively avoid head of staff roles, so basically you and everyone else who are experienced players who then also greytide and make life hell for command and sec are basically the victims of your own stupidity

this has no relevance just because they dislike a common trend for command players doesn’t mean they should have to play command, or that they can’t bring up their complaints

[oranges]

also I just realised this post is actually massively hypocritical because you actively avoid head of staff roles, so basically you and everyone else who are experienced players who then also greytide and make life hell for command and sec are basically the victims of your own stupidity

this has no relevance just because they dislike a common trend for command players doesn’t mean they should have to play command, or that they can’t bring up their complaints

actually it has 100% relevance, their failure, or dislike of playing command, while bumming around as a super robust assistant has lead to the exact situation that they now decry.

If they're too myopic to see that, and don't want to play command roles either, then they have no basis to make a complaint that command staff are "incompetent"

[imsxz]

I don't want better heads of staff. I want less heads of staff that have no clue what they're doing. The stuff I outlined in my thread are in no way powergaming requirements or require you to be some sort of neet gamer god. All I'm asking is that head of staff players have an okay idea of how to run their department. That is not asking much AT ALL.

Having a good head of staff player is nice and can greatly improve a round, but isn't that much better than one of their subordinates being an exceptional worker instead. An incompetent head of staff player, however, has the potential to massively derail rounds and grief without acting maliciously at all.

What prompted me to do this wasn't even what I experienced in game, but as an admin. I had to tell a guy that getting lethalled to death on the spot by HOS over a joke was valid because the HOS was just a newfriend that didn't realize it was going on. There was nothing I could do really besides tell the HOS to get gud, but beyond that I couldn't act as command players aren't required to be experienced or really have any idea what they're doing.

The standards for command that I'm requesting are so incredibly low and simple that anyone that truly wanted to lead that department would have no issue adhering to it. Don't fool yourself into thinking that I am demanding all the powergaming assistants play command.

[Sandshark808]

I don't want better heads of staff. I want less heads of staff that have no clue what they're doing. The stuff I outlined in my thread are in no way powergaming requirements or require you to be some sort of neet gamer god. All I'm asking is that head of staff players have an okay idea of how to run their department. That is not asking much AT ALL.

Having a good head of staff player is nice and can greatly improve a round, but isn't that much better than one of their subordinates being an exceptional worker instead. An incompetent head of staff player, however, has the potential to massively derail rounds and grief without acting maliciously at all.

What prompted me to do this wasn't even what I experienced in game, but as an admin. I had to tell a guy that getting lethalled to death on the spot by HOS over a joke was valid because the HOS was just a newfriend that didn't realize it was going on. There was nothing I could do really besides tell the HOS to get gud, but beyond that I couldn't act as command players aren't required to be experienced or really have any idea what they're doing.

The standards for command that I'm requesting are so incredibly low and simple that anyone that truly wanted to lead that department would have no issue adhering to it. Don't fool yourself into thinking that I am demanding all the powergaming assistants play command.

I second this entire statement.

What I have never understood is that you need multiple hours of a department to play a head role, so how the fuck do people get to be HoS/CMO/Captain without knowing a single thing about how the game works? I once saw a CMO who couldn't figure out how to use a stasis bed so he went SSD. I had to deputize an assistant (the only person actually helping people) to become the CMO and take his equipment. Usually RDs have the courtesy to fuck off and do an autism project, but HoSes and CMOs actively sabotage the round with their stupidity.

[Cobby]

Also, oranges, isnt the game balanced around the expectation of a certain level of competence from command staff and security?

Sec maybe, Captain maybe, but no otherwise.

The game is not balanced around if the heads are good/bad at the game on the basis that "peons" can carry the entire load without having any tools that are provided to their department head.

[Reyn]

It's also not expecting the Heads of staff to be greytiding pieces of shit.

[Gigapuddi420]

I feel like we have this topic at least once a headmin term. To put it simply; general incompetence isn't and shouldn't be against the rules. We already have experience requirements and it's possible to change those if we feel players are getting to head of staff positions too quickly. You'll still get some idiots despite this and it's just part of working on a poorly managed space station that is Space Station 13. Dealing with gross negligence however, is something I can kind of get behind though it often crosses over with other rules. I wouldn't be against the idea of holding Heads of Staff to a higher standard even if that standard is just that they don't use the role to tide with improved starting loot.

[Cobby]

It's also not expecting the Heads of staff to be greytiding pieces of shit.

They aren't entitled to their gamer gear, if they're being shit with it you can confiscate it as sec and see if the cap will demote them.

If it's the cap you can always mutiny.

[Kryson]

One or more of the heads being a massive comdom can be pretty funny.

And while it can be nice to have a competent head, most heads do not actively lead their department that much anyway.

[Sandshark808]

One or more of the heads being a massive comdom can be pretty funny.

And while it can be nice to have a competent head, most heads do not actively lead their department that much anyway.

The latter is kind of a consequence of the former. You'll often see an insanely robust person in a normal job role and they will attempt to run the department if the head isn't active or skilled. Most often this is wardens in sec (meting out punishments), the HoP taking the Captain's responsibilities, a doctor like Fasa al-Kharim (who is Sybil's last remaining med main), or others essentially running the departments just because they're the only visible presence to outsiders.

If the Warden is the only one coordinating prisoner transfers and searches, sec officers will defer to them in an emergency. If one doctor is doing triage and the others have given up on medbay altogether, that doctor is the de facto head because his orders stand. A head who can't keep up becomes irrelevant.

[NecromancerAnne]

In the case of Sybil, many of the long term most experienced and most capable department players also happen to be nonhumans. Very few human players outside of med, and there was a mass exodus from medbays playerbase recently so that department in particular is lacking in experience. As someone pointed out, the only one I know of who stuck around is Fasa, and he doesn't play CMO. Everyone who kinda played medbay before are now just playing assistant and coming in to assist medical when things get rough.

Additionally, the same can be said often of security as well. Most very good security players who play regularly are also nonhuman, and so don't ever play HoS so they can stick with their static.

This isn't an argument for nonhuman command but it is something interesting that I observed and might partially comtribute.

In addition, command runs the risk of being the target in a game mode that can pop up and people generally don't like being made targets. If revs didn't exist, there would be more incentive to be a member of command more often outside of lowpop hours where revs don't show up.

So a mixture of wanting to keep to a static identity, not wanting to be an objective with 100% certainty in some game modes and the only people thus filling those command roles being extremely fresh faced results in command staff who have no idea what they're doing.

[NecromancerAnne]

This is also (and actually my own reasons) for why we don't have a lot of experienced players in sec who know how to fight and carry out their jobs.

Sec are largely obligate validhunters against the most disruptive members of the station's population. They're big targets for antags to kill. They have nothing more to do other than that, and can't really abanfon abandon their position either. Often, if something has to get done, it's down to the experienced players acquiring tools and solving the problem in a practical manner.

Like an improvised shotgun to the face.

Authority is somewhat decentivised by a combination of our ruleset and our game modes. It is actually slightly a power game move both to not be sec or command. The humble greyshirt is truly the most advantageous member of the crew. Nobody expects the maint rat to do all the heavy lifting in the background.

[Dr_bee]

Authority is somewhat decentivised by a combination of our ruleset and our game modes. It is actually slightly a power game move both to not be sec or command. The humble greyshirt is truly the most advantageous member of the crew. Nobody expects the maint rat to do all the heavy lifting in the background.

This cant be stated enough. Not only is the authority of the role rarely respected by the player-base due to actually exercising it being an escalation starter but heads of staff have a gigantic target on their back even when it ISNT the mode entirely dedicated to making their life hell.

[Cobby]

Maybe we should add something similar to security that says you can't escalate against a superior if they're within their right to do such and that action is "valid"?

IE you shouldn't be able to escalate if you get demoted so long as their demote reason was justified.

[Sandshark808]

Maybe we should add something similar to security that says you can't escalate against a superior if they're within their right to do such and that action is "valid"?

IE you shouldn't be able to escalate if you get demoted so long as their demote reason was justified.

I feel like that should be self-explanatory. Demotion isn't violence, so it's not escalatable in the first place.

[deedubya]

While I understand where this policy discussion is coming from and I agree on it in certain aspects, it would be extremely naïve to deny that the reason there is a lack of experienced players playing as heads of staff is because of the high amount of people that greytide / self antag / become obnoxious in general to them.

If we want to enforce a higher rp standard from our heads of staff, then it may be time we start punishing people that break into departments, steal the heads of staff equipment, make their life’s impossible and then go cry that they’re condoms, shitcurity, or other similar insults for doing their job.

Bingo, we've hit the nail on the head. Assistant mains(and every other "low risk" role, for that matter) should start being held to the same standards as everyone else. Currently the server culture has an "expectation" that an assistant is just going to be a minor antag the entire shift, and even admin judgements seem to follow that trend. Things that would get you warned/rolebanned at minimum on other roles get marked as "IC issue" if you're repping the greysuit/gasmask combo. If you want to start bringing experienced players back to command and security, you need to start enforcing the same amount of expectations from the lower roles as well, so that experienced players don't just use them to grief when they're bored.

[Dr_bee]

Maybe we should add something similar to security that says you can't escalate against a superior if they're within their right to do such and that action is "valid"?

IE you shouldn't be able to escalate if you get demoted so long as their demote reason was justified.

I feel like that should be self-explanatory. Demotion isn't violence, so it's not escalatable in the first place.

Under who's interpretation? Escalation has changed so often over time and is interpreted differently enough to make doing anything a minefield. How the fuck do you think you will demote the person if they aren't listening to your authority? You'll have to either get security to help, who have their own set of problems to deal with, or use your trusty baton to forcefully remove their card from them, which is a violent act.

Escalation killed the concept of departmental roleplay. It made actually having a hierarchy a near impossibility when you have to worry about Asshat McAssistantmain trying to pull a Klingon promotion on you for having the gall to fire him for doing nothing but making space lube as a chemist, or for making walls in the hallway as an engineer.

Most server culture problems can be traced back to the codified griefing that is "escalation"

[ThanatosRa]

I don't think it would be SS13 if heads were always competent. That demand feels counter to the spirit of the ganem

[Sandshark808]

Under who's interpretation? Escalation has changed so often over time and is interpreted differently enough to make doing anything a minefield. How the fuck do you think you will demote the person if they aren't listening to your authority? You'll have to either get security to help, who have their own set of problems to deal with, or use your trusty baton to forcefully remove their card from them, which is a violent act.

Escalation killed the concept of departmental roleplay. It made actually having a hierarchy a near impossibility when you have to worry about Asshat McAssistantmain trying to pull a Klingon promotion on you for having the gall to fire him for doing nothing but making space lube as a chemist, or for making walls in the hallway as an engineer.

Most server culture problems can be traced back to the codified griefing that is "escalation"

That's a good point. Maybe there should be a demotion option in the job management console that nullifies someone's keycard access to your department's property, so long as they're not a member of command staff. The game already knows who's part of what department so it wouldn't be hard to list your employees, and HoPs could use that to strip access from assistants if they find they've unlawfully obtained all access (though the console shouldn't list access levels, so if you're sneaky you can get away with it.

Having that around would make the HoP have a reason to go to the office once in a while, and would make heads more powerful in ordering their department.

[Istoprocent1]

Under who's interpretation? Escalation has changed so often over time and is interpreted differently enough to make doing anything a minefield. How the fuck do you think you will demote the person if they aren't listening to your authority? You'll have to either get security to help, who have their own set of problems to deal with, or use your trusty baton to forcefully remove their card from them, which is a violent act.

Escalation killed the concept of departmental roleplay. It made actually having a hierarchy a near impossibility when you have to worry about Asshat McAssistantmain trying to pull a Klingon promotion on you for having the gall to fire him for doing nothing but making space lube as a chemist, or for making walls in the hallway as an engineer.

Most server culture problems can be traced back to the codified griefing that is "escalation"

That's a good point. Maybe there should be a demotion option in the job management console that nullifies someone's keycard access to your department's property, so long as they're not a member of command staff. The game already knows who's part of what department so it wouldn't be hard to list your employees, and HoPs could use that to strip access from assistants if they find they've unlawfully obtained all access (though the console shouldn't list access levels, so if you're sneaky you can get away with it.

Having that around would make the HoP have a reason to go to the office once in a while, and would make heads more powerful in ordering their department.

This should only be an option, if the heads are loyalty implanted from round start and cannot be antags.

[Reeeee]

Opposite also true.
Eka is a cancer RD that goes down to lavaland for "gamerloot" instead of running the department and fails to ensure research at minimum is done, so... That's one "experienced gamer" abusing it opposite way and min-maxing access to moonlight everything but their department. Imagine if every head was playing like that. Ech.

Make playtime requirements bit longer more complex and add a start of round pop up or something on what is expected of each head. Well, not captain, captain is just expected to die at one point and be annoying, loud and useless.

Only way you solve it is command roles are whitelisted and only allowed as PREFERENTIAL slots to those who select engineer and are whitelisted land on CE slot instead of normal engineer, if there is space. That way only "responsible" people end up in those slots and get access to gamerloot instead of "i literally afked in robo to get RD open so i could learn research lol". You wanna enforce it, enforce it by actually limiting who plays it. I have no interest in head roles unless i wanna captain some dumb shit or HoP around sitting in my office petting Ian anyway so...
QM slot "upgrades" to HoP, btw. QM mucho trainer role for who gets to access sensitive stuff and you need to learn to be robust on the side so that at minimum.. RD and CMO could also both demand time in both departments go git gud at it. Warden kinda already is trainer role for HoS, so.

Whitelisting makes it more of an requirement to wanting to spend effort in that role, that and adding ALL departments under the head role into the playtime requirements should make people more invested in getting to BE one of the heads.
Yes it's fucking elitist as fuck and i get that, it's going to be a beehive of autistically faggoty and uppity motherfuckers who consider it a badge of being the ELITE.
That's why whitelisting, admins can just boop people off that list for being elitist cunts about it.

Talking about it all good and fine and maybe some policy change would also fix it from the other direction. But this way you at least KNOW heads are always going to be GOOD at their jobs. Traitorous, maybe, but also good at it. It's also a change into direction of more "involved, more rp, more methodical" TG wants to push anyway.

And yes, whitelist for command roles is a cancerous suggestion that needs coding and admin involvement exponentially.
It would also work, until it is abused.

Add same for assistant role while we are here. I have no trouble letting people PLAY the game but we have Cargo Techs as trainer roles for that purpose. 70% of staff being the tide doesn't really contribute to game being played, just to more greytide. Being greyshirt should be a role of some status that you can uphold by proving you don't just use it to be a shitler every goddamn round but can invest into being a free agent and do something with it besides exist and tide into places.

Maybe uncap some roles while at it, security/medical/engineering could use more bodies to throw at problems, even if they are new.
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=23891 <- Related, i guess?

[Sandshark808]

This should only be an option, if the heads are loyalty implanted from round start and cannot be antags.

No tator would do this unless they wanted a stunbaton shoved up their asshole. Locking everyone out of the department is guaranteed to get everyone to lynch you, which is the opposite of what an actual traitor wants.

The only department without the gamer gear necessary to break back in and lynch their former head is Medical, and the CMO has no reason to lock people out in the first place since more bodies = more implanted bombs or more brainwashing.

[MGP]

As a Sec/Cap main, you either have it in you or you don't. I hypothesize job selection is mediated by personality more than anything else. There are likely correlations between the proportion of hours spent as Security/Captain, and how agreeable a person is. People that are disagreeable are more likely to be hostile and argumentative, and are generally more tolerant of conflict than other people. Conflict tolerance being a determining factor of whether you main sec or not, as you will be having constant conflicts. Also Security's job is the keeping of order on station. Orderliness falls under the domain of conscientiousness, and thus there could be a link there as well.

So why do you not have many sec mains? Probably because someone that is low in agreeableness and high in conscientiousness is selected against at the SS13 game level, or at the server level. In other words, not many people with that personality profile play SS13, or if they do, not on /tg/station, because they are discriminated against in some way that moves them to other servers.

No amount of incentives is going to make an Assistant main who is on one opposite end of a personality spectrum be a Security Officer. Forcing them to will just make them play less or stop playing altogether. If you want more Sec/Heads of Staff, you have to lower the threshold for conflict tolerance necessary to comfortably play the role. This will make it so that people that almost have the psychological criteria suddenly fit, and far more likely to play the role. Basically, make it harder to greytide, nerf antagonists, and make it easier to do your job as Security.

If there's anyone here who has any sort of ambition, you should conduct a survey of player's five factor model personality (and better yet more variables than that, so more research can be done) and see if there are any statistically significant correlations between personality and job selection. Actually since I like research and know how to do it properly, I would do this all myself just because it's interesting. Alas, you have banned me. I don't think you deserve it, and most people here probably don't know how to read research articles anyway. Still a good idea.

[crashmatusow]

An impressively tone deaf thread wherein poor murderhobos demand more restrictions on the head roles they constantly shit on.

Nobody is ever going to take command roles seriously when the station is just a violent daycare.

[Reeeee]

You know, fuck it.
Let's ban EVERYONE from all head and assistants under "quality control". It's not arbitrary if it's a blanket mandate applying to all for purpose stated.

Then we can see who deserves those roles with ban appeals when and IF they write one. Fukken solved. 90% of fucksticks cannot even write good much less have a excuse to play assistant main to get one passed. Let's fucking go, right now, I'll appeal my CE and assistant RN with 100% certainty since I don't tide and have zero notes about either role.

Spoiler:

Here, my CE appeal in one picture;

I'll add 200 words if it comes to that.

OR ARE ALL ASSISTANTS MAINS SCARED? YES THEY ARE.
Factually it wont happens because even all three headmins in unison with full support of adminchoir could not pass such a ruling without pitchforks and torches showing up for literally no reason at all other than to be contrarian. Instead of spending that energy to spend on writing 200 words on "why should I be allowed to have assistant" so we could have some quality and higher expectations from said roles.
But, there's your solution. One at least that hits both issues on the nose with effective change. Discuss I guess.

And you know full well you are one of the worst offenders IMSZX, love you, but true as fuck when it comes to headroles. I don't get why YOU are the one demanding this when you absolutely fall off the fence to either side of it as a player and abused the fuck out of both CE and RD to the maximum and you somehow always seem to be part of worst greytide events smack dab in the middle setting an example of exact thing you seemingly and suddenly don't wanna see happen anymore.

Lead by example nerd, you are somewhat of an idolized person on bagil at least, don't assume it happens, show how it's done instead of "imma emag my megahone and scream lazy shit on common as CE" and add to it so new players emulate you and see an admin doing it since you are the popular with your inventive murderbones and whatnot. Flip the board nerd, start doing helpbones or whatever is the opposite of murderbone. Effecting change is a choice after all, not something that can be effected by rules and policy change without going full retardo mode and DEMANDING change to how game is played...
With blanket ban, you don't penalize any one person, just the whole community is forced to shift and choose to be "better" or at least have an amusing excuse for it. Nots saying this should be full on INVESTIGATION on each and every person, just like, 200 words that makes sense and assures this person is invested in these roles on the level of "i spent effort in keeping this role".

No mean things meant tho, you play how you want to, I don't really wanna shout at people to play "THIS WAY!" and it's not really affecting me if people do tide and are shit at headroles. As long as i got a toolbelt, a lightsource, some lathe time and access to some sort of EVA-suit or mining gear and lavaland, I am content. I sit in the silly "engineering/autism project main" sub-group who play pacifist or mine away happily for mats and mostly ignore the station and the tide ad eternum because I got better things to do with my time than to engage derplings.

NOT THAT ANYONE IS READING THIS ANYWAY.

[FloranOtten]

Let me tell you a story.

Once upon a time, there was a new player. Dillbert. Dillbert wanted to play Engineer. He spends some time and learns to setup the roundstart, pure n2 engine. He learns to do construction. He learns the solars. He knows how to setup atmos roundstart (But nothing more.) Dillbert decides, what the hell, and plays Chief Engineer. The first round goes swimmingly! The engine humms along, a few holes are poked but those are easily fixed. The next round is the same. Lowpop peace. He grows content. Cocky. Dillbert thinks he's got this engineering thing down straight, while really, he has the bare bones of what he really needs as a CE. Then, a round of chaos. The engine is sabotaged, medbay is bombed. Luckily, an experienced engineer is around. Mister Paddlin Lowlands starts to fix the SME. Replacing pumps, setting the air alarm, all that jazz. Dillbert is unaware about volume pumps and straight pipes. To Dillbert, it's the default setup or bust. Dillbert sees the Lowlands replacing pumps with straight pipes, and calls sec. ";'SEC TO ENGI PADDLIN LOWLANDS SABOTAGING SME". Sec arrives. Paddlin tries to explain, but who is sec going to trust; the CE or the engineer? Paddlin in taken to brig. Dillbert sets it back to default setup. There's no new n2 being added, and Dillbert's gas pumps cannot handle the volume of hot gas. The SME delams. Dillbert goes to the escape shuttle, and salts in OOC postround about "that nonantag engi sabotaging the engine." The engineer, having just been permabrigged, salts back. He explains to Dillbert why straight pipes are better. Dillbert ignores this. He's been a CE for a bit now. Dillbert thinks he'd have seen that by now. Dillbert does not improve.

Another story.

Paddlin Lowlands is sitting in engineering. He decides that hey, it's a slow round, how's for a good engine? He sets up solars, then starts improving the engine. There's no pumps. There's a triple layered extended cooling loop. There's an isolated loop inside the chamber that has freezers attached with plasma inside. There's a cooling loop at the space injector. There's 3 extra scrubbers inside the chamber. Everything is grand. Dillbert's distant cousin arrives. He is a CE. He does not understand the glory, the magnificence of the engine. Dillbert's distant cousin doesn't understand gas theory. He thinks pumps are required. Dillbert's distant cousin adds pumps in places they don't matter, add pumps that entirely block the flow, connects the pure plasma loop to the main cooling loop. He chastises the engineer over comms. What an idiot, he thinks. The SME starts to delam, as the only gas being fed is a small trickle from the plasma cooling loop, and no nitrogen as that has been blocked. Dillbert's distant cousin tries and fails to fix it. He prevents the experienced engineer fixing it, claiming he's an idiot. Dillbert's distant cousin batons and cuffs Paddlin Lowlands. Paddlin is brigged. the SME delams. Dillbert's distant cousin blames Paddlin for it, and doesn't want to improve.

These are two examples of an inexperienced engineer as a CE. They are extreme, but they can ruin a round. This isn't mentioning asshat inexperienced CEs that take the CE suit and refuse to give it to an engi when this is needed. This doesn't include the asshat new CE that tries to command respect as some kind of dictator. This isn't including the 100 connections CE that tries to determine what gimmick the department is allowed to do.

We need a higher requirement for heads. Or at least things like the CE, the HoS, or the RD. It really, really sucks when your department head fucks you over because of his inexperience.

[Cobby]

@Reee I would not let you be CE under the premise that your BSA would fire into your SMES/APC unit.

[Reeeee]

@Reee I would not let you be CE under the premise that your BSA would fire into your SMES/APC unit.

FALSE.
Observe the rotation of BSA, it is pointing AWAY from the station. It was test fired on all megafauna signals without issue.
IT IS ALSO A CONTROL ROOM FOR ASTEROID DEFENSE TO PREVENT ADMINS ASTEROIDING IT HAHAHAHA.

[CrazyClown12]

The effect of a bad head of staff is far worse than the effect of no head of staff at all. There are a lot of people who play head roles that don't know the basics of their department at all and because they are the head they refuse to listen to people who do. For example in a recent shift I was irradiated because the CE decided to do an SM set up that irradiated the entire engineering lobby without warning (I simply walked from maintenance above the SM room to the protolathe and that was enough to give me a fatal amount of rads. I then went to medbay and asked the CMO for some help. When I mutated and obtained acid skin I would repeatedly ask him for mutadone. Each time I would ask him for mutadone he would feed me a pill of mannitol. It took about 10 minutes of me whispering from hardcrit on a stasis bed before he finally realised that mutadone and mannitol were in fact separate chemicals.
Separate to my example. One of the most important jobs on the station is that of the HoP. If you lose your ID card on a high population round (for whatever reason) your chances of getting a new one are never particularly high at all. It seems the HoP is rarely at his office outside of roundstart and it's incredibly rare that they will go to their office when requested or required.

With that said, I don't think that playing a head role is particularly fun. The better items aren't particularly great, the increased access saves a few seconds of time when compared to someone with a toolbelt and insulateds. The disadvantages are having to ahelp before you ghost (It's a pretty gay concept and honestly makes me feel like a 10 year old having to ask the teacher if I can go to the bathroom) having to wrangle tards and the fact that there is an entire gamemode dedicated to ruining your round.

[Actionb]

Be head and:
a) have nothing to do because your crew is competent, but you still cant just bugger off because responsibilities
or
b) get nothing done because your crew is incompetent and your department is on fire, but you still cant suicide because responsibilities

Or be no head and:
a) get shit done because shit needs to get done and then do whatever and have fun with the game

It's not even a competition. Why would you want to be this shift's caretaker for the mentally challenged.
You don't need to be head to do the department's work - if the job's work is your focus, you will do it anyway. A kid loudly yelling over the radio isn't going to get you to start doing your job.
So what's the point if you're not that heavy into RP or a saint ("Departments should have a head") or don't get a semi from demoting somebody?
The only way to improve quality of heads of staff is when experienced players routinely take the role. A role that, they have learned, doesn't really offer any benefits to their enjoyment.
The singulo is gone, so no more 10 min rounds due to shit CEs. The incompetence of other heads cannot have as much impact. We're as good as we're ever gonna get (unless heads were removed).

[Reyn]

A good head of staff is a benefit to everyone in the department, or even in the station. I've seen a fair share of heads of security who actually keep sec accountable and hold them back from murderous rampages. I've seen captains who were great, I've seen heads of personel who did their job and did it well.

The problem of incompitent heads is one thing, But those can usually be gone around through the initiative of the department.

And then theres shitler heads of staff. I'm going soon, but I need to elaborate on the worst of the worst in terms of heads of staff, where the Line between Incompitence and Malice/shittery is crossed.

[Critawakets]

Just make being a head of staff require whitelisting via a forum thread. The forum thread can contain just "hey i played for some time can i be CE", along with an accomplishment they did. Or an absolute failure that they know how to fix.

Problem is solved, players require an admin to notice them before they can actually play head of staff. Also playing into things like anxiety about "what if it gets denied" so that only experienced players will apply.

Maybe make captain without whitelist though. The role is a shitter role.

also non-human heads of staff, make it happen, everyone on sybil that is experienced is at the very least a felinid

[Sandshark808]

also non-human heads of staff, make it happen, everyone on sybil that is experienced is at the very least a felinid

This is the reason why they're banned from head roles tbh. :^)

[Arianya]

In general, the server culture in general has been against whitelisting. I'm also not sure whitelisting would help us have head of staff coverage.

[Reeeee]

I'm also not sure whitelisting would help us have head of staff coverage.

Does that actually matter? Since if it's so terrible anyway, it would be nice if heads were actually good, talented players instead of whomever.

[Sandshark808]

I'm also not sure whitelisting would help us have head of staff coverage.

Does that actually matter? Since if it's so terrible anyway, it would be nice if heads were actually good, talented players instead of whomever.

Well, right now we pretty much have open season and also no heads at all. How will a whitelist improve that?

[Reeeee]

Well, right now we pretty much have open season and also no heads at all. How will a whitelist improve that?

We don't really know, do we? Herp. I don't claim to be clairvoyant on how something improves or makes stuff worse, current method is not working tho, everyone is pretty much agreed on that. Fighting against change is really not gonna do anything either.
Saying "this will not work because x" is claiming to know how something works before it's tested. Then again, whitelist is a so hotly contested topic, apparently, that it will never happen because "REE CHANGE" "REE MY TRADITIONS". Even if it WAS the solution to all the problems since everyone already hates it we will never know due that that said culture of hating change.

But my guess, if it was whitelisted, people would consider it a badge of "being elite" and invest into it and play that role better due to it. Or maybe not, nobody knows. And do we really need people who are not whitelisted to play headroles? Everyone can still do any job in the department without being a head, it's just added responsibility that it adds on top of it. Makes sense you would wanna be invested in a responsible role enough to write 100 words on the topic or something.

[Arianya]

It doesn't take clairvoyance to say that restricting a role to people who have the motivation to do out of game forms/admin approval/whatever is going to drastically reduce the number of available players for that role.

Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is opinion, really, but what gameplay purposes heads of staff do have (nuke disk, guarding traitor objectives, etc) would not generally be helped by there being very few people capable of even selecting the role.

[Reyn]

Sorry for sounding like a fucking lawyer, but I just did a rules dive and uh...

Ahem.

Let me get my lawyer mood on.
Rule 5, Precedent 4

Abuse of position; as in being deliberately incompetent or malicious in their position is not allowed. Deliberate incompetence or malice can result in warnings or bans, depending on severity. Example would be a chemist constantly abusing the position to make space lube and lubing hallways, they may be warned and then jobbanned if further abuse happens.
There IS a specific rule about abusing positions continuously, and, due to being under rule 4, which is especially geared towards heads of staff, even though this applies to all jobs, There is already a precedent and a rule against heads of staff being shitters (Aka using their role just to tide).

Once again, sorry for rules lawyering, but I just wanted to bring that up.

[teepeepee]

no one's saying there's no rule prohibiting it though, the title is literally ENFORCE
they are saying this rule should be actually applied, since they don't feel like it is at the moment
in my oppinion, non-malicious incompetence is fine and makes the game fun, but most people seem to think otherwise

[Reyn]

Maybe the issue is that nobody ahelps it, or nobody sees this as a serious issue.

[Grazyn]

Be head and:
a) have nothing to do because your crew is competent, but you still cant just bugger off because responsibilities
or
b) get nothing done because your crew is incompetent and your department is on fire, but you still cant suicide because responsibilities

Or be no head and:
a) get shit done because shit needs to get done and then do whatever and have fun with the game

It's not even a competition. Why would you want to be this shift's caretaker for the mentally challenged.
You don't need to be head to do the department's work - if the job's work is your focus, you will do it anyway. A kid loudly yelling over the radio isn't going to get you to start doing your job.
So what's the point if you're not that heavy into RP or a saint ("Departments should have a head") or don't get a semi from demoting somebody?
The only way to improve quality of heads of staff is when experienced players routinely take the role. A role that, they have learned, doesn't really offer any benefits to their enjoyment.
The singulo is gone, so no more 10 min rounds due to shit CEs. The incompetence of other heads cannot have as much impact. We're as good as we're ever gonna get (unless heads were removed).

^this

I add that this (fully justified) mentality is also what keeps relatively new (but not totally incompetent) players away from head roles. There are some things you can only learn by playing head, like all the head-specific gadgets and gizmos, but nobody likes being shouted at, second-guessed and shoved around by their own underlings, all veteran players going "reee that's not the best way to do x, you're incompetent, let me do it, fuck off you don't know shit, someone demote the CE etc."
So the new player either says "fuck it" and throws the towel, never to play head again, or he escalates against his underling, which leads to policy threads such as this one. And both things guarantee that the head role will stay empty or be filled by really new and totally incompetent players.