Fixing server culture with policy

[deedubya]

I'd like to present some threads made recently.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=23996 - A thread complaining about constant tiding and the consequences of it
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24092 - A thread lamenting how basic RP standards have gone down the shitter
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 33&t=23995 - A thread that discusses how experienced players refuse to take roles with responsibilities attached
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 10&t=23712 - A thread that complains about how you can't just tide your entitled ass into medical and self-heal anymore without even interacting with the people that actually work that job

All of these things are a subset of a larger issue: How the server culture has shifted for the worse over time. There's zero respect for role adherence. There's zero respect for authority. There's zero respect for common sense. People feel entitled to absolutely everything on the station regardless of what role they're playing. This causes authority figures to throw their hands up and give up playing the role, or stop playing it properly. (read this thread: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24018 "I could use space law but lets be real here no-one uses it (and those that do don't get very far)") The people that do try to keep order on a station full of entitled fuckwits wind up labeled as shitcurity and fun ruiners, then get mobbed IC and ridiculed OOC. It's ridiculous. This expectation that the captain/security should be your personal doormat is so out of hand it's actually become a real thing. The expectation that any role should be able to waltz in and do every job is one that never should have taken root in the first place. The chef shouldn't even fucking have CQC in their kitchen, but it was deemed necessary because so many people felt entitled to the food within the kitchen when there is an active chef on duty that the coders had to find a solution when policy failed the server. This isn't a solution that can be solved with code, at least not without ruining the experience for everyone on lowpop.

What we need are solutions in policy to bring server culture away from the validhunting, entitled playstyle that has defined this server for several months now. Ways to discourage and punish chronic shit disturbers instead of just marking it as "IC issue" and moving on, when it's known damn well that the issue will never be dealt with ICly. People will probably scream and holler about "muh escalation", but that's only one piece of policy and it will only possibly solve one of the issues when reworked, if it even does that.

Honestly, I think everyone that plays this game has forgotten Rule 10, and that's causing the issues we have. People feel entitled to their gamer gear. They don't want to be inconvenienced in any way by a traitor, having to wait for a department to fulfill requests for them, or security to handle disputes for them. Perhaps policy should be implemented to make Rule 10 an actually enforceable rule, insofar as that excessive powergaming should be punishable. Likewise, Rule 7 should be enforced much more often, as many of the behaviors I described above are just examples of playing fast and loose with the rules, often line-toeing and acting against the spirit of the law.

[Anonmare]

I blame the hub for this mainly and I'm at fault for not being harsher as an admin with the pubbies. TG may as well just switch the T and G around and rename to Greytide station.

[Anonmare]

The only real practical solution is to put a limit on player agency by preventing omnidisciplinarians with no real job from doing everything, but that is so anathema to TG's culture that it'll never happen

[deedubya]

but that is so anathema to TG's culture that it'll never happen

That line of thinking is how we've wound up in this cesspool to begin with. This mindset needs to be abandoned if we want to make any sort of positive change.

[wesoda25]

yeah bro tg fucking sucks but what are you and your ambiguous suggestions gonna do about it

[Atlanta-Ned]

You need to lead by example. Play the kind of characters you want to play with. Otherwise nothing is going to change.

[Shaps-cloud]

back in MY DAY people RESPECTED THE SANCTITY OF SPACEMAN AUTHORITY *bangs on table knocking over monster*

[PKPenguin321]

but that is so anathema to TG's culture that it'll never happen

That line of thinking is how we've wound up in this cesspool to begin with. This mindset needs to be abandoned if we want to make any sort of positive change.

No, he's right in that particular case

[Dr_bee]

E S C A L A T I O N.

Why bother enforcing your authority when that asshole will spend the rest of the round trying to fucking kill you for it. Why try to keep people out of your department when any attempt to do so gives them a reason to beat you to death. Minor IC crime being normalized has lead to major IC crime being normalized.

[NoxVS]

All these problems are just symptoms of a larger problem. The server culture isn't a problem, the systems that encourage that culture are. If you just dont let people behave the way they do without fixing the thing that causes them to behave that way then you haven't solved anything.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=23996 - A thread complaining about constant tiding and the consequences of it

Problem: Not enough content in actual jobs for people to have fun doing it.

Solution: Add more content, make it more rewarding to do the job, balance out the responsibilities some roles have with rewards (IE mining)

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24092 - A thread lamenting how basic RP standards have gone down the shitter

Problem: Players don't respect AUTHORITAH because the only requirements to be a role are to click a button, any doctor could be an incompetent moron

Solution: More requirements to be a job, having to show basic knowledge of that job (Or just reading the fucking wiki page once), mechanics that make people better at doing their job while not disallowing others from doing it (IE docs can do surgery better but if all docs are braindead an assistant can still do it)

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 33&t=23995 - A thread that discusses how experienced players refuse to take roles with responsibilities attached

Problem: No reward for taking extra responsibilities

Solution: Give people rewards for having extra responsibilities to encourage doing that job, have higher standards so you know you can trust the CE to know what that weird yellow crystal is and how they shouldn't touch it

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 10&t=23712 - A thread that complains about how you can't just tide your entitled ass into medical and self-heal anymore without even interacting with the people that actually work that job

Problem: Once again, players have no way of knowing a doc knows what they are doing. Players would respect certain jobs more if it took actual effort to be that job. Anyone can press the medical doctor button without any knowledge of medical and because of this players would rather fix problems themselves

Solution: Same as before, higher requirements to be a job, incentives for putting effort in.

There's zero respect for role adherence. There's zero respect for authority. There's zero respect for common sense. People feel entitled to absolutely everything on the station regardless of what role they're playing. This causes authority figures to throw their hands up and give up playing the role, or stop playing it properly.

Respect is earned, you cant force players to respect someone if there is no effort put in to earn it. If you are throwing a tantrum because no one respects your fake title then you are probably one of the shitters who powertrip in command roles. You want AUTHORITAH, earn it.

This isn't a solution that can be solved with code, at least not without ruining the experience for everyone on lowpop.

Stopping the symptom without dealing with the actual cause won't help either, and I see no way any of the policy fixes wouldn't just cause the problems you imagine code solutions would

What we need are solutions in policy to bring server culture away from the validhunting, entitled playstyle that has defined this server for several months now.

If you have an issue with the culture developed by the vast majority of the server, are you positive you aren't the problem?

There are servers that offer exactly what you have asked for in this thread. TG isn't one. I play TG because I enjoy all of the things you listed as problems. I enjoy being able to run around and have fun without being bwoinked by an admin because I picked up a crowbar while I was not part of engineering or I cured a disease and saved everyone when I wasn't part of medical or I managed to avenge the crew by killing a serial killer despite not being security.

I do think there is a problem but I don't think its as bad as you say. If any changes should be made to this they should be entirely code based and incentive players to play a certain way rather than force them.

[oranges]

If you have an issue with the culture developed by the vast majority of the server, are you positive you aren't the problem?

that's funny I didn't realise you were the majority of the server

If any changes should be made to this they should be entirely code based

Why, so I can get called a doody head some more? great

That line of thinking is how we've wound up in this cesspool to begin with. This mindset needs to be abandoned if we want to make any sort of positive change.

correct and a line of thinking that I threw in the trash for the codebase some time ago, tg culture as an argument holds no weight with me

The chef shouldn't even fucking have CQC in their kitchen

this is literally just a reference to a steven segal movie

[Cobby]

Fixing stuff like that w code is certainly the preferred option, but you need to find someone who is willing to code it and someone who doesn't mind being in the cross-hairs of a bunch of players.

Considering your code activity, i doubt you'll be the one to pickup the tab anyways so policy should be fine until then.

[wesoda25]

ah yes, another great community discussion where the end result is wyci. I fear for the day when these people actually learn how to make a PR.

[Istoprocent1]

Give everybody CQC in their workplace. It worked with the chef.

Real talk though. Tiding is bad, then again trying to put everything behind OOC punishments is worse. I personally would like to see excessive tiding to be dealt with the same way as breaking into the captain's office at the start of the round.

Escalation is not that bad, if its light-hearted and not malicious. For example few shoves here, few stabbings in the eye with a screwdriver there and in the end both people walk away from the medbay as friends.

[Shadowflame909]

E S C A L A T I O N.

Why bother enforcing your authority when that asshole will spend the rest of the round trying to fucking kill you for it. Why try to keep people out of your department when any attempt to do so gives them a reason to beat you to death. Minor IC crime being normalized has lead to major IC crime being normalized.

Edit:

Fixing stuff like that w code is certainly the preferred option, but you need to find someone who is willing to code it and someone who doesn't mind being in the cross-hairs of a bunch of players.

Considering your code activity, i doubt you'll be the one to pickup the tab anyways so policy should be fine until then.

Code can't replace the rules. You're going to run out of coders if this method keeps being tried.

How many coders have left /TG/ because of the playstyle the rules enforce and the playstyle the coders want?

[oranges]

lukewarm take shadow


code is rules, and we have plenty of coders

[Jzoid]

After coming back to the forums, it took me like a solid five minutes trying to figure out how to post a reply.

I think a big problem we can look at right now, is players aren't really rewarded for being good. Other than being considered for admin candidate. I mean sure, should players be rewarded for being good? It should just be the norm right? Well it's not the norm and we're really a bit deep to make it a norm without reward. "But players are punished for being bad", players are punished for breaking the rules, not being bad people. We still have stupid rules which say "Well as long as the body is found, an usually unjustifiable murder is a.o.k", we still have admins referring to people as an "IC issue" when in reality, it can be a bit more than that. You can be a bad player as long as you tiptoe the rules, we've had many instances where security members are straight up failing at their job or being condoms, such as Head of Security going to the bar every round and just drinking and being irresponsible, which at first was filed as an IC issue but after a few months, resulted in a job ban. After a few months. Players can murderbone freely, which isn't against the rules, nor am I suggesting it should be, but it's rather douchey. You can be a bad person/douchebag and as long as you don't break the rules it's okay. So we're in this spot where you're not rewarded for being a good player (other than players knowing you're good) and you're not punished for being a bad player (other than players knowing you're bad).

I'm pretty sure this is, be it worded correctly or not, TG-Station culture. TG-Station is the station you go to if you don't want to deal with powertripping admins at paradisestation, the furry cesspits of the other stations, and the activity that hippie, yogstation and goonstation don't provide. This is probably why it's the most or second successful server behind CM.

So I'm sure I just said something every one already knows, but saying a known problem is useless without a proposed solution, and here it is.

The Teachers Pet system.
I know the Karma System similar to paradisestation is taboo, so let's not call it that, let's call it the Teachers Pet Points, TPP for short.
A big problem with the Karma System in paradise, is anyone can give it out. This obviously creates meta-buddying. The solution? Admin only baby.
Each admin will be able to give TPP's to each player they feel was above the rest of the playerbase during the round. Perhaps the Captain made an actually interesting gimmick? Perhaps the Head of Security was efficient without being powertripping. Then give them a point.
What should be behind this? I don't know, you could do jobs, you could do races (such as the elusive cat race for 50k points so I never see anyone else play it again but people still strive for it), or even outfits. I'm not sure about assistants right now, I haven't played for a while, I just moved to a different continent, but if we're still on the randomised suit colours, then make the greysuit an accessible buy. Give borgs cool cosmetics. The warden and head of security locker are full of outfits that can be behind these points, which works into another problem in this thread "You don't know who's experienced". Make it so even after spending points, you can still keep a consistent track of how many you've had total. This can help admins actually, if you're looking for an admin candidate, you always check the notes, but rarely do admins log good things in their notes (or maybe I've just been a crapper and that's never happened to me), but it'll be easier to see how often admins have gone "this guy good", give admins an ability to write a dandy little note if you want when they give a point, like "Deescalated a situation perfectly as HoS"


That's my wacky crazy original idea for the thread.

I'll respond to others.

You need to lead by example. Play the kind of characters you want to play with. Otherwise nothing is going to change.

This is lowkey lazy responses to issues like this. When it's so ingrained into the culture, which it is, a player being different won't change the culture, especially when the rest of the players are the same.





"Constant Tiding"
Honestly, until there's code in for tiding to be less encouraged, git gud and wack them on their butts.

"Refusual to let people in their job do their job"
There is some level of trust issues behind this like others have stated. I think a simple solution to this would be a title system. With play hours, your job gets mini titles. So for example
Medical
0-5 hours
"Studying Medical Officer"
5-10 hours
"Nurse"
10-20 hours
"Medical Officer" (Standard)
20-50 hours
"Doctor"
50+ hours
"Senior Doctor"
This at least gets rid of the trust issues, if you see someone with a title of experience you'd probably be willing to throw it over to them. Or if you see a "Certified Douchebag Virologist" you probably know it's Lexie Black type and that they could release a virus taking you out.

"Respect
Honestly this just comes with earning it, the previous part can come into use, but I was more likely to be scared of Sloan as an assistant rather than some nameless HoS because I knew who Sloan was.

[Jzoid]

E S C A L A T I O N.

Why bother enforcing your authority when that asshole will spend the rest of the round trying to fucking kill you for it. Why try to keep people out of your department when any attempt to do so gives them a reason to beat you to death. Minor IC crime being normalized has lead to major IC crime being normalized.

In the Escalation Rules:
Exceptions: Security is expected not to retaliate with random abuse or violence unless the person in question is otherwise eligible for execution. You can't kill or maim security for trying to arrest you for legitimate reasons.

Use security. If they're breaking space law, and the security reacts appropriately, and the player decides to kill the security officer, that player is suitable for a bwoink.

[Actionb]

Server culture. Such an old meme.
The only things constant are this server's "culture" and threads complaining how said culture has gotten worse.

Came back for a bit after a year's pause - and players acted just the same as they always have.
"Everything was better in the past!" must be some kinda psychological perception bias thing.

If culture hasn't changed over at least 6 years... there must be a reason. Maybe you should figure that one out first, before planning a new paint job.

Also: you require tangible rewards to do something good? Either you are a dog or a hypocrite.

[deedubya]

-big snip-

I think you missed the entire point I was trying to make. You're looking purely from an OOC perspective, whereas I want to enforce more in-character respect with OOC policy. If you decide to sign up for a role, you should be doing that role to the best of your ability, and not trying to ursurp every single other job on the station with unhealthy levels of entitlement. This isn't a single player game, and players are expected to at least commit to a minimal amount of roleplay as it relates to the setting. It's not HRP to expect people to respect the boundaries of workplaces, not tide their way into everything and anything, and refrain from being heavily armed vigilantes on a constant basis.

If you have an issue with the culture developed by the vast majority of the server, are you positive you aren't the problem?

There are servers that offer exactly what you have asked for in this thread. TG isn't one. I play TG because I enjoy all of the things you listed as problems. I enjoy being able to run around and have fun without being bwoinked by an admin because I picked up a crowbar while I was not part of engineering or I cured a disease and saved everyone when I wasn't part of medical or I managed to avenge the crew by killing a serial killer despite not being security.

Very positive. This server used to be better in regards to basic shit like this. I know this community is capable of better than it currently is, because I've seen it first hand. I don't know what series of events led us down this slippery slope of zero fucks given, but it's not a good place to be in, and we need to find solutions to it. Of course, the "easy" solution you've presented is to just fuck off to Citadel or Bay, but why should well-intentioned players have to abandon a community they care about instead of try to solve the toxic atmosphere it developed?

Fixing stuff like that w code is certainly the preferred option, but you need to find someone who is willing to code it and someone who doesn't mind being in the cross-hairs of a bunch of players.

Considering your code activity, i doubt you'll be the one to pickup the tab anyways so policy should be fine until then.

Not sure if this was directed at me or Nox, but either way. If I had the knowledge or ability to properly code I would definitely make an attempt. Although that being said, I don't see how this situation can be improved through code that wouldn't also hamper the benefits of having such a "free" system in place. As mentioned prior, being able to partake in understaffed departmental activity during lowpop, emergencies, or traitor activity is a welcome addition. The fact that it's constantly abused by bad actors shouldn't necessitate changes or removal, as that would adversely affect the people using it properly. That's why I think policy changes are more appropriate.

-another big snip-

I honestly like the thought process behind this, but I'm not so sure effectively increasing the workload on admins to essentially hand out "good boy points" is going to work out. Perhaps it might work if we had certain senior players that are already established as "good boys" to hand these out during a round, it might work. Obviously full on peer review wouldn't work, since as you described metagangs would just knock each other up regardless of their actual activity. I think your idea has merit, but adding another responsibility to an often overtaxed admin team isn't the way to do it, I think.

[deedubya]

Also: you require tangible rewards to do something good? Either you are a dog or a hypocrite.

It's a legitimate point. Some people see this as a game that you have to win at all costs, rather than the interactive experience that it actually is. With that mindset, why would you be "good", when being "bad" isn't forbidden by the rules and always puts you in a better position to "win"? You either need to reward people for acting with good interests and making the experience better as a whole, or tighten the leash so that bad intentioned players have less wiggle room to shit up the place.

[Jzoid]

the rewards aren't supposed to be game changing
some people just like their cosmetics: see fortnite kids
yeah i'm comparing this playerbase to fortnite kids

also i don't think anyone has made a comparison to how the server used to be, for as long as i remember, the servers playerbase has always been murderboney scummy, because that is the culture of the server.

[teepeepee]

So I'm sure I just said something every one already knows, but saying a known problem is useless without a proposed solution, and here it is.

The Teachers Pet system.
I know the Karma System similar to paradisestation is taboo, so let's not call it that, let's call it the Teachers Pet Points, TPP for short.
A big problem with the Karma System in paradise, is anyone can give it out. This obviously creates meta-buddying. The solution? Admin only baby.

are you implying admins don't/can't have metabuddies?
admins are practically a metabuddy club
what if admins don't like you? are you just fucked?
this is not a good idea at all in my oppinion

[Actionb]

Also: you require tangible rewards to do something good? Either you are a dog or a hypocrite.

It's a legitimate point. Some people see this as a game that you have to win at all costs, rather than the interactive experience that it actually is. With that mindset, why would you be "good", when being "bad" isn't forbidden by the rules and always puts you in a better position to "win"? You either need to reward people for acting with good interests and making the experience better as a whole, or tighten the leash so that bad intentioned players have less wiggle room to shit up the place.

The flaw is the assumption that 'bad' people (those that you have mentioned) can be conditioned to stop doing bad things if promised enough rewards (like a dog).
Kind-hearted people do good things regardless of prospects of rewards.
For anyone inbetween this would be not much more than stats. Decided on a whim, you either do good things because it makes you feel good or you don't because you don't care right now. Interweb circlejerk points don't affect that decision enough.
For some of those inbetween, this would be self gratification points; doing good to get points and not for the sake of doing good (hypocrite).

And then there is the question of how to admin this. Admins can't be entirely impartial, nor can they always be there to give you your electronic pat on the head. What would the shitter do if they notice that they didn't get the rewards they damn well deserved?

the rewards aren't supposed to be game changing
some people just like their cosmetics: see fortnite kids
yeah i'm comparing this playerbase to fortnite kids

also i don't think anyone has made a comparison to how the server used to be, for as long as i remember, the servers playerbase has always been murderboney scummy, because that is the culture of the server.

If they are not meant to be game changing then... why bother?
And if the culture hasn't changed... why is there a need to 'fix' it? If this game wasn't fun enough as it is, you would be doing something else instead of posting here.
Not trying to be an asshole here, just trying to make obvious that this kind of thread only exists to vent steam.

[Jzoid]

So I'm sure I just said something every one already knows, but saying a known problem is useless without a proposed solution, and here it is.

The Teachers Pet system.
I know the Karma System similar to paradisestation is taboo, so let's not call it that, let's call it the Teachers Pet Points, TPP for short.
A big problem with the Karma System in paradise, is anyone can give it out. This obviously creates meta-buddying. The solution? Admin only baby.

are you implying admins don't/can't have metabuddies?
admins are practically a metabuddy club
what if admins don't like you? are you just fucked?
this is not a good idea at all in my oppinion

admins definitely have meta-buddies
however, they're expected not to have this bias shine through
everyone having access to boost their meta-buddies is worse than the possibility that these trusted members, trusted enough to ban everyone, will boost their metabuddy.

if you manage to get every single admin out there to hate you, then likely you've done something wrong past one admin being a douchebag and letting his bias against you show.

If they are not meant to be game changing then... why bother?
And if the culture hasn't changed... why is there a need to 'fix' it? If this game wasn't fun enough as it is, you would be doing something else instead of posting here.
Not trying to be an asshole here, just trying to make obvious that this kind of thread only exists to vent steam.

again, drawing comparison to fortnite, we don't even have to stop at fortnite, we can go to minecraft (console), league of legends, dota 2, team fortress 2, planetside 2 (wow lots of 2's), call of duty, battlefield, any game with pay for comestics, people love cosmetics, enough to spend money on them, i mean how much did Apex Legends make within the first week as a free to play game, purely from cosmetics?

not every player loves cosmetics, but some players do, if your expectations of a change is to change everything and get everyone on the same brain-wave, you should change your expectations or just not bother making a change, but even if only a third of players start acting better, or even a quarter, or even a tenth, that's 30, 15, 10 players acting better each round.

and if you do want to put jobs or races behind it i guess that's on head admins.

everything has room for improvement, TG has been and still is my favourite server for SS13, that doesn't mean there's no room to improve. hell the first thing that comes up when you open the server is a changelog saying what's been changed. just because many people aren't disgusted by it doesn't mean there aren't room to improve.

referring to your other part of your post which i editted out of the quote, i'll say what i said again earlier on:
you will not change everyone
you can not change everyone
those who are doing good will be rewarded
those who are vastly being douche-bags won't change
however there's not just two groups on the server, good people and bad people, and even then, good people aren't just definitely good, bad people aren't just definitely bad, there's levels to this, not black and white. i do think we'd see a change, those who act a bit crappy and those who are inbetween will probably be inclined to act better in terms for rewards, and those who are new to the servers when we get another [youtube]tide will see a grind and will more likely go towards the grind than no rewards.

[teepeepee]

everyone having access to boost their meta-buddies is worse than the possibility that these trusted members, trusted enough to ban everyone, will boost their metabuddy.

I'm not saying we should have it but players give points instead of admins, I"m saying we shouldn't have a social credit system at all

[Istoprocent1]

I got a solution.

What if... we incentivize playing Security?

The real problem tends to be the fact that only a handful of masochistic people and a handful of newfriends take on the role, which leads to situations where there are 60 players on the server with 4+ antags and only up to 4 security memebers. Tiders tide freely, because security cannot deal with tiders and antags at the same time and every tider expects 15 minutes of RP with security out of a 5 minute sentence.

Brownie points aren't an incentive in my humble opinion. Getting antag rep/tokens for every X rounds you have played security sounds much better.

[cedarbridge]

You need to lead by example. Play the kind of characters you want to play with. Otherwise nothing is going to change.

This sounds good until you realize that it doesn't cure the problem. People who talk get killed. The you don't generate converts by existing

Edit: I've always kinda found omni-diciplinarianship kinda distasteful. I make a point to try to avoid it as much as possible. If something breaks in medbay when I'm playing a chemist, I PDA the CE. I don't break into engineering to loot metal and tools to fix it. That was always my expectation of how things were meant to work in the first place. Everyone has a role and then depends on those others in other roles to play their parts. It turns out that players in those roles kinda appreciate the attention and deference too. However, I get the feeling that those sorts of interactions are sadly the exception rather than the rule. Why call engineering when every assistant and the clown is carrying a small satelite of metal and glass in their pants pockets next to their arsenal of weapons?

[Jzoid]

I got a solution.

What if... we incentivize playing Security?

The real problem tends to be the fact that only a handful of masochistic people and a handful of newfriends take on the role, which leads to situations where there are 60 players on the server with 4+ antags and only up to 4 security memebers. Tiders tide freely, because security cannot deal with tiders and antags at the same time and every tider expects 15 minutes of RP with security out of a 5 minute sentence.

Brownie points aren't an incentive in my humble opinion. Getting antag rep/tokens for every X rounds you have played security sounds much better.

"Getting antag rep/tokens for every x rounds you have played security officer sounds much better"
Wouldn't this just incentivize people to play security, not to play security well? I think we tried a point modifier to your antag chances before based on playing Head of Staff or Security, and a similiar result happened where people would flag up important rolls and security and then just play badly.
It doesn't matter if there's an extra person playing security if they're going to be a power-tripping or just a condom security.

Those masochistic people you said who already play security will get rewarded for their bad play styles with this.

More so, incentive to play security should be from making security fun, right now it's not. For me, I would play between assistant security, though I always chose assistant because of maintenance access. Which goes onto another point, a lot of people prefer assistant over the other roles because, very simply, you get more access out of it. Not much interesting stuff happens in engineering, science and medical are always easily accessible due to being high traffic areas. Removing maint access from assistants or giving everyone else maint access will stop assistant spam.

e: I should clear up the upper paragraph and what maint access as assistant has to do with less security players
assistant and security players are of the same coin, they both are action based.
when you pick assistant, you can not play security, as assistant is separate from the other jobs. this means when you get antagonist, you're blocked out of maintenance as you can't be security and an antag apart from on those rare rounds where it's turned on in the config. maintenance is massive for every antag, the AI can't see in there.
if you're hoping for antags, you'd probably turn assistant on so you can get that maintenance access. of course you can pick engineering, but if you somehow end up as engineering non-antag and you have no idea how to engineer (like i don't) then you're hecked

basically remove assistant maint access or give everyone maint access and according to my reach it may give incentive for more security playing.

[teepeepee]

"Getting antag rep/tokens for every x rounds you have played security officer sounds much better"
Wouldn't this just incentivize people to play security, not to play security well? I think we tried a point modifier to your antag chances before based on playing Head of Staff or Security, and a similiar result happened where people would flag up important rolls and security and then just play badly.
It doesn't matter if there's an extra person playing security if they're going to be a power-tripping or just a condom security.

Those masochistic people you said who already play security will get rewarded for their bad play styles with this.

I'll repeat what the expectation was when heads gave more antag rep, if people played them badly just to get points they would eventually get banned because of the higher responsabilities of the role they're not fulfilling if they're "playing badly"
much like how most sec players eventually get banned because admins are so much more focused on them because they are much more involved in conflicts
perhaps this expectation was wrong then and it would be wrong now, but I see no reason to believe it still

[cedarbridge]

"How do I get more antag" is exactly the sort of cultural mentality problem that this thread is trying to fight against in the first place.

Stop trying to use antag roles as rewards you cretins.

[Jzoid]

"Getting antag rep/tokens for every x rounds you have played security officer sounds much better"
Wouldn't this just incentivize people to play security, not to play security well? I think we tried a point modifier to your antag chances before based on playing Head of Staff or Security, and a similiar result happened where people would flag up important rolls and security and then just play badly.
It doesn't matter if there's an extra person playing security if they're going to be a power-tripping or just a condom security.

Those masochistic people you said who already play security will get rewarded for their bad play styles with this.

I'll repeat what the expectation was when heads gave more antag rep, if people played them badly just to get points they would eventually get banned because of the higher responsabilities of the role they're not fulfilling if they're "playing badly"
much like how most sec players eventually get banned because admins are so much more focused on them because they are much more involved in conflicts
perhaps this expectation was wrong then and it would be wrong now, but I see no reason to believe it still

it often takes a while for bad security players to get punished, and that's because, like i said earlier in this post, you can be bad whilst not breaking the rules, most of those players who were bad security players and got punished, they didn't even break rules to get punished, the admins just got sick of them after a couple of months. then there were always notorious security members who were objectively bad but never got punished.

people shouldn't be rewarded for play time, any idiot can log onto a job each round, people should be rewarded for playing well tbhtbh, that's how you dismantle a mindset, which is what this thread is about. the idea of giving an increased chance of antag based on roles you play is objectively a bad idea that doesn't directly tackle the problem (if you see it as a problem) proposed by the thread.

if you like the idea of people being rewarded for extra antag opportunities, you can always tie it into the Teachers Pet Points system with, say "increase chance of antag by 20% for 3 rounds for 5 points", but this in of itself is a problem as it could create an inflation of antagonists.

using antagonist as a reward is genuinely a bad idea for rewarding good behaviour as it just cycles back to cruddy behaviour tbh, reminder, being an antag gives people less rules, meaning more tip-toeing, and more ability to be scummy and unfun to the round, such as stupid ebow+esword combos.

also what cedar said. antag shouldn't be everything about this game, this game at first should be roleplaying on a station with your job, at second, trying to survive the disasters on station.

[Istoprocent1]

"How do I get more antag" is exactly the sort of cultural mentality problem that this thread is trying to fight against in the first place.

Stop trying to use antag roles as rewards you cretins.

Hol up. There are multiple aspects to the game. One of them undeniably is the skinner box type of thing of being an antag and doing whatever you want. That should be the reward for taking responsibility for a few rounds and not acting like a complete brainlet.

Security players are carrying more weight than other roles and should be rewarded accordingly, which causes people gravitate towards playing security roles and the really bad apples getting picked out.

[cedarbridge]

"How do I get more antag" is exactly the sort of cultural mentality problem that this thread is trying to fight against in the first place.

Stop trying to use antag roles as rewards you cretins.

Hol up. There are multiple aspects to the game. One of them undeniably is the skinner box type of thing of being an antag and doing whatever you want. That should be the reward for taking responsibility for a few rounds and not acting like a complete brainlet.

Security players are carrying more weight than other roles and should be rewarded accordingly.

I'm on record stating very clearly that Rule 4 was a mistake.

[Istoprocent1]

Jzoid, the teacher's pet system aka. brownie points doesn't work. It adds another layer of subjective opinion on the game. Admins are imperfect beings like the rest of us. There should be a completely neutral in-game mechanic to decrease/increase any possible brownie points, if any.

Give secs extra rep/tokens for antags shipped out alive (make brig pod a brig area for the purpose of escaping - at the moment its a regular pod and even cuffed antags count as escaped without being in custody).
Give meds extra rep/tokens for good escape survival rate.
Give engs extra rep/tokens for station integrity.

Fuck the whole science department.

Only give extra rep/tokens for people who readied up at the round start to avoid situations where somebody joins in 2 minutes before the round end and reaps the benefits of others' hard work.

[Cobby]

Code can't replace the rules. You're going to run out of coders if this method keeps being tried.

How many coders have left /TG/ because of the playstyle the rules enforce and the playstyle the coders want?

Very few compared to the coders that have left /tg/ because of the playstyle that we've moved away from i imagine.

If you're trying to apply causality of code changes to why coders have left, are you telling me the playstyle we're supposedly now pushing away from killed kor?

The code and rules work together, both reacting to changes in the other. The reason why it may not have been so obvious in the past is because plenty of previous headmins such as Lzi and HG and Kor had hands in the code as well.

---

@deb my post was more for nox but I guess it applies to anyone who vouches for code changes but doesn't actually contribute changes, regardless of reason.

In terms of autonomy, you can't have your cake and eat it too. It's not right to allow for protagonism code-wise then ban people for playing like OMAs. We could compensate for lowpop but otherwise you'd have to you have to make tradeoffs if you want less heroes and more crewman. That said, you don't have to outright bar players from performing actions. There's definitely a lot of wiggle room.

Reminder though that antags are responsive to core gameplay changes. IE if it becomes harder to do X, antag gear that forces you to do X should be shifted appropriately (IE if construction is a pain, bombs should be less easily accessible).

[Malkraz]

lol

[Omni]

On topic of security, let's try to think of why are people playing sec in the long run, discounting new people getting allured to it (and fail miserably every time) and complete shitters.
1. They enjoy conflict (and of course power) more than others.
2. They enjoy SS13/TG's combat system, and believe themselves to be good enough to handle it.
3. They are generally more likely to accept added responsibility, especially before admins. If they weren't they would be just antaging, playing miner, or something, instead of playing sec.
4. They accept that basically no matter what you do you will get shit on both IC and OOC. Lets face it, it doesn't really matter what you do as sec, or even if you "win" or lose, you will inevitably get called shitcurity for one reason or another, rightfully or not.
I think that's more or less all there is. So how do you make more people play security? You can't make individuals more inclined towards conflict. You can change combat system, and such efforts are already being made (I honestly doubt it will bring many more people to play sec, but we shall see, it's not main point of the changes anyways I believe). If you remove added responsibility you will let bad people into security and they will inevitably ruin everyone's life. And you can't make people like having such responsibility. And you can't just policy people to respect sec more or something.

Cedar is right at that antag being considered a reward and desirable way to play game is core of the problem. But as TG is, what iso proposes at least sounds like something implementable and something that could realistically generate some results, if done smartly.

[deedubya]

"How do I get more antag" is exactly the sort of cultural mentality problem that this thread is trying to fight against in the first place.

Stop trying to use antag roles as rewards you cretins.

Not exactly. If you actually do roll antag, then the sky's the limit. I don't give a shit what actual antags do. It's their literal job to provide conflict to the station. My concerns lay around the people that provide unhealthy levels of conflict when they haven't rolled antag or been converted to one. I don't believe in unhealthy levels of "muh antag round is sacred" bullshittery, but actual antags are not the focus here.


Although, I do appreciate the idea of them being used as a carrot stick for people that play roles that carry more responsibility. Giving you higher RNG weight based on the roles you play seems like an ideal solution, honestly. The additional percentage would accrue cumulatively until the next time you roll a roundstart antag, at which point it's spent and you start over from scratch. Here's a crude idea of how I think it should go:
Captain/Security: Adds the highest amount to your percentage rate, as these roles are literally incapable of being antag. Sacrificing your ability to roll for that round should carry a hefty reward, as it were.
Heads of staff: Adds a moderate amount to your overall rate. These are high responsibility roles with minimum expectations of the people playing them, so people should be rewarded as such.
Whatever role the admins feel isn't being played enough: Adds a small amount to your overall rate. Consider this an incentive for people to pick roles that aren't getting much love. This should be editable in the config, so headmins can change it on the fly.
Every other role: No change to your RNG weight.
Assistant: Removes a small-to-moderate amount from your percentage, making you less likely to roll antag every time you roll an assistant. If you don't want to assume any responsibility and refuse to take a job that's "guaranteed" to have a positive impact on the round, you should be less likely to be "rewarded" with an antag roll.

[Kingfish]

you roll antag first, then you roll for job. if you don’t get antag, then you become eligible to roll for antag-protected roles (sec). choosing to roll for sec doesn’t sacrifice shit. also, isn’t that literally the same as antag rep?

[Arianya]

this is like the textbook definition of a bad policy thread because it's just going "sip remember the good old days" without any actual concrete suggestions.

The closest the OP comes to making suggestions are "rule 10 exists!!" which is basically meaningless and "enforce rule 7 more" without any actual concrete suggestion as to what metric should be used. Oddly enough the admins do know the rules but just shouting rule numbers at us does not a long term policy for enforcement make

[NecromancerAnne]

I'm actually a serial tider but it's largely that there is a real lack of means for interdepartmental communication and generally just being really fed up with being either ignored or incompetence.

Genuinely when I want to help I often get ignored or insulted for trying to bring knowledge to people who are in the roles for them to act on, so it is REALLY annoying when they are obviously incorrect and actively combative and hostile from the get-go.

This also counts when I'm antag. I don't always switch on the murder straight up. I do it in response to hostility when I'm actively being helpful (because you often get away with stuff better under the veneer of being an asset or actually BEING an asset). One round as mime I literally stopped a delamination after getting the access to engineering only to have the current engineers attempt to physically assault me while I'm stopping their huge blunder. So I killed them all with finger guns and started butchering the responding crew en masse because I wanted to stop that delam to get a sliver.

If you want a job done right, do it yourself is really my go-to. It's mostly as a result of just being let down constantly though.

[Actionb]

...but it's largely that there is a real lack of means for interdepartmental communication...

Actually, good point. The best way to get people to not be shit to each other is to force them to cooperate (a result of which is a need to communicate).
I feel like this game (tg), in favour of a more casual game style, has always shied away from requiring heavy cooperation. Which isn't a bad thing imho.
"More interaction!" was always on the agenda, but never really got anywhere, because in a lot matters there simply exists no credible reason to cooperate and one must always be able to do anything.
Sure you can artificially impose a need to interact, but this would require RP - something this server is deliberately light on.
Meaning that this side of the problem (people not working together) cannot really be solved.

[Stickymayhem]

My one input to this thread is that the hub is not the problem.

The Ssethtiders roleplay better than any of you fucks. I've run events on all the servers for 5 years and no one is worse than the experienced players at interacting with actual content admins generate. Event hall is the last bastion of decent people who dont immediately strip every events potential to get as much powergaming gear as possible and riot as soon as something breaks the meta.

I unironically experience, with every single event, ahelps of "HOW IS X ON THE STATION WHEN IT'S A TRAITOR ROUND" or shit like that on every other server.

Culture can only be dictated by the players, and you have to be the change you want to see. Engage with your colleagues and stop trying to just fucking win all the time. There are no leaderboards and there's no reward for winning. The goal should be to make fun stories.

[Grazyn]

In the good old days we used to have a page showing K/D for the top 100 players, that's how RP old tgstation was. Low pop rounds were basically 30 ghosts observing the traitor/wizard spawnkill everyone with the same meta-gear round after round. I think RP in an embryonic form only started to appear after the second server was introduced (back when it wasn't even called Basil yet) and it was basically just metafriends helping each other regardless of antag status while anyone who wasn't in the cool kids club who tried to interfere or *gasp* have fun playing the game was instantly yeeted. Also ERP.

The good old days never existed

[Reyn]

We need to make a new golden age, if the "Good old days" never existed. Admins need to enforce the rules a bit more.

[ThanatosRa]

Golden Ages are a fallacy.

[Reyn]

Golden Ages are a fallacy.

You're right, but we can still make this place better.

[NecromancerAnne]

The Ssethtiders roleplay better than any of you fucks.

I've run some RP heavy events. Just tempered with powergame so my event characters aren't immediately murdered. You have to treat it a bit like how you treat NPC's in tabletops. Some players interface with the plot. Some just like to break a simulated world to see what happens because there are no consequences (although in this case there can be if the event in question didn't warrant aggressive behavior or the character wasn't valid AKA most centcomm officials off the dock). Therefore you need to make the NPC's formidable without making it too overbearing to completely deter the latter group altogether, because overcoming incredible odds is part of the fun and a story unto itself.

That being said, many people fall into the latter category on the server since it is at its core a game about experimentation and powergame. That's the core fun for many people.

[oranges]

itt serial tiders discuss how to get to a pov they're not even capable of grasping