Fixing server culture with policy

[deedubya]

Bottom post of the previous page:

I'd like to present some threads made recently.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=23996 - A thread complaining about constant tiding and the consequences of it
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24092 - A thread lamenting how basic RP standards have gone down the shitter
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 33&t=23995 - A thread that discusses how experienced players refuse to take roles with responsibilities attached
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 10&t=23712 - A thread that complains about how you can't just tide your entitled ass into medical and self-heal anymore without even interacting with the people that actually work that job

All of these things are a subset of a larger issue: How the server culture has shifted for the worse over time. There's zero respect for role adherence. There's zero respect for authority. There's zero respect for common sense. People feel entitled to absolutely everything on the station regardless of what role they're playing. This causes authority figures to throw their hands up and give up playing the role, or stop playing it properly. (read this thread: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24018 "I could use space law but lets be real here no-one uses it (and those that do don't get very far)") The people that do try to keep order on a station full of entitled fuckwits wind up labeled as shitcurity and fun ruiners, then get mobbed IC and ridiculed OOC. It's ridiculous. This expectation that the captain/security should be your personal doormat is so out of hand it's actually become a real thing. The expectation that any role should be able to waltz in and do every job is one that never should have taken root in the first place. The chef shouldn't even fucking have CQC in their kitchen, but it was deemed necessary because so many people felt entitled to the food within the kitchen when there is an active chef on duty that the coders had to find a solution when policy failed the server. This isn't a solution that can be solved with code, at least not without ruining the experience for everyone on lowpop.

What we need are solutions in policy to bring server culture away from the validhunting, entitled playstyle that has defined this server for several months now. Ways to discourage and punish chronic shit disturbers instead of just marking it as "IC issue" and moving on, when it's known damn well that the issue will never be dealt with ICly. People will probably scream and holler about "muh escalation", but that's only one piece of policy and it will only possibly solve one of the issues when reworked, if it even does that.

Honestly, I think everyone that plays this game has forgotten Rule 10, and that's causing the issues we have. People feel entitled to their gamer gear. They don't want to be inconvenienced in any way by a traitor, having to wait for a department to fulfill requests for them, or security to handle disputes for them. Perhaps policy should be implemented to make Rule 10 an actually enforceable rule, insofar as that excessive powergaming should be punishable. Likewise, Rule 7 should be enforced much more often, as many of the behaviors I described above are just examples of playing fast and loose with the rules, often line-toeing and acting against the spirit of the law.

[oranges]

itt serial tiders discuss how to get to a pov they're not even capable of grasping

[Shadowflame909]

The only way to survive burnout is to play a job with so much content/rng that it's unsurmountable in the average time-span of a /tg/ round

Tldr; try to complete a job with a 1 hour - endless time-limits like chef, xenobio or mining, and have that all crash and burn within 20 minutes.

The POV you gain from this is that the best way to play the game is to play it on endless mode so you don't cop a ban from being a shitter.

Edit: All in all. A semi-coded solution will come eventually. Genetics will get more content via the combination system. And chemistry will one day not have all its fun locked behind antag since it's just grief chems.

[deedubya]

this is like the textbook definition of a bad policy thread because it's just going "sip remember the good old days" without any actual concrete suggestions.

The closest the OP comes to making suggestions are "rule 10 exists!!" which is basically meaningless and "enforce rule 7 more" without any actual concrete suggestion as to what metric should be used. Oddly enough the admins do know the rules but just shouting rule numbers at us does not a long term policy for enforcement make

Selective enforcement of the rules and different standards for different admins is an issue, though. Saying "you guys should enforce the rules that already exist" isn't an invalid point, especially when a lack of enforcement has led to the current day situation.

Although, I also created the thread to get differing >opinions and brainstorm more concrete solutions. Antag rep seems like a pretty solid method of at least coaxing less tiding and more role responsibility, but I'm a bit at a loss for how to deal with powergamers and omnidisciplinarians apart from just keeping an eye on them and noting them for repeated poor behavior. There's also the escalation rework that Hulk is supposedly working on that might help matters a bit.

[TothBrush]

E S C A L A T I O N.

Why bother enforcing your authority when that asshole will spend the rest of the round trying to fucking kill you for it. Why try to keep people out of your department when any attempt to do so gives them a reason to beat you to death. Minor IC crime being normalized has lead to major IC crime being normalized.

The round that caused me to get permabanned from tg was a round where the HOP spent 40 minutes trying to remove my limbs and wouldn't leave me the fuck alone because I pushed them. Once. One single disarm intent click = 40 minutes of security abuse and anasthetic while on the surgery operating table.
The reply I got was:

Do you think that maybe if you stopped running around starting fights with people via disarm spam and other minor greytide, you might manage to spend some rounds without being horizontal, or do you actually just want to be able to greytide with no real IC consequence?

Everyone fundamentally knows on a meta level that ss13 is a game and therefore the vast majority of the playerbase only plays for the sole purpose of getting the biggest meta value out of this game that they can. All they want is to make the largest number of people as mad as possible without getting banned. That's why people make maxcaps and murderbone when they're given traitor and that's why people validhunt. It's all for the glory of knowing that somewhere out there, someone is sitting at their computer and feeling so mad at ss13 that they tab out and do something else until next round.


OP isn't longing for better days when the server was filled with optimistic people enjoying a roleplaying game. That never existed. OP is longing for Aug 14 2018, back before HE knew everything and back before HE realized how shallow and empty this game was once you scratch beneath the surface level and learn everything. Back before he realized that the CMO didn't know fucking anything more about medcine than he did, and that the security players were all stupider and less robust than he was.

OP I am sorry to say that it will never come back. No matter how many rounds you play and no matter what server you go to, you will never be surrounded by people who genuinely just want to have fun and learn the game. The game always has been and always will be infested with people who are going to do whatever they can to validhunt you and the games mechanics only exist to be abused.

[Cobby]

just cause you're a shitler doesn't mean everyone else is anon

[wesoda25]

Everyone fundamentally knows on a meta level that ss13 is a game and therefore the vast majority of the playerbase only plays for the sole purpose of getting the biggest meta value out of this game that they can. All they want is to make the largest number of people as mad as possible without getting banned. That's why people make maxcaps and murderbone when they're given traitor and that's why people validhunt. It's all for the glory of knowing that somewhere out there, someone is sitting at their computer and feeling so mad at ss13 that they tab out and do something else until next round.

This is the dumbest fucking take I've seen in ages and is exactly why you are permabanned.

OP isn't longing for better days when the server was filled with optimistic people enjoying a roleplaying game. That never existed. OP is longing for Aug 14 2018, back before HE knew everything and back before HE realized how shallow and empty this game was once you scratch beneath the surface level and learn everything. Back before he realized that the CMO didn't know fucking anything more about medcine than he did, and that the security players were all stupider and less robust than he was.

Certain parts of this are honestly very true, but not for the reasons you believe. Everyone is reminiscent for the early days of tg when it was fun and bright and everyone was new and interesting. Its not that the server aged and got worse, its that you aged, and see it for what it really is. Its exactly what happened to me, I long for the early days when I started, but in all honesty those times weren't very different from what the current server culture is, which grows more annoying to me by the day.

[TothBrush]

All I'm saying is that you're all glorifying the good old days but the fact of the matter is that at no point in ss13 history has this game ever been anything better than overrun by people who do nothing but go out of their way to fuck over your round just because they know every ahelp is going to be met with "IC issue" outside of literally killing you for no reason.

This is the dumbest fucking take I've seen in ages and is exactly why you are permabanned.

Except it's fucking accurate. That's the reason people destroy xenobiology right before they kill themselves to wait for mid round antag. That's the reason robotics takes the metal and glass out of rnd and then bolts themselves inside their department despite starting with 100 sheets apiece. That's the reason non-antags will space your body for funsies. They're not doing it because they're utilizing fun in game mechanics, they're doing it because they know admins will never ban for "IC issues" and therefore it's a risk free way to get other people mad for literally no reason at all.
And my point is that it's always been like this and always will be.

[wesoda25]

You've been looking in a mirror far too long to try and make observations about other players

[Gamarr]

I'm a bit at a loss for how to deal with powergamers and omnidisciplinarians

This relates to an old issue: this is in part because almost every single Human player mob on the station is the same as every single other one. There are no stats/traits/skills to differentiate between an assistant or a scientist if you strip them naked and tossed them into a fight ring. It's all rng at that point/player knowledge.

This means that once they know something, they can basically be anyone, anywhere, on the station, and because of so many other enabling (read:shallow) mechanics, they can fly across the station to do any other single thing if the player knows how it works. There is no stopping them if the tools are there. That assistant can make an AM engine if he finds the parts and space. I don't think you can ultimately expect to stop powergaming at all in this kind of environment.
See it through the eyes of Assistant Greyshit: "I can do anything. What do I need You for?"

My point being that policy only goes so far, it has to have a mechanical foundation in the game to support it, too.

[TothBrush]

"I can do anything. What do I need You for?"

Should also mention the other side of the same coin is just as bad:

"Why should I heal you? I'm just a greytider in a doctor's outfit"
"Why should I upgrade cloning/xeno? I'm just a greytider in a labcoat."
ect.

Part of the reason the server is in such a shit place is that people who have clear responsibilities will just ignore their responsibilities and then validhunt people who try to do their job for them. I can't tell you how many times I've lost my shit and taken a break from ss13 because someone killed me "in self defense" while I was trying to get into rnd to upgrade medbay, or for trying to get into medbay storage.

[Davidchan]

Replace all assistants with lab monkeys that roam the station. Actual crew are free to do what they like with them. People who take regular jobs to greytide just get jobbanned. If you can't contribute more to the round than being an antag rolling, greytiding murderboner what good are you?

[cedarbridge]

Something's been sticking in my craw about the whole "Well I'll just go shit up some other role" line.

The majority of the issue is cultural, as the thread implies. We treat assistants as a no-responsibilities fuck around role but then give them access to every tool they need to be no-responsibilities power gaming fuckarounds. The other main roles, even when occupied by jerks using it for the access and nothing else, don't have that sort of in-grained cultural expectation. Cargo are known for being insular assholes, but you don't tend to see them tiding around. They've got a home and a job to do.

I'm honestly not seeing a downside to making assistant less desirable (it should never have been desirable in the first place) for veteran players and then just jobbanning people who are notably and obviously taking other roles (cargo and engineering typically) just to change jumpsuits and tide around as assistants anyway. Well, I take that back. I don't see a downside for anyone except the supposedly perpetually bored assistant mains who need the dopamine shot from their powergame loot hunting and antag hunting. If you don't want to play a space man on a space station then go play a better BR game.

[Reyn]

Something's been sticking in my craw about the whole "Well I'll just go shit up some other role" line.

The majority of the issue is cultural, as the thread implies. We treat assistants as a no-responsibilities fuck around role but then give them access to every tool they need to be no-responsibilities power gaming fuckarounds. The other main roles, even when occupied by jerks using it for the access and nothing else, don't have that sort of in-grained cultural expectation. Cargo are known for being insular assholes, but you don't tend to see them tiding around. They've got a home and a job to do.

I'm honestly not seeing a downside to making assistant less desirable (it should never have been desirable in the first place) for veteran players and then just jobbanning people who are notably and obviously taking other roles (cargo and engineering typically) just to change jumpsuits and tide around as assistants anyway. Well, I take that back. I don't see a downside for anyone except the supposedly perpetually bored assistant mains who need the dopamine shot from their powergame loot hunting and antag hunting. If you don't want to play a space man on a space station then go play a better BR game.

Actually, we have a rule for that.

Rule 5 Precedent 4

Abuse of position; as in being deliberately incompetent or malicious in their position is not allowed. Deliberate incompetence or malice can result in warnings or bans, depending on severity. Example would be a chemist constantly abusing the position to make space lube and lubing hallways, they may be warned and then jobbanned if further abuse happens.

In summary, if someone is DELIBERATELY not doing their job right and fucking up, or deliberetely using it to do things you're not supposed to do with it and be a greytider in a responsible player's clothing, This SHOULD result in warns and jobbans. However, by my experience, this never happens, as either A. I don't give enough detail, B. "It's fine for engineers to make deathmix for no reason or for the captain to get engineering to set up 17 fucking teslas or for the RD to purge the ai and replace aismov with laws which essentially say "Kill people who you're told to kill except me.", IC issue" , C. They never get around to the ahelp or instantly close it
D. I'm too impatient and ahelp the same issue multiple times, thus making me seem like a shitter. E. The person might be metafriends with the admin, F. Something I can't really think of at the minute, or something like personal stress, Or G. A mix of the above.

Policy enforcement needs to be done. I've been ahelp muted for ahelping things I wasn't directly involved in while observing a round, even though said things were overtly bullshit, although I understand why. I was probably not giving enough info or I was annoying. Still, Admins need to do work.

On the other side, people give the admins a lot of shit for enforcing the rules. Please don't. Also don't make a culture of "AHELP IS FOR PUSSIES." That means serious issues are never brought up. Ahelp issues you see. Seriously.


I lost my train of thought but... yeah.

[cedarbridge]

Something's been sticking in my craw about the whole "Well I'll just go shit up some other role" line.

The majority of the issue is cultural, as the thread implies. We treat assistants as a no-responsibilities fuck around role but then give them access to every tool they need to be no-responsibilities power gaming fuckarounds. The other main roles, even when occupied by jerks using it for the access and nothing else, don't have that sort of in-grained cultural expectation. Cargo are known for being insular assholes, but you don't tend to see them tiding around. They've got a home and a job to do.

I'm honestly not seeing a downside to making assistant less desirable (it should never have been desirable in the first place) for veteran players and then just jobbanning people who are notably and obviously taking other roles (cargo and engineering typically) just to change jumpsuits and tide around as assistants anyway. Well, I take that back. I don't see a downside for anyone except the supposedly perpetually bored assistant mains who need the dopamine shot from their powergame loot hunting and antag hunting. If you don't want to play a space man on a space station then go play a better BR game.

Actually, we have a rule for that.

Rule 5 Precedent 4

You missed my point. We typically do enforce minimal role expectations on roles that have a defined function. We don't do that with assisstants because there is no expectation. There's nothing. They're a blank slate "I'm the protag" role. So essentially they dodge R5P4 by being useless.

[Reyn]

Something's been sticking in my craw about the whole "Well I'll just go shit up some other role" line.

The majority of the issue is cultural, as the thread implies. We treat assistants as a no-responsibilities fuck around role but then give them access to every tool they need to be no-responsibilities power gaming fuckarounds. The other main roles, even when occupied by jerks using it for the access and nothing else, don't have that sort of in-grained cultural expectation. Cargo are known for being insular assholes, but you don't tend to see them tiding around. They've got a home and a job to do.

I'm honestly not seeing a downside to making assistant less desirable (it should never have been desirable in the first place) for veteran players and then just jobbanning people who are notably and obviously taking other roles (cargo and engineering typically) just to change jumpsuits and tide around as assistants anyway. Well, I take that back. I don't see a downside for anyone except the supposedly perpetually bored assistant mains who need the dopamine shot from their powergame loot hunting and antag hunting. If you don't want to play a space man on a space station then go play a better BR game.

Actually, we have a rule for that.

Rule 5 Precedent 4

You missed my point. We typically do enforce minimal role expectations on roles that have a defined function. We don't do that with assisstants because there is no expectation. There's nothing. They're a blank slate "I'm the protag" role. So essentially they dodge R5P4 by being useless.

nonono that was towards "Shitting up the other roles", we have a rule to support jobbans if that occurs.

[Krusvik]

Antag tokens will never be a reward to incentivize anything, they are primarily a debug tool to fix something retroactively, giving them out is like asking a doctor to prescribe the medication you don't need for the pleasurable side effects.

The only way to see the changes you want is to play the way you want to see others play, admins and coders can try to guide the server to limited success, but there will always be pushback from all sides at any attempt to change the natural progression of the community.

SS13 is many things, I'll bring up two: stakes and ethics.

Because of death and failure removing you from the round which can last anywhere up to 2 hours (excluding low-pop) with an average of 30 minutes, there are tangible stakes in the game. You are legitimately rewarded for knowing how to combat an issue, be it player or mechanical, and likewise, you are punished for your ignorance when you can't solve the issue. Your growth starts here, it doesn't need karma or antag tokens, you're going to learn the kind of player you are through fire and blood and no amount of admin/code bumper lanes is going to change that flow.

Because you can be a tiding shitter, that allows for people to not be a grey suit and instead rise above and be something more, I.E. a helpful, roleplaying doctor, or an empathetic security officer. Freedom is a spectrum, it will be thoroughly explored, this is why administrators prevent this dynamic from falling off into either extreme, it's a system that needs to be preserved but will invariably arrest control of itself from the product of its own negligence.

To conclude, my sentiment is not deflecting any concern about the community changing for better or worse, it's stating how it's going to happen. Pick a side.

[Calomel]

I am getting the impression people aren't just angry about "illegal" actions, but angry about asistants/validhunters existing in the first place,
and to me that smells like "stop liking what i don't like". Different people have different ways to play, and as a community
we should try to adapt to all of them. None are more "right" than others.

[cedarbridge]

I am getting the impression people aren't just angry about "illegal" actions, but angry about asistants/validhunters existing in the first place,
and to me that smells like "stop liking what i don't like". Different people have different ways to play, and as a community
we should try to adapt to all of them. None are more "right" than others.

When you have an almost infinite number of "ways to play" and each of those comes into conflict with the others in a way that makes one less tennable than the others, its obvious that the disadvantaged groups will complain. Saying that each should "adapt" to the others is a fun pipe dream but it doesn't really reflect an ideal state. Ideally our policy would determine an orientation as to how the players are generally meant to comport themselves through expectations.