Reactionary Balance: The Rule 0 Discussion

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Shadowflame909
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Reactionary Balance: The Rule 0 Discussion

Post by Shadowflame909 » #519523

So. We already have a rule that when enforced, effectively allows the admin-team to go "Dicks go away!" and gives them a nice ban.

This rule has been the dawn of an ancient era.

It's said good riddance to the Cuban Pete era.

George Melons has been knocked off the map.

Now I think, it must be enforced even more and onto a much more prime and hotly debated player-meta.

That meta being...
"The Game-Breaker."

SS13 is a game about the crew finding themselves on a sabotaged space shuttle. With a dark demented cult, a shapeshifting creature, a crewmember employed by the dark side of the force, or just wizards fucking around and using it as training grounds.

The main goal of this station is for players to do their jobs and tell Nanotransen about the benefits of space plasma so they can get rich.

While doing their boring jobs, they dodge black holes, killer mobs, anime and movie references, meteors, and the malicious entities toying with there station who's targetting them!

They either live to tell the tale of the station gone wrong, with the glorious first text they see being "You survived the events of the station." Or "You did not survive the events of the station" if they failed to do so.

Now to me, this is the plot of the game. This is where the game-breaker comes in.

They get a task. Die a great death that'll wow the station, kill a certain player and make there round a nightmare, steal a highly coveted item that is being guarded by the important crew and make there round a nightmare! Hijack the shuttle, and make your round and everyone else a nightmare.

The game-breaker sees this task. They go, "I know the best possible way to get this done...and get this. WITHOUT ANY OPPOSITION!"

Oh, this guy. They're your wildly hated and salted against murderboner.

E-sword + E-bow. Killed and cremated without even having a fighting chance.

You just got a virus and died in 5 seconds before you could even react to it.

How the hell did they figure out how to kill all of the crew so efficiently without any resistance? It doesn't matter. But this has a negative effect on what is and should be the core aspect of this game. This multiplayer game.

We generally have multiple antags because one person isn't supposed to blitz through and obliterate all of the station's inhabitants with no trouble. Also so multiple players get a swing at being the trouble maker of the shift. (Even though some do that anyway when it's not there turn.)

But the point is they figured out a way to make destroying everyone's round a cake-walk...and they do it all the time.

They're hated for it, berated and practically made infamous.

Any sign of this person having action causes people to scream "THEY'RE MOVING" or "BLANK IS ANTAG" to notify everyone to stop what they're doing. Because they're not going to be able to have much fun this round.

Admins intervene to bring the round back on course, sending ERTs or force summoning the shuttle. (If it doesn't summon itself thanks to the game realizing that somethings has gone terribly wrong when the majority of the playerbase who spawned in, is now dead.)

Balance changes get made around this person breaking features once used in moderation.

Yet they always find a new feature to break, to send the game off course once more and make it all about them. From multiplayer to singleplayer.

So if you're still here after reading/skimming all of that. My main question is, why do we go to this point and not draw the line sooner?

Admins constantly have to draw and mend the round because one person made it about them.

Going back to the Cuban Pete reference. They're pure history for constantly breaking the game and bringing all attention to them.

One of the most classic methods of game-breaking was the e-sword e-bow murderbone and it was for a long time. Constantly having admins sending ERTs and teams to keep the game moving forward. So said players didn't just camp arrivals and scope any potential players off.

Basically. A very small amount and very recognizable amount of players will constantly push the limits of what the game is and how it's supposed to be played by combining features and using them in ways none of the coders or admin team expected.

Why do we constantly in this day and age, allow people to make it all about them. Instead of simply telling them off/banning them for driving ss13 away from what it's supposed to be.

I think this issue has spiraled into the hands of the players. Shaming said infamous attention-grabbers and creating "meta-jokes" But honestly, and very recently. This has been made no longer viable.

So with this discussion, I hope to push the fold onto the Ckey viewers that are the admins and the rules.

Should we ultimately quit allowing players to turn /tg/ into a single-player game when they storm onto the scene? Drawing the ire and attention of every single player once they drop into a round.

It's nothing new, but I'm seeing a whole bunch of more recent examples.

What are your thoughts on this? Maybe I'm just making a mountain out of a mole-hill.

I honestly think we already have the rules in place to deal with what I dub "Game-Breaking".

Because once the game stops being about the crew trying to survive the events of an antagonist and instead turns into how long does it take for an admin-spawned event to stop the kill-streak of Toolboxes-The-Deathsquad with there newly found game-breaking gimmick. That's on the level of an admin basically handing them an instant kill rifle or a super-matter sword.

It stops being space station thirteen.
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Re: Reactionary Balance: The Rule 0 Discussion

Post by terranaut » #519529

is it so difficult to format a post properly
[🅲 1] [🆄 1] [🅼 1]

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Re: Reactionary Balance: The Rule 0 Discussion

Post by teepeepee » #519530

omg admin he robusted me ban he!!
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Re: Reactionary Balance: The Rule 0 Discussion

Post by Kingfish » #519531

unnerf e-lances
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Re: Reactionary Balance: The Rule 0 Discussion

Post by pugie » #519538

Kingfish wrote:unnerf e-lances
git gud
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Re: Reactionary Balance: The Rule 0 Discussion

Post by Istoprocent1 » #519542

I would disagree. We should enforce rule 0 less, because it is "the most subjective" rule out there opening up players to unjust punishments at the sole discretion of the admin - ie. you can get punished, because the admin felt like it.

Arrival camping was a problem, rules got updated and now we all know that it is a no-no (and even when written out there have been bans that took things too far, I recall somebody killing CMO in the arrivals during the Revolution and got banned). It would be much worse, when there weren't written rules and people literally had to "adminwho" to figure out whether they can play the game or not.

E-sword + E-bow combo isn't game breaking. E-bow got nerfed, problem solved.

@Shadowflam909 Try playing Paradise or Yog and you will eventually start appreciating the creative freedom /tg/ allows.
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Re: Reactionary Balance: The Rule 0 Discussion

Post by Sandshark808 » #519545

I disagree with this rule extension, but I swear to fuck the next time Dornan murders the entire crew I'm going to maxcap him and you should too.
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Re: Reactionary Balance: The Rule 0 Discussion

Post by PKPenguin321 » #519546

So you literally want us to "enforce rule 0 more" because, get this, "esword + ebow is gamebreaking..."
I'm getting second hand embarrassment from this thread :oops:
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Re: Reactionary Balance: The Rule 0 Discussion

Post by Sandshark808 » #519547

Fusion nerds got nae-naed, btw. Code solutions work, and they make shitters mad as fuck.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/47073
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Re: Reactionary Balance: The Rule 0 Discussion

Post by Shadowflame909 » #519549

PKPenguin321 wrote:So you literally want us to "enforce rule 0 more" because, get this, "esword + ebow is gamebreaking..."
I'm getting second hand embarrassment from this thread :oops:
agree to disagree


it was game-breaking at a point. Now not so much

A condensed version of my argument

"Aren't you guys tired of the classic ss13 shift being twisted and mutated into "Murderbone: Attention seeking. Admins better send an ERT to finish me off or else no one gets to enjoy /tg/ today."

Like holy shit we get it you can kill the entire crew thanks to this neat new meta trick you found by breaking the game again and again and again

Just sucks seeing the admins and the code itself, trying to circumvent bad behavior. Instead of knocking it down straight.

basically, if you murderbone so much when you get antag that admins have to constantly force call ERTs to deal with you/force call the shuttle. Do some sort of intervention because you made the antag round all about you. You should get some sort of warning to knock that off.

Reactionary Balance. It's already been done in the past for the more egregious offenders who made bomb caps come into existence.

I think the new meta is unironical unbalanced feature exploitation (it's a feature so you can't call it a bug)
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Re: Reactionary Balance: The Rule 0 Discussion

Post by Ispiria » #519553

Asher Clark says hello.

Except wait no he doesn't because we rule 0'd him for recurrent powergaming.

In other words, what are you talking about, Shadow? We already do this when it's egregious enough, you just want us to do it more? I'm confused as to the purpose of this thread.
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Re: Reactionary Balance: The Rule 0 Discussion

Post by wesoda25 » #519605

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Re: Reactionary Balance: The Rule 0 Discussion

Post by Tarchonvaagh » #519612

what is the point of this thread

TG
TG never changes
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Re: Reactionary Balance: The Rule 0 Discussion

Post by Analbifida » #519618

tl;dr
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Re: Reactionary Balance: The Rule 0 Discussion

Post by Reyn » #519624

"Reee use rule 0 more to punish people for murderbone"

Actuall,y On the contrary, I prefer that this doesn't happen too much, Unless something really fucky happens (IE, Antag actually does something which ruins the round Nigh permenantly,), And if someone attempts to murderbone, they also have the risk of getting fucking killed, and they're usually pretty loud about it. People send in ERTS to deal with this shit so they don't have to ban someone for having fun in a role where such fuckery is semi expected (UNLIKE NONANTAG ENGINEERS OR SEC OR NONANTAG CARGO, OR AT LEAST I SHOULDNT HAVE TO EXPECT THAT). Additionally, salt over antags killing people being enforced more often may lead to people weaponizing it against people, Which has happened on multiple other servers with rules against murderbone.

IF someone is using a busted strategy, such as E sword Plus E bow, there are counters, Including GANKING, In which case the Ebow's recharge delay is exploited by MULTIPLE PEOPLE ATTACKING AT ONCE AND YOU CANT STOP ALL OF THEM. If you got caught alone without proper gear for a fight like that, with a... relatively balanced set up, You're on your fucking own.

If someone however, Through tricking the admins through a tc trade to let them have it, or through just finding some broken combo which is in tc limits and isn't too annoying to pull off, It may become a problem. That's when ERTS are sent in without being asked for. When shit gets out of hand with a single murderboning twat.

If someone does this repetedly enough, This CAN result in a ban, but if enforcing powergame and murderbone stuff too harshly, especially when it's not also applied to nonantag shitlers in some cases when it might deserve to be implimented, Just ruins the day for antags.

If an antag is going loud, they need every advantage they can fucking get to stay alive.


EDIT: Sometimes I have no clue what the fuck I'm saying, And this is one of those times. Also, this is a "Ban Gene Ball" thread isnt it
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Re: Reactionary Balance: The Rule 0 Discussion

Post by FloranOtten » #519708

Honestly, treat muderboning like antag rolling. Roundstart suicide once is wierd but okay. Twice is getting dickish. Five times in a row cops you a ban.

If all you're doing every time you get antag is murderbone, it may be time to reconsider how you play.
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Re: Reactionary Balance: The Rule 0 Discussion

Post by Xlyana » #530380

just slip and robust them
e
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Re: Reactionary Balance: The Rule 0 Discussion

Post by oranges » #530420

admins should use rule zero more, but actually to get rid of people who I dont like
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Re: Reactionary Balance: The Rule 0 Discussion

Post by CPTANT » #530443

What percentage of rounds do you actually get killed in?
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: Reactionary Balance: The Rule 0 Discussion

Post by Vekter » #530716

I've always had the (apparently unpopular) opinion that we don't necessarily need a rule to actually get rid of someone who's an obvious strain on the community. If someone rolls up with a ckey like 'killalljews1488', it's pretty obvious they're not here in good faith. If someone's being a cunt, there really shouldn't be some specific rule to make them fuck off. This server is not, and never has been, a full democracy. I'd much rather the admins have the power to clean up the server if need be without having to worry about a bunch of spergs jumping down their throat the moment they do.
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Re: Reactionary Balance: The Rule 0 Discussion

Post by imsxz » #531483

if you don’t want to die to a murderboner then kill them. if they’re legit impossible or near impossible to kill (like literally can not be killed at all. Just because someone kills a deathsquad doesn’t inherently mean they were impossible to kill.) then code a balance change. Anyone can make changes, anyone can learn to code, the only thing stopping you from making changes is your own unwillingness to do it. If nobody agrees with your change, you’re probably a salty baby and should drink some water and acknowledge that the enemy probably wasn’t unkillable.

ss13 is fairly unique in that you can generally substitute gear/circumstance with pure skill to win fights. Before you reply, I said GENERALLY not always. There are other important factors in combat but I’m ignoring them for the sake of being brief.

The type of thing that I personally would consider to be unbeatable is stuff like the old fusion radiation death wave instakill. That was coded out after it started becoming popular, illustrating my above point. I agree that this sort of thing is lame as frick but they generally get coded out as quickly as they become popular, hardly an administrative issue. You may argue with points such as plasma flooding, virology, mass bombing, etc, and while I agree that those are lame as fuck, I would bet money that if a solid rework (rather than straight nerf/removal) was proposed, it would get merged without much backlash after the initial wave of salty toxins mains is over.

Of course, reworking stuff is difficult. I don’t believe that this makes it any more of administration issue. Antag freedom is a /tg/ staple. Encouraging admins to decide when they want to crack down on their least favorite powergamer for killing security with soap and welding tools is a rabbit hole that will lead to many more issues than the occasional station cleansing. Establishing arbitrary lines for very subjective matters is a very bad experience akin to trying to eat food when you have cuts on your lips and a sore throat; painful and you can’t just choose to ignore it. When would something be considered TOO unfair? When does it stop becoming a coder issue and start being an admin issue? Where is the line drawn for shitty “ban murderbone” threads in FNR? These are the sorts of questions that we don’t get paid to answer.

tl;dr this thread is fucking dumb
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Re: Reactionary Balance: The Rule 0 Discussion

Post by NoxVS » #531603

As much as I hate murderboners (Especially those who are so unrobust that they have to use a radio jammer, you know who you are you degenerate) its impossible to define it exactly. Its better to find a code solution to this. I would code an idea I have but im shit at coding (IE no experience whatsoever) so here it is for anyone who cares

Mental Stability - Decreases when you kill people, increases back to 100 over time, kill a lot of people, lose a lot of mental stability, have side affects and eventually death at the very end.

Problem solved. Define killing as being the last one to have hit them within 2 minutes before their death. A kill here and there wont matter but if you commit mass murder you get dunked by your lack of sanity
The weak should fear the strong
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Re: Reactionary Balance: The Rule 0 Discussion

Post by Shadowflame909 » #531608

I think a PR where your mood goes down when you see people die exists. Glad it wasn't merged as it makes jobs like doctor unbearable.

I dunno, maybe tie your idea into the psychologists job.
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Re: Reactionary Balance: The Rule 0 Discussion

Post by teepeepee » #531610

NoxVS wrote:As much as I hate murderboners (Especially those who are so unrobust that they have to use a radio jammer, you know who you are you degenerate) its impossible to define it exactly. Its better to find a code solution to this. I would code an idea I have but im shit at coding (IE no experience whatsoever) so here it is for anyone who cares

Mental Stability - Decreases when you kill people, increases back to 100 over time, kill a lot of people, lose a lot of mental stability, have side affects and eventually death at the very end.

Problem solved. Define killing as being the last one to have hit them within 2 minutes before their death. A kill here and there wont matter but if you commit mass murder you get dunked by your lack of sanity
how would this work with a plasma fire, radiation memes and other mass murder methods that don't have you touch the victims, like routing disposals to an emagged recycler and lubing floors towards chutes?
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Re: Reactionary Balance: The Rule 0 Discussion

Post by NoxVS » #531616

teepeepee wrote:
NoxVS wrote:As much as I hate murderboners (Especially those who are so unrobust that they have to use a radio jammer, you know who you are you degenerate) its impossible to define it exactly. Its better to find a code solution to this. I would code an idea I have but im shit at coding (IE no experience whatsoever) so here it is for anyone who cares

Mental Stability - Decreases when you kill people, increases back to 100 over time, kill a lot of people, lose a lot of mental stability, have side affects and eventually death at the very end.

Problem solved. Define killing as being the last one to have hit them within 2 minutes before their death. A kill here and there wont matter but if you commit mass murder you get dunked by your lack of sanity
how would this work with a plasma fire, radiation memes and other mass murder methods that don't have you touch the victims, like routing disposals to an emagged recycler and lubing floors towards chutes?
Plasma fires, radiation, and alternative murder methods aren't really a problem I think needs solved. The problem IMO are people who silently pick off the crew and are unstoppable unless you are stocked with gamer gear. People who are killed indirectly tend to be easier to recover, meaning its less likely those methods are used by people who can only have fun by ensuring as many people as possible DONT have fun, because thats what I see as the actual problem - People who use the cheapest method to kill as many people and permanently remove them from the round (Like radio jammer murderbone, I KNOW YOU ARE READING THIS, YOU DISGUST ME)
The weak should fear the strong
thehogshotgun wrote:How does having jannies like you, who have more brain tumor than brain benefit the server
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Re: Reactionary Balance: The Rule 0 Discussion

Post by CPTANT » #531622

NoxVS wrote:
teepeepee wrote:
NoxVS wrote:As much as I hate murderboners (Especially those who are so unrobust that they have to use a radio jammer, you know who you are you degenerate) its impossible to define it exactly. Its better to find a code solution to this. I would code an idea I have but im shit at coding (IE no experience whatsoever) so here it is for anyone who cares

Mental Stability - Decreases when you kill people, increases back to 100 over time, kill a lot of people, lose a lot of mental stability, have side affects and eventually death at the very end.

Problem solved. Define killing as being the last one to have hit them within 2 minutes before their death. A kill here and there wont matter but if you commit mass murder you get dunked by your lack of sanity
how would this work with a plasma fire, radiation memes and other mass murder methods that don't have you touch the victims, like routing disposals to an emagged recycler and lubing floors towards chutes?
Plasma fires, radiation, and alternative murder methods aren't really a problem I think needs solved. The problem IMO are people who silently pick off the crew and are unstoppable unless you are stocked with gamer gear. People who are killed indirectly tend to be easier to recover, meaning its less likely those methods are used by people who can only have fun by ensuring as many people as possible DONT have fun, because thats what I see as the actual problem - People who use the cheapest method to kill as many people and permanently remove them from the round (Like radio jammer murderbone, I KNOW YOU ARE READING THIS, YOU DISGUST ME)
This is extremely rare.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: Reactionary Balance: The Rule 0 Discussion

Post by crashmatusow » #531640

Alternatively we stop giving tots ez mode murder toys, make them improvise a bit
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Re: Reactionary Balance: The Rule 0 Discussion

Post by Flatulent » #531678

crashmatusow wrote:Alternatively we stop giving tots ez mode murder toys, make them improvise a bit
one robust blood bro is more than capable of killing the entire station
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Re: Reactionary Balance: The Rule 0 Discussion

Post by Screemonster » #531991

Vekter wrote:I've always had the (apparently unpopular) opinion that we don't necessarily need a rule to actually get rid of someone who's an obvious strain on the community. If someone rolls up with a ckey like 'killalljews1488', it's pretty obvious they're not here in good faith. If someone's being a cunt, there really shouldn't be some specific rule to make them fuck off. This server is not, and never has been, a full democracy. I'd much rather the admins have the power to clean up the server if need be without having to worry about a bunch of spergs jumping down their throat the moment they do.
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